Tinto Talks #47 - 22nd of January 2025

[cheetawilliam]

Can we have a game option that changes icons like these to percentages? Otherwise there'll probably be a mod for them but for the spreadsheet warriors among us.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

yes

Do they change to copper if the good is especially cheap? Or is it just a silver-gold binary?

 

[matfer13]

If my market has 10% trade efficiency, then the markets I'm selling to will pay 10% more, right? Right?

I don't think markets have trade efficiency, only countries do

 

[Metz]

Capacity is something that you have in a market. That is basically the "presence"

To increase trade capacity you expand infrastructure but this infrastructure can only be built in your own locations? If you expand your port or build warehouses for example, how would trade capacity in foreign markets increase? Can you assign your capacity to different markets based on what markets you depend on?

 

[yangzilata]

Does Strong Protectionism Limit Trade Advantage?​

If protectionism is strong, does that mean merchants won’t export goods, even if there’s a surplus? If that’s the case, wouldn’t that make trade advantage less useful?

1-Trade Advantage and Selective Exports

Trade Advantage
The Trade Advantage of countries in a market determines who will be able to get their exports fulfilled first. If there is a limited amount of supply of goods in a market they get distributed by the trade advantage that each country has in that market.

• Selective Exports? Maybe only certain goods get restricted for export (like essentials), while luxury or non-critical items can still be traded. This would strike a balance between protecting local needs and leveraging trade advantage to make some profit.

2-Market Protection: Full vs. Dynamic

Market Protection
Protectionism is a desire to keep trade within one's own Country. This is represented by one location_modifier and one country_modifier, which reduce locations' likelihood of belonging to foreign markets.

• Full Protectionism? If merchants strictly follow protectionist policies, they might refuse to export surplus goods at all. That could leave a lot of goods stockpiled, which might drive prices down locally. It’s great for the pops, but not so much for producers or the economy overall.
• Dynamic Protectionism? What if protectionism adapts to the market? For example, surplus goods could only be flagged for export once local demand is met. This would allow merchants to export without disrupting the domestic economy. It’s not explicitly mentioned in the dev diary, but it feels like it could fit well with the system.

If protectionism completely blocks exports, it could feel frustrating for players who’ve worked to get a strong trade advantage, especially if they can’t fully benefit from it. On the other hand, weaker protectionism could leave your markets open to foreign influence, which has its own risks.

3-Surpluses and Production Efficiency

Production Efficiency
This impacts the output of buildings. A positive Production Efficiency increases the profit, while a negative may make it not worth keeping open.

• With surpluses piling up due to strong protectionism, production efficiency could drop. Johan explains that a negative efficiency could make some industries unprofitable to operate. Fortunately, this might pressure players to find ways to export or repurpose surplus goods to maintain profitability. I wonder what they would be. Anyone has any ideas? This seems to be a unique new mechanic that we have never seen before!

4-The Costs of Trade Maintenance

Trade Maintenance
Trading is not free, as the ships, wagons, and caravans need to be maintained, and the merchants themselves need to be paid.

• If protectionist policies prevent exports, trade maintenance costs could become wasteful if merchants aren’t maximizing their trade capacity.

Trade Capacity
This is if we have any bonus to how much capacity each merchant has in all our markets. This represents how much a country can export and/or import from a market. Each trade created from this market uses merchant_capacity depending on the distance to the other market, and the volume of goods that trade is doing.

• If protectionism limits exports, then unused trade capacity could represent a missed opportunity for countries with strong logistics infrastructure. Is this a probable scenario?

5-Pop Needs and Starvation Risks and Rebellions

The banner goes red if you have pops in the market that are actively part of a rebel faction.

View attachment 1245975
If any province is starving or likely to starve in the next 6 months, you will see alerts there as well.

• The dev diary mentions that “Pops in a market may lack certain goods, leading to inefficiency or even rebellion. "This means that the well-being of your population depends on having access to the goods they demand.
  
  If protectionism is too strong, it could make it harder to import goods that your domestic economy can’t provide. For example, if your country lacks resources like wine or luxury goods and you block imports through protectionist policies, your pops might start to feel the effects. This could lead to inefficiency in your economy or even unrest if their needs go unmet.
  
  In this case, importing certain goods might be the only way to keep your population satisfied and productive. I think balancing protectionism with the ability to import essential items could be key to avoiding major issues while still protecting your domestic industries. In other words, balancing imports while protecting local industries might be the solution to this dilemma.

What do you all think?​

Would a dynamic system that balances protectionism and exports make gameplay more interesting? Or would you prefer something more straightforward, where one policy just overrides the other?

 

[Metz]

Do prices adjust on a monthly basis? Does the game take into account transportation time or is market presence automatic the moment you are part of it? In other words, are good prices instant to the buying and selling or is there a delay of information (in other words more goods coming in).

 

[Raphael Freitas]

Say im England and i pay a player in the nederlands to expand his output of something I want, is there a permit he can give me to get bigger export priority of his trade node? If not you think it would be a cool mechanic to have it on?

 

[matfer13]

You can use your capacity in a market to export from it and/or import to it, splitting your capacity how you want.

Considering this I have a very specific question, so let's take the same example with the markets of Lubeck and Riga and let's imagine Sweden has trade advantage in both markets but capacity only in Riga, if I want to import goods from Lubeck to Riga I can because I have trade advantage in Lubeck and trade capacity in Riga but what about the opposite? I have trade advantage in Riga yes but I don't have trade capacity in Lubeck so does that mean that I can't create a route to import goods in Lubeck and I have to create an export line from Riga or can I create an import route in Lubeck because I can use the trade capacity in Riga? I think that this should be possible since it's the same thing but I understand that can be difficult to program

 

[LizGanKai]

We got support for the following colorblind types.

View attachment 1246220


With the some examples hown below..


View attachment 1246221View attachment 1246222

A big THANK YOU for that!

Will you add support for anomalous trichromacy (protanomaly, deuteranomaly and tritanomaly)?
Will "Color Blind Mode" apply to map modes?

 

[yangzilata]

Production Efficiency
This impacts the output of buildings. A positive Production Efficiency increases the profit, while a negative may make it not worth keeping open.
Market Attraction
This impacts how much pull a market_center has over a location to make it a part of its market. As we play Sweden here, and currently don’t have a market, it's not that important to us.
Market Protection
Protectionism is a desire to keep trade within one's own Country. This is represented by one location_modifier and one country_modifier, which reduce locations' likelihood of belonging to foreign markets.

---

Question 1: Is This Protectionism or Isolationism?​

Looking at how the game handles these concepts; I can’t help but wonder: does strong protectionism in the game lean more toward isolationism?​

• Protectionism: This is a policy focused on safeguarding domestic industries by controlling imports and exports. It’s about limiting foreign competition while still engaging in trade selectively to benefit your economy. For example, you might allow exports of surplus goods or import only essential items that your country can’t produce.
• Isolationism: This is a much stricter stance, where a country avoids almost all foreign trade and interaction. It’s about complete self-reliance and cutting off ties with other markets altogether. In an isolationist system, there would be no exports or imports, regardless of surplus or shortages.

---

-> How Does the Game Reflect These Ideas? <-​

In the 14th-century context of the game, protectionism would likely involve controlling trade, imposing tariffs, or prioritizing domestic goods. Isolationism, on the other hand, would look like outright blocking all foreign trade, potentially to avoid political or military entanglements.

I think the mechanics described in the dev diary seem closer to protectionism, not isolationism, because:

1. Selective Trade: The game allows for exports and imports based on surplus and demand. For example, goods like wine can be imported to meet pop needs, even under protectionist policies.
2. Market Interactions: The “Trade Advantage” and the ability to maintain trade capacity suggests that international trade still plays a role, even if it’s restricted.
3. Dynamic Systems: The ability to toggle trade automation or adapt to market conditions implies that trade isn’t completely cut off, which would be the case in isolationism.

However, the system could lean toward isolationism if:

• Players adopt extreme protectionist policies that block both imports and exports entirely.
• Trade Maintenance costs discourage any trade unless absolutely necessary, making self-sufficiency the only viable option.

---

-> 14th-Century...​

As far as I know, in the medieval era, most countries weren’t fully isolationist. Trade was essential for acquiring resources that weren’t locally available, such as:

1. Spices,
2. Luxury goods,
3. Well, Specific raw materials...

Protectionism could have existed in the form of:

1. Local trade guilds controlling markets,
2. Tariffs on foreign goods,
3. Prioritizing local production,

Yet, complete isolation would have been rare.

The game’s mechanics should reflect this historical context by ensuring that even strong protectionist policies still allow for limited trade, especially for essential goods. Total isolation might feel unrealistic for the period unless it’s tied to specific events like wars or plagues. I think a dynamic system, where policies adjust based on market conditions, would make the game more interesting and fit the historical context better.

---

Question 2: Can Isolationism Work in This Game?​

The game spans all the way to the 19th century, and that makes me think about Japan during the Sakoku period. Back then, Japan was fully isolationist—they didn’t trade with most of the world except in very controlled ways.

But based on the mechanics in the dev diary, it doesn’t seem like the game allows for full isolationism. Things like trade capacity, trade advantage, and pop needs seem to keep trade active, even if it’s limited.

> True isolationism would mean shutting down most of those systems, right? <<​

This makes me wonder:

1. Could the game have a way to allow full isolationism as a strategy for countries like Japan?
2. If isolationism were possible, how would it play out? Maybe there’d be penalties, like falling behind on tech, but also benefits, like stronger stability or security.
3. Would isolationism need to be flexible? Like, would you have to open up trade in emergencies or stay isolated and deal with the consequences?

What do you all think?​

Should the game include full isolationism as an option, or would that not work with the current mechanics? And how do you think it could evolve over time if it was added?

 

[Muramasa]

Trade Efficiency = This is a modifier to the sell price on a trade.


Trade Maintenance = There is acost for each capacity used in a trade. So trades further away, or using bulkier goods cost more to maintain.

I might be missing something but what element of trade in real life is trade efficiency supposed to be the abstraction of.
I mean I know it was there in previous PDS games but I don’t really get what would make trade more efficient if not lower costs that seem to be are already represented.

Also there is production efficiency but no mention of goods produced modifier. Is it just on another screen or has it been removed altogether.

Thank you for the diary and answers.

 

[Oglesby]

I was hoping that this was more a TT about the UI design and plan or at least more than this one liner.

Our goal has been to give you important information at a glance and reduce the amount of clicks you need to do anything to a minimum.

This ended up being more of a TT on the Markets and trade.

 

[SAmaster]

The UI needs more gold trim.

 

[Ispil]

Trade efficiency seems to make profit out of thin air since you are already selling for the profit margin being accounted for? Who pays the extra 3 gold to the selling merchant if the buyer is paying 60 already? Shouldn’t trade efficiency then be how much of the price difference between two markets you can get away with?

No one. This is not particularly exceptional for their model.

Something worth noting, since it has obtusely come up but is evident, is that pop demands generate money from nothing. What I mean by that is that the pop demand cost is not being applied to the "wealth of the estate". Rather, that is the money generation in this game. You take a satisfaction hit for those pops if they're paying an exceptional amount, but the system is the same: money from nothing.

I fear people might be imagining more of the market than there actually is.

 

[WorrapsnehtroN2707]

On the first image, the number of trade efficiency and production efficiency have poor visibility because of the green background color.

 

[WeLetThatHappen]

For the most part I really like this UI, it's very informative while still being clear and uncluttered. I do however find the red font a little hard to read on the brown background. It's not particularly bad but it does feel like the only thing that's not as clear as it could be.

 

[Miffelman]

I quite like this so far but here are a few nitpicky thigs I've noticed:


I feel that the top list of modifiers should be a bit more compact. Right now a lot of the space feels wasted.

The picture behind the modifiers also impedes readability. I find my brain taking an extra split second to separate text and picture.

Finally, the red text in the pop needs section also seems a bit to close to the light brown background to be easily recognised at a glance. Maybe give it a dark brown box like the price?

 

[Kondio_patrona]

We got support for the following colorblind types.

View attachment 1246220


With the some examples hown below..


View attachment 1246221View attachment 1246222

What type of colour blindness is the bottom picture? .... Because the colours look much better than usual.

We got support for the following colorblind types.

View attachment 1246220


With the some examples hown below..


View attachment 1246221View attachment 1246222

 

[ClarkStuff]

Are we going to have the create custom nations feature like feature like eu4? That feature is so fun to use

 

[Idle America]

Yeah you don't need any substance when you have the crack that is paradox GSGs

Crack is Cheaper.