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Tinto Talks #47 - 22nd of January 2025

Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we give you some information about our entirely secret upcoming game with the codename of Project Caesar.

As mentioned in https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/psa-tinto-talks-topic-change-this-week.1726639/ we have a change of schedule for this week.

Today we’ll go through the market screen and show how it's used in the game. Here I will be playing as Sweden, and this is the 6th iteration of the UI we have done for the economy system as we kept iterating upon it to make it more player friendly. Our goal has been to give you important information at a glance and reduce the amount of clicks you need to do anything to a minimum.


market.png


At the top of the screen you can see the balance tab for all your fun sliders, and the trade tab where all your trades are shown.

First, let's explain all the keywords you see here.

Trade Efficiency
This modifies how much gold you get from trades, by directly impacting the price you sell goods in the target market. A negative will decrease the profit, and could even make a trade unprofitable if the margins are low enough.

Production Efficiency
This impacts the output of buildings. A positive Production Efficiency increases the profit, while a negative may make it not worth keeping open.

Trade Advantage
The Trade Advantage of countries in a market determines who will be able to get their exports fulfilled first. If there is a limited amount of supply of goods in a market they get distributed by the trade advantage that each country has in that market.

Market Attraction
This impacts how much pull a market_center has over a location to make it a part of its market. As we play Sweden here, and currently don’t have a market, it's not that important to us.

Trade Maintenance
Trading is not free, as the ships, wagons, and caravans need to be maintained, and the merchants themselves need to be paid.

Market Protection
Protectionism is a desire to keep trade within one's own Country. This is represented by one location_modifier and one country_modifier, which reduce locations' likelihood of belonging to foreign markets.

Trade Capacity
This is if we have any bonus to how much capacity each merchant has in all our markets. This represents how much a country can export and/or import from a market. Each trade created from this market uses merchant_capacity depending on the distance to the other market, and the volume of goods that trade is doing.

Trade Range
This is simply how far our merchants can reach, and determines how distant the markets we can trade with can be. This is calculated from any market we have merchants in.


Below we have the search bar and filter list. This is something we have in pretty much every screen with a list of objects in Project Caesar. The Search Bar allows you to just type what you look for, and it will check on names, or any other relevant information that is connected to the elements in the list. The filter allows you to toggle any data.

filters.png

These are the filters we have for the market list.


Let’s focus on the market entry of Riga then. This is a UI widget, which we refer to as the Market Card, that you will see in several screens, as it gives you information about the market, while allowing you to quickly do actions.

riga.png

The flag and name do not need to be explained

In the top right corner we have an automation button, which allows you to toggle trade automation for that market.

Below it you will see 5 blue buttons, all with important information.

The first shows the amount of trade capacity available and how much you have in that market. If you click on it, it would open the buildings overview tab, with this market filtered, and with all buildings you have and could build that could increase your trade capacity in that market.

The second shows our position in the market when it comes to trade advantage and clicking it will open up your trades with a filter for the market, so you can quickly change your trades.

The third button shows how many types of goods you have some sort of lack for when it comes to your constructions or the requirements of your buildings in this market. The banner is only shown if there are any goods lacking. Yellow if buildings are inefficient due to lacking of some of the goods and red if there is a blocker. If you click on it you get to the goods screen with the needs and the market filters selected.

The fourth button is similar to the third, but is about the needs of your pops in this market. The banner goes red if you have pops in the market that are actively part of a rebel faction. If you click on it you get to the goods screen with the needs and the market filters selected.

Below here is the tooltip for this button...
pop_needs.png

Yeah, I’d also be upset if I lacked wine…


The fifth button shows the current food balance in the market, and if you click it you go to the food screen, with any locations in the market you can get food from in the filter. If any province is starving or likely to starve in the next 6 months, you will see alerts there as well.


Lets end by taking a quick look at what the goods panel shows when we click the fourth button..

goods.png


Market widget is at the top, as mentioned above, where it acts as a filter for the information displayed below The buttons to the right allow you to quickly toggle to the next market we have presence in, or remove the market filter to see data for your whole country.

Normal search bar and lots of possible filters. The “Pop Needs” filter is present, so the list below only displays the goods that our Pops are currently demanding.

Let’s now explain this list, with 4 entries.

First is the icon of the goods, in a tiny little version, so it works fine with lots of goods at the same time.

Second is a small vertical progress bar, which shows how much goods are in the stockpiles in the filtered market. Obviously empty here.

Third is the monthly balance in the market, which is very red and negative, so we need to do something about it.

Fourth is the price in the market, with gold or silver icons indicating relative price, with Wine being more expensive than the default price, indicating that imports can be profitable here.

Then we have the two buttons for importing and exporting. The export button is greyed out, as there is no surplus. We have some capacity so we could attempt to import about 2 goods of one type.

After that is the Expand RGO button, Cloth can not be expanded as it's not a raw material, but the others are also greyed out, as there are no Wine production in Sweden, and no gold or silver mines. The Sala Silvermine was not present in 1337, but there is a nice DHE for it. If any of the RGOs were available, clicking on the button would open the Expand RGO screen with all locations you own with that raw material in the filter. The number on the button shows the profit of the most profitable RGO of that good you can expand in your territory.

The final button is the “build a building that produces the goods” button. If you click on it, it would open the buildings overview tab, with this market filtered, and with all buildings you have and could build that could produce that good in that market. Now the quick thinking of you will ask: “wine?” Yes, there is a production method for Breweries that can turn fruit into wine.



Cheers, next week we will back the regular scheduled programming.
 
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One trade example.

Your friendly swedish merchant buys 10 units of Coal for in London 50€, as the price for coal there is 5€

He then sells the 10 units of Coal in Riga for 60€ for a profit of 10€as the price for coal there is 6€

Trade Efficiency
With a Trade Efficiency of 5%, he would get an additional 3€ in profit, giving him a total profit of 13€.

Trade Maintenance
Shipping 10 units of between London and Riga required 20 capacity, and the maintenance cost per capacity is 0.10€, adding a cost of 2€ to the trade. If we got a Trade Maintenance reduction of 10%, it would cost 1.8€ to do the trade.

Total Profit is 11.2€

If we instead ship the coal to Lübeck, where the price for coal is 5.5€ and requires 10 capacity to ship, it would be like this.
Base Profit of 5€
Trade Efficiency adds 2,75€ (5% of 55€)
Trade Maintenance is 0.9€ (-10% from 1€)

Total Profit is 6.85€

Now you may think, trading from London to Riga is higher profit, so its clearly better... but, we have 10 more trade capacity in London that could be used on another trade, that could perhaps be similar in profit, and give us a bigger total profit.
So is this all automated, the merchants deciding what trades to make, or human driven?
 
Looking good. Trade advantage - does the market leader ie the country where the market center is, get any default bonus to the advantage?
 
market.png
  • Having 2 outside of the picture and 6 inside is confusing.
  • If we are staying with a picture adjust the alpha layer so it fades more into the background (personally I don't know if we need a picture here, even more so as it make the information hard to see)
  • Should Production Efficiency be move to a tab that has to do with production.
  • Which of these values are market specific? As we are showing multiple markets does that mean none of them or is it showing only the any market values?
  • Is trade maintenance and trade range relevant here? should it be where I am trading? I would look at all of the 'keywords' as ask if they should be somewhere else. This is the markets tab and where I would expect to go for market things.
  • Trade Maintenance is showing an offset, would it be better to show the resultant value instead of remembering the base is and doing the math
  • Trade advantage is listed as -7.5%. 7.5% of what?
  • Is my trade range base + 1100, or is the final range 1100?
  • It looks like buttons are using the same corner radius no matter the button size, this is giving the smaller buttons a rounder feel (like in Market Card) and the taller ones more square (like Create Market and Clear all filters in the next one).
  • I would think about changing with the production main icon (gear) or the automation icon (gear).
  • Why is the food balance sort icon different than the food balance icon in the Market card?
  • Is there anything indicating the 'strength' or 'wealth' of a market on the market


The filter panel
  • I agree with others, if the choice is yes, no or don't care make it a three way button. That filter list could have been 4 tall and not need subgroupings
  • The difference between Presence and Pops?


riga.png
Market Card
  • I don't think that we need evenly sized buttons. The left two are crowded while the third and fourth can shrink
  • So is the ! on the icons because it is a lack? I think it don't work with the banners
  • I like the banners, are you saying that there will be a yellow (~6 month) and red (starving)?
  • How does trading food work, can the market be food positive (+155) and have locations that are starving?
  • For the market position is the second number the total present? As in 2nd of 14, I am assuming so but it is not obvious.
  • How do we see who is above/below us and by how much?
  • Should there be an indication on the amount of Pops I have in the market?
  • Should there be an indication of how much I am making or losing in the market?
  • Again the gear is used both for production and automation, one should change
  • Looking at the Lubeck Market Card,
    • I am seeing a dash for missing building goods (assuming that means none missing) but am still seeing a yellow banner.
    • I would prefer a dash for no capacity instead of 0
    • why is rank greyed out?



pop_needs.png
  • Shouldn't this indicate how many people and where?
  • Do we need underlines? (We don't for the blue words)
  • The title (and subtitle) feel off. This doesn't indicate the pops needs (unless you are calling that something else) only the good that are missing.
  • I don't like the "!" as an indication of a need, but I guess it is the icon for a lack of a need. I still don't like it
  • Once we get past the tutorial stage will there be a way where the red box gets minimized by default?
  • Does the percentage of the lack and the duration of the lack both push the pops towards rebellion?
  • Should this indicate how much of the missing good we are providing? Missing 0.58 of 1 means more than of 5 or 50.


goods.png
  • What is the click through order of the markets? Strongest to weakest? The order that I 'joined' them?
  • What happens to the market card area if I click the X and see the whole country?
  • How do I go back to seeing it by market after I change to whole country?
  • What is the filter in the Market card area for and where do any of the filters selected show?
  • You mention it is markets that I have presence, is there a way to look at markets that I do not yet have presence?
  • What happens to the 'vertical bar' when I am looking at the whole country, average of all the markets? disappears?
  • I see that the monthly balance is more negative than what is lacking in the "Needs" tooltip, is there any way to see where else is lacking? I might want to add more production if I would get the lion's share of the increase, but I might want to help my access instead if that is what is lacking.
  • Why is the production balance icon different in the sort options and the actual entries?
  • Does the sort by 'coin' sort by the absolute value? or the amount of change from base (color of coins)?
  • Aren't there are a lot of goods that are not RGO, do we think having a space dedicated to increase RGO appropriate?
  • Can every good be produced in a building?
  • I think the "-" instead of the "0.00 coin" is preferred
  • If I have something that can be expanded by either RGO or Building is it easy to determine which would be better without having to jump between the "Expand RGO screen" and the "buildings overview tab, with this market filtered, and with all buildings you have and could build that could produce that good in that market"?
  • Would the import/export buttons also grey if I don't have capacity?


Sorry for the flood of words
 
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riga.png

The more I look at it I am wondering if the 3rd and 4th need to be buttons and on the second row. That is a lot of space taken up if there isn't any issues.

What if instead you put the banner on the first row for the 'building needs' and 'pop needs' if there is an issue in the market. I would add another for the starving (red)/ starving soon (yellow). I would still have the tooltip and click action but on the banner instead. This would free up space on the second line to increase the size of the first two buttons (will need it once capacity gets to double digits or if you are in a market in the HRE 24th/102) also leave room for more information. I would keep the food balance but unsure if it needs to be a button with the addition of the food banner to the top line

What would I add in the now vacated space...
  • how much dosh I am making/losing in the market.
  • how many pops I have in the market
 
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no, the burger trades are done AFTER all national trades are done, and all burghers in the market adds all their burghercapacity to the market and try to solve important needs in the market.
Where does the money that the Burghers spend/earn on their trades come from/ go? Is it just abstracted? So we could try and leave them to do the non profitable imports of needed goods?

Also, if you don’t have any needs in the market, will the burger trades still be used? Maybe to reduce prices of any expensive goods?

Final question - is there a way to see the burgher trades? Say for example we want to check that they aren’t doing a really profitable trade that we’d rather use our trade advantage to nab?
 
Where does the money that the Burghers spend/earn on their trades come from/ go? Is it just abstracted? So we could try and leave them to do the non profitable imports of needed goods?

Also, if you don’t have any needs in the market, will the burger trades still be used? Maybe to reduce prices of any expensive goods?

Final question - is there a way to see the burgher trades? Say for example we want to check that they aren’t doing a really profitable trade that we’d rather use our trade advantage to nab?
Burgher trades work off of the burgher estate fund.
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong: all this is national trade. All profits goes straight to the country budget. All merchants here are agents of the state that are paid with part of the trade maintenance. The "private trade" is the butghers trade that is separated from it.

Is this the case. How national/private the production itself it? E.g. can estates produce things themselves without state involvement?
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong: all this is national trade. All profits goes straight to the country budget. All merchants here are agents of the state that are paid with part of the trade maintenance. The "private trade" is the butghers trade that is separated from it.

Is this the case. How national/private the production itself it? E.g. can estates produce things themselves without state involvement?
All production is in buildings (or the "natural location production" of clay and stone and sand that was elaborated on elsewhere, but that isn't that significant) and RGOs. Those buildings are either built by the state or estates. RGOs are upgraded by the state.
 
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Could you explain why you went for a winner takes all system when it comes to trade access? I personally feel like a weighted system makes more sense. If two countries are competing for trade access they will both try to get every bit of exportable good and it will split fairly evenly. But if one country dominates the market they will get the fast majority of what they want.

I really feel like having a very small advantage in TA shouldn't give you priority over someone who's only slightly behind. Of course if you want to represent monopolies of some sort you could implement something like:
1. Having more than x% of TA in a market gives you full priority over everyone
Not a huge fan of this one as it is a kinda binary system with little flexibility

2. Having twice(or some other factor) as much TA as someone else does give you full priority OVER THEM.

All of these systems are more complex for the player as well as more computationally intensive, but I'm not enough of a programmer to know if any would have a real performance impact
 
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If Sweden wanted to buy wine from Portugal how would they get trade capacity down there?
I'd guess either they wouldn't and would need trade capacity in the destination market, and a sufficient trade range to reach that market or to get some sort of holding / extraterritorial building / other (maybe maritime power does give some trade capacity ?) to actually get trade capacity.
 
To be honest: this game seems to be quite...too much compared to Eu4, more like Victoria now. I am afraid of hitting the wall. Hope there will be some options to auto some mechanics for noobs\casuals\learning players who will learn this game step by step, unlocking next mechanics as they want to(just like this was in some way in Eu4 with it's DLC's)
 
The idea that pops lacking goods may revolt is really good, but I think it should be better to limit this behavior to food. During the 14th century there were plenty of peasant revolts in europe, they revolted against their lord to seize stockpiled food despite the risk only because they would starve anyway if they did nothing. This, however, does not apply to cloth, wine, silver or gold. There may be discontent among the populace, but a revolt will occur mainly if they think they have nothing more to lose.
 
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All production is in buildings (or the "natural location production" of clay and stone and sand that was elaborated on elsewhere, but that isn't that significant) and RGOs. Those buildings are either built by the state or estates. RGOs are upgraded by the state.
Yes, but why owns the building? Who gets the profit from selling produced goods? Do the state get all of it, or the estate gets the profit and the state just taxes it?
 
Do we know at this point how much of a role the characters have in project Caesar?

I can't imagine their role and interactions would be as intense as CK3, but I hope they have a bit more to them than games like Vic3 or Hoi4 where they are just a set of buffs to your country, with no other forms of interaction.
 
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