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Tinto Talks #49 - 5th February 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we discuss details from our secret upcoming top secret game with the codename of Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about our disease system.

outbreak.png

This is the tooltip of an outbreak together with the spread...

We have 2 types of diseases, environmental, which does not spread through movement of trade nor movement of people, and those that spread. A disease does not just infect the pops in a location, but can also infect armies.

Each disease has many different attributes, all of which can be complex calculations, and this is a very flexible system entirely modeled through script.

  • A chance for it to spawn each month.
  • How often the disease processes, i.e. how fast it ticks.
  • How quickly it spreads to other pops.
  • How it spreads between location and pops.
  • How quickly it stagnates in a location or unit.
  • How many pops and/or soldiers die or become resistant, each tick.
  • How many pops and/or soldiers die each tick (of the above).
  • The mortality for characters.
  • How quickly resistances decay.
  • How much presence is needed before it spreads to adjacent locations.
  • If you want specific pop types affected…
  • And more…

When diseases are present in a location, the resistance to it builds up, making further outbreaks less effective. Pops, locations and sub units can have resistances. So if pops move around they can bring diseases they have with them that they themselves are immune to. Likewise, a unit carrying disease may spread it to any locations it travels through.

disease_in_location.png

There is a big Smallpox outbreak here in Saint-Marcellin, but the resistance is already nice.


So let's take a detailed look at the different diseases we have.


bubonic_plague.png
Bubonic Plague

With the default options, this will happen in 1346, start somewhere in Central Asia, and spread throughout the Old World.

It spreads relatively quickly and the mortality rate for pops is between 30% to 60%.

A great pestilence that sweeps through busy trade routes, sparing neither low nor high. Those infected suffer black swellings in the groin and armpits, terrible fever, and death. Some believe it is carried by the vermin that scurry in our streets and fields, spreading foul sickness from one poor soul to another.

great_pestilence.png
Great Pestilence


This will spawn in the New World whenever someone from the Old World colonizes a location, and spreads from there. It represents the collection of diseases that the European colonizers brought to the Americas. It can and will spawn at multiple places. It doesn’t impact pops from the Old World as they are immune to most of these.

This has a gigantic mortality effect, killing between 75% to 90% of all pops.

Terrible news reaches us from abroad. Misery and plague sweep the lands, and death runs with them, apparently brought by mysterious bearded foreigners. This plague is not something our elders have ever heard of, and no answers in our ancestors' memories could help us face the catastrophe if it reaches our settlements. Will our people perish, or will we somehow resist when this walking death reaches us?


malaria.png
Malaria


This is an environmental disease that is pretty much permanent in most Sub-Saharan Africa. Most of the local people have limited resistance to it, but any colonizers from abroad will die.

There will be regular outbreaks that can kill 10% to 20% of the pops that do not have resistance in a location.


The ancient bane of humankind, Malaria, is an infectious disease transmitted from person to person by the bite of an infected mosquito. This illness produces chills, headaches, sweating, and a very intense fever that repeats every three to four days.

typhus.png
Typhus


Outbreaks will appear in the areas of the old world where one of the three types of Typhus are endemic. It will also spawn in forest, woods or jungle locations, spreading from there.

It spreads relatively slowly, but the mortality is between 4% to 40%.

This deathly sickness creates on those stricken by it a great deal of fever, a big red rash that might extend over the entire body, and a confusion of the mind that might get worse, to the point of full-on delirium. Those poor souls that reach that point would develop gangrenous lesions and invariably die

influenza.png
Influenza


This will spawn during winter and spread in a relatively short period of time. It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

This kills off on average about 1 in 1000 people, so it is not the most lethal of diseases.

Known by the common folk as the Flu, it is a widely spread sickness with usually mild symptoms like a runny nose or a fever in healthy individuals, but that might be extremely dangerous for those that are too young or too old or already weakened by injury or another malady.

measles.png
Measles

This will spawn in most locations around the world, and it's far more likely to spread in towns or cities.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

It is a bit more deadly than Influenza, but about 2 in 1000 people will die from it.

Measles, also known as morbili, rubeola, and red measles, is a plague that spreads extremely fast from person to person, causing fever, coughs, sneezes, and a great flat rash that eventually covers the entire body. It preys most eagerly on children, who are at great risk of death if they fall on its claws.

smallpox.png
Smallpox


This keeps spawning in most locations around the world, but not in arid or arctic climates. It will spread in a small region and is highly contagious. It's far more likely to spread in locations with a lot of trade.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.


The mortality is between 5% and 30%, so an outbreak where there is low resistance can be deadly.

Smallpox is a terrible disease that produces on the sad victim fever, vomits, and finally an enormous amount of liquid-filled blisters that cover their entire body. The outbreaks of this plague are very deathly and those that survive are commonly left blind for life.




There are ways to reduce the impact of disease in your country. First of all there are medical advances in most ages, and there are also buildings you can build.


First there is the Hospital that you can build in any town or city with at least 20 development. This is available at the start of the game for more advanced countries.


hospital.png


Then after the Scientific Revolution you can research the advance for Medical Schools and build them in your town and cities.

medical_school.png


Next week we will talk about how forming new countries will work…
 
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View attachment 1295162

After watching some gameplay videos, im not sure if a fairly imporant detail is simulated in game. Here’s a map from english wikipedia about the spread of the Black Death. Note the ”approximate border between principality of kiev and the golden horde - passage prohibited for Christians”. From what I’ve seen, there’s no such barrier to slow down the plague from spreading in-game, meaning Russia gets the black death around the same time the Golden Horde does.
most players played unrealistically taking radical measures as if they "magically knew" there is a plague incoming but even that didnt help so i think either the measures do nothing to reduce casualties by like of 10% only . also shutting trade doesnt work , some still get the plague on port first.

i am all for an organic spreading of the plague ck3 style
 
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Is their lategame content for the development of vaccination? It would only be relevant for the last few decades if developed on the historical timeline, but the use of cowpox to inoculate against smallpox would be a nice detail.
 
I don't think this has been asked - are Societies of Pops also exposed to diseases in Locations?
I expect the affirmative, but better safe than sorry well, not for the SoPs
 
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I don't think has been asked - are Societies of Pops also exposed to diseases in Locations?
I expect the affirmative, but better safe than sorry well, not for the SoPs
Deseases exist at the pop level so I don't see why SoPs would be inexplicably immune. Their pops still exist in locations. Plus the Great Pox couldn't devastate the non-state peoples of america if that were the case.
 
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I figure as much, otherwise I was thinking that delaying any (old world) colonization efforts to after the Black Plague has passed might be a good idea
 
I figure as much, otherwise I was thinking that delaying any (old world) colonization efforts to after the Black Plague has passed might be a good idea
The new world will have a black death of their own either way.
And isn't colonialism locked behind an age of discovery advance? It shouldn't even be accessible before the plague.
 
The new world will have a black death of their own either way.
And isn't colonialism locked behind an age of discovery advance? It shouldn't even be accessible before the plague.
No, the Nordic nations or a few of them have the Saga's - it lets Greenland colonize straight up, Iceland too perhaps, and if Sweden doesn't start off with their special Scandinavia-only colonization then at least they can unlock it sooner than Iberia can colonize South America.
 
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The new world will have a black death of their own either way.
And isn't colonialism locked behind an age of discovery advance? It shouldn't even be accessible before the plague.
Colonization is available to everyone from the start, Sweden and Novgorod don’t have some special mechanic to colonize Finland earlier than should be possible, but distant overseas colonies may be prohibitively expensive even once discovered and you need them to be within naval range. From what I can tell it’s expected that you’ll do most exploring in late-renaissance and discovery though, since it’s the Age of Discovery where you get stuff like recruiting explorers and whatnot. I am a bit worried it will be too easy to discover America a century ahead of schedule though. While it was technically possible players shouldn’t be able to pull that off by accident.
 
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Colonization is available to everyone from the start, Sweden and Novgorod don’t have some special mechanic to colonize Finland earlier than should be possible, but distant overseas colonies may be prohibitively expensive even once discovered and you need them to be within naval range. From what I can tell it’s expected that you’ll do most exploring in late-renaissance and discovery though, since it’s the Age of Discovery where you get stuff like recruiting explorers and whatnot. I am a bit worried it will be too easy to discover America a century ahead of schedule though. While it was technically possible players shouldn’t be able to pull that off by accident.
True, my bad. Sweden only has a cabinet action that speeds that up along. Thanks for the clarification. It all comes down to colonial range in the end, for overseas colonisation.
 
Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

family_sagas.png


Icelandic culture Government Reform TT #40
 
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So let's take a detailed look at the different diseases we have.


View attachment 1250961Bubonic Plague
With the default options, this will happen in 1346, start somewhere in Central Asia, and spread throughout the Old World.

It spreads relatively quickly and the mortality rate for pops is between 30% to 60%.

A great pestilence that sweeps through busy trade routes, sparing neither low nor high. Those infected suffer black swellings in the groin and armpits, terrible fever, and death. Some believe it is carried by the vermin that scurry in our streets and fields, spreading foul sickness from one poor soul to another.

View attachment 1250959Great Pestilence

This will spawn in the New World whenever someone from the Old World colonizes a location, and spreads from there. It represents the collection of diseases that the European colonizers brought to the Americas. It can and will spawn at multiple places. It doesn’t impact pops from the Old World as they are immune to most of these.

This has a gigantic mortality effect, killing between 75% to 90% of all pops.

Terrible news reaches us from abroad. Misery and plague sweep the lands, and death runs with them, apparently brought by mysterious bearded foreigners. This plague is not something our elders have ever heard of, and no answers in our ancestors' memories could help us face the catastrophe if it reaches our settlements. Will our people perish, or will we somehow resist when this walking death reaches us?


View attachment 1250958Malaria

This is an environmental disease that is pretty much permanent in most Sub-Saharan Africa. Most of the local people have limited resistance to it, but any colonizers from abroad will die.

There will be regular outbreaks that can kill 10% to 20% of the pops that do not have resistance in a location.


The ancient bane of humankind, Malaria, is an infectious disease transmitted from person to person by the bite of an infected mosquito. This illness produces chills, headaches, sweating, and a very intense fever that repeats every three to four days.

View attachment 1250957Typhus

Outbreaks will appear in the areas of the old world where one of the three types of Typhus are endemic. It will also spawn in forest, woods or jungle locations, spreading from there.

It spreads relatively slowly, but the mortality is between 4% to 40%.

This deathly sickness creates on those stricken by it a great deal of fever, a big red rash that might extend over the entire body, and a confusion of the mind that might get worse, to the point of full-on delirium. Those poor souls that reach that point would develop gangrenous lesions and invariably die

View attachment 1250956Influenza

This will spawn during winter and spread in a relatively short period of time. It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

This kills off on average about 1 in 1000 people, so it is not the most lethal of diseases.

Known by the common folk as the Flu, it is a widely spread sickness with usually mild symptoms like a runny nose or a fever in healthy individuals, but that might be extremely dangerous for those that are too young or too old or already weakened by injury or another malady.

View attachment 1250955Measles
This will spawn in most locations around the world, and it's far more likely to spread in towns or cities.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

It is a bit more deadly than Influenza, but about 2 in 1000 people will die from it.

Measles, also known as morbili, rubeola, and red measles, is a plague that spreads extremely fast from person to person, causing fever, coughs, sneezes, and a great flat rash that eventually covers the entire body. It preys most eagerly on children, who are at great risk of death if they fall on its claws.

View attachment 1250954Smallpox

This keeps spawning in most locations around the world, but not in arid or arctic climates. It will spread in a small region and is highly contagious. It's far more likely to spread in locations with a lot of trade.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.


The mortality is between 5% and 30%, so an outbreak where there is low resistance can be deadly.

Smallpox is a terrible disease that produces on the sad victim fever, vomits, and finally an enormous amount of liquid-filled blisters that cover their entire body. The outbreaks of this plague are very deathly and those that survive are commonly left blind for life.




There are ways to reduce the impact of disease in your country. First of all there are medical advances in most ages, and there are also buildings you can build.


First there is the Hospital that you can build in any town or city with at least 20 development. This is available at the start of the game for more advanced countries.




Then after the Scientific Revolution you can research the advance for Medical Schools and build them in your town and cities.



Next week we will talk about how forming new countries will work…

View attachment 1250961Bubonic Plague
With the default options, this will happen in 1346, start somewhere in Central Asia, and spread throughout the Old World.

It spreads relatively quickly and the mortality rate for pops is between 30% to 60%.

A great pestilence that sweeps through busy trade routes, sparing neither low nor high. Those infected suffer black swellings in the groin and armpits, terrible fever, and death. Some believe it is carried by the vermin that scurry in our streets and fields, spreading foul sickness from one poor soul to another.

View attachment 1250959Great Pestilence

This will spawn in the New World whenever someone from the Old World colonizes a location, and spreads from there. It represents the collection of diseases that the European colonizers brought to the Americas. It can and will spawn at multiple places. It doesn’t impact pops from the Old World as they are immune to most of these.

This has a gigantic mortality effect, killing between 75% to 90% of all pops.

Terrible news reaches us from abroad. Misery and plague sweep the lands, and death runs with them, apparently brought by mysterious bearded foreigners. This plague is not something our elders have ever heard of, and no answers in our ancestors' memories could help us face the catastrophe if it reaches our settlements. Will our people perish, or will we somehow resist when this walking death reaches us?


View attachment 1250958Malaria

This is an environmental disease that is pretty much permanent in most Sub-Saharan Africa. Most of the local people have limited resistance to it, but any colonizers from abroad will die.

There will be regular outbreaks that can kill 10% to 20% of the pops that do not have resistance in a location.


The ancient bane of humankind, Malaria, is an infectious disease transmitted from person to person by the bite of an infected mosquito. This illness produces chills, headaches, sweating, and a very intense fever that repeats every three to four days.

View attachment 1250957Typhus

Outbreaks will appear in the areas of the old world where one of the three types of Typhus are endemic. It will also spawn in forest, woods or jungle locations, spreading from there.

It spreads relatively slowly, but the mortality is between 4% to 40%.

This deathly sickness creates on those stricken by it a great deal of fever, a big red rash that might extend over the entire body, and a confusion of the mind that might get worse, to the point of full-on delirium. Those poor souls that reach that point would develop gangrenous lesions and invariably die

View attachment 1250956Influenza

This will spawn during winter and spread in a relatively short period of time. It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

This kills off on average about 1 in 1000 people, so it is not the most lethal of diseases.

Known by the common folk as the Flu, it is a widely spread sickness with usually mild symptoms like a runny nose or a fever in healthy individuals, but that might be extremely dangerous for those that are too young or too old or already weakened by injury or another malady.

View attachment 1250955Measles
This will spawn in most locations around the world, and it's far more likely to spread in towns or cities.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

It is a bit more deadly than Influenza, but about 2 in 1000 people will die from it.

Measles, also known as morbili, rubeola, and red measles, is a plague that spreads extremely fast from person to person, causing fever, coughs, sneezes, and a great flat rash that eventually covers the entire body. It preys most eagerly on children, who are at great risk of death if they fall on its claws.

View attachment 1250954Smallpox

This keeps spawning in most locations around the world, but not in arid or arctic climates. It will spread in a small region and is highly contagious. It's far more likely to spread in locations with a lot of trade.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.


The mortality is between 5% and 30%, so an outbreak where there is low resistance can be deadly.

Smallpox is a terrible disease that produces on the sad victim fever, vomits, and finally an enormous amount of liquid-filled blisters that cover their entire body. The outbreaks of this plague are very deathly and those that survive are commonly left blind for life.
You're telling me that the population of the American continent will be devastated, first by the "Great Pestilence" at a rate of 75 to 90%, and then other diseases like "Smallpox" will arrive, decimating the population by 5 to 30%, and other diseases to a lesser extent.

Could you explain how these will work in more detail, because until now it is understood that the American continent will be depopulated about 40 years after the arrival of Europeans, with a 90% mortality rate from the Great Pestilence, followed by Smallpox at 5 to 30%. The data shows that this mortality was not only due to the diseases brought but also to wars, the mistreatment of indigenous people by the colonizers, slavery, etc.

Here are some quotes and sources that support what I'm saying:

Frontiers (The immunogenetic impact of European colonization in the Americas):"Following European contact and the ensuing massacres, wars, poor social conditions, and epidemics, Native Americans experienced a severe population decline, with depopulation estimates ranging from 75% to 95% (Dobyns, 1966; Livi-Bacci, 2006)."

(How Colonization's Death Toll May Have Affected Earth's Climate): "As the 15th century drew to a close, some 60 million people lived in the Americas... But with the arrival of the first European settlers, waves of new diseases, along with warfare, slavery, and other brutalities, would kill an estimated 56 million people, or about 90 percent of the indigenous population."

What would be the point of playing with a state on the American continent if, after 150 years, your entire population would be decimated by the arrival of Europeans, and you couldn't do anything to stop it? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Also, will the countries of the American continent have hospitals available? I ask because, as always, you start with several technologies less than Europe, and it's difficult to spread institutions.
 
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What would be the point of playing with a state on the American continent if, after 150 years, your entire population would be decimated by the arrival of Europeans, and you couldn't do anything to stop it? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Also, will the countries of the American continent have hospitals available? I ask because, as always, you start with several technologies less than Europe, and it's difficult to spread institutions.
This is a good question. Similar to how players in Eurasia have to play around the coming of the Black Death (though some say their actions have such little impact that it might be pointless) it seems rather obvious that players in the Americas will beeline for Plague Resistance Advancements and buildings, perhaps migrating westward if possible to eke out a decade or two more to get tech and build hospitals etc.
 
In all honesty, as a medical student who struggles with learning infectious diseases, this tinto talks has helped every time i need to think of symptoms of measles, or differentiate measles from rubella. Measles and rubella are very similar in a number of ways, but one way they are different is that measles causes conjunctivitis whereas rubella does not. And every time i answer a question about that, i literally picture this icon in my head
 
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