Tinto Talks #49 - 5th February 2025

[zeruosi]

Without qualifiers of what it is made of I would say that wine is "the alcoholic fermented juice of fresh grapes used as a beverage"

With qualifiers of what is it made of it would open to "the alcoholic usually fermented juice of a plant product (such as a fruit) used as a beverage", such as rice wine, blackberry wine, or dandelion wine.

Thank you very much

 

[zeruosi]

Please, consider the possibility of The Great Pestilence to spawn in Australia/Oceania when europeans arrive in this continent too.

I think this may be difficult Unless immigration from Asian countries is completely prohibited. Otherwise, Australia will definitely be filled with immigrants from various Asian countries

 

[pablopez130]

Only worried about Malaria. I think the death rate should be greater than this and the locations should include Amazonia and the Southeast Asia.

 

[Bigsoulja9]

Other than the Atlantic archipelagos, pre 19th century Portuguese presence in the African sub saharan mainland was confined to coastal (or riverine) settlements.

While Portuguese communities (mainly Luanda, Benguela, Ilha de Moçambique, and Sofala) did form, their growth was severely hampered by frequent outbreaks of "fevers" which imposed a heavy death toll.

Not exactly. The Portuguese did extend influence, sometimes quite substantial, over some inland African states (ie: Mutapa, very briefly Ethiopia). The problem, is that they were expelled from these regions (Zimbabwe Plateau, Ethiopia), and lacked the logistical support, military ability, and/or will to reassert themselves.

As I mentioned, many Portuguese communities were populated by Afro-Portuguese descendants who would have inherited disease resistances. In addition, those who survive in regions with endemic diseases will, over generations, develop some resistance to those diseases (transferred via biological mechanisms like breast milk).

There were thus noticeable Lusophone communities in Kongo, Angola, in Ethiopia (for a time), and scattered across Southern Africa. In Southern Africa, these were to at least result in the formation of various feiras (trade outposts). In Kongo, these were to erode as the state declined into civil wars, and in Southern Africa, they were to become increasingly isolated due to declining support from abroad, especially with the expulsion of the Portuguese from the Swahili coast. The Angolan one was thus the most stable and successful.

 

[SAmaster]

Are cities more resistant to disease than rural areas?

Urban centers generally have better sanitation, clearer water, and access to medicine compared to non-urban areas. Will cities have built-in resistance to diseases, while rural or nomadic settlements suffer more due to poor hygiene and lack of medical care?

Dude to this day they aren't. Just a few years ago during COVID big cities like New York were epicenters of the disease thanks to the population density and large number of people coming and going, while rural areas due to their lower population density and less people coming and going weren't as hard hit.

 

[sukipanda]

Why are the Columbian pandemics treated all as a single unique disease rather than as the various different epidemics, that are already represented in the game, as in real life? In real life the main pandemic was just smallpox, which you have all the mechanics to properly represent the spread of in game, and would make more sense to be represented as a normal disease being spread by trade rather than being triggered, seemingly immediately, by the act of colonization, which is more accurate to my knowledge since the pandemics did not begin upon the first colonies in the Carribean but rather after Smallpox was introduced by Spanish soldiers during Cortez's conquests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics#European_contact

 

[Batat137]

Why are the Columbian pandemics treated all as a single unique disease rather than as the various different epidemics, that are already represented in the game, as in real life? In real life the main pandemic was just smallpox, which you have all the mechanics to properly represent the spread of in game, and would make more sense to be represented as a normal disease being spread by trade rather than being triggered, seemingly immediately, by the act of colonization, which is more accurate to my knowledge since the pandemics did not begin upon the first colonies in the Carribean but rather after Smallpox was introduced by Spanish soldiers during Cortez's conquests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics#European_contact

Maybe to add to this; there is still an ongoing debate whether the initial spread of the European diseases was as devastating as commonly portrayed. There is evidence that while the initial shock of the European diseases was substantial it wasn't "more" than black death in Europe - and what did the native population in was subsequent outbreaks of native diseases due to the warfare, hunger and, ultimately, the horrors of encomienda.

 

[Smiths]

I posted something along similar lines. But some people seem to disagree on this basing themselves on the erroneous belelief that people dying as a consequence of colonial explotarion, must mean they were literally executed.

 

[Sutixela]

Any chance for the change of the colors of the map to make it look something more like menacing?

Green feels like something positive or good is spreading. On the other hand, CK3's plague effect on the map is straight up nightmare fuel; those pulsating shades of blood-red and black really gives the feeling of impending doom spreading through the lands.

 

[Voluntad de Rey]

Will the Great Pestilence stop at some point? How it is determined when new world population become immune or resistance to the this? Will the death percentage go down by the time or they become immune all at once?

 

[hardom]

small request:

can we have Malaria be endemic in places like marshes in Northern Italy or South of Rome, given how it was historically present there?

and ofc if it can be built a land reclaimaton building to "drain" the swamp and to give :

a small rgo production boost to the location

an effect that increases by a lot the Malaria resistance in the area

all of this without changing the terrain type and still leaving it as a marsh ofc

also, you could create a more powerful version (as in, bigger RGO production boost) of this building unlockable as an exclusive advance for the Dutch culture

Malaria is present in all of southern Europe, Middle East marshlands and China, I think this climatic restriction is to abstract where it was much worse

 

[hardom]

It got a steam release under the name Plague Inc. Was pretty fun

I remember Pandemic from Kongregate back in like 2009

 

[Polesie Admiral]

It is called Beeswax, but represents all apiary goods including honey as it's also used to produce wine using a mead production method, and beer using a mjölska production method.

btw do Pskov and Novgorod produce it?

 

[JoanK]

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we discuss details from our secret upcoming top secret game with the codename of Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about our disease system.

View attachment 1250950
This is the tooltip of an outbreak together with the spread...

We have 2 types of diseases, environmental, which does not spread through movement of trade nor movement of people, and those that spread. A disease does not just infect the pops in a location, but can also infect armies.

Each disease has many different attributes, all of which can be complex calculations, and this is a very flexible system entirely modeled through script.

• A chance for it to spawn each month.
• How often the disease processes, i.e. how fast it ticks.
• How quickly it spreads to other pops.
• How it spreads between location and pops.
• How quickly it stagnates in a location or unit.
• How many pops and/or soldiers die or become resistant, each tick.
• How many pops and/or soldiers die each tick (of the above).
• The mortality for characters.
• How quickly resistances decay.
• How much presence is needed before it spreads to adjacent locations.
• If you want specific pop types affected…
• And more…

When diseases are present in a location, the resistance to it builds up, making further outbreaks less effective. Pops, locations and sub units can have resistances. So if pops move around they can bring diseases they have with them that they themselves are immune to. Likewise, a unit carrying disease may spread it to any locations it travels through.

View attachment 1250951
There is a big Smallpox outbreak here in Saint-Marcellin, but the resistance is already nice.


So let's take a detailed look at the different diseases we have.


View attachment 1250961Bubonic Plague
With the default options, this will happen in 1346, start somewhere in Central Asia, and spread throughout the Old World.

It spreads relatively quickly and the mortality rate for pops is between 30% to 60%.

A great pestilence that sweeps through busy trade routes, sparing neither low nor high. Those infected suffer black swellings in the groin and armpits, terrible fever, and death. Some believe it is carried by the vermin that scurry in our streets and fields, spreading foul sickness from one poor soul to another.

View attachment 1250959Great Pestilence

This will spawn in the New World whenever someone from the Old World colonizes a location, and spreads from there. It represents the collection of diseases that the European colonizers brought to the Americas. It can and will spawn at multiple places. It doesn’t impact pops from the Old World as they are immune to most of these.

This has a gigantic mortality effect, killing between 75% to 90% of all pops.

Terrible news reaches us from abroad. Misery and plague sweep the lands, and death runs with them, apparently brought by mysterious bearded foreigners. This plague is not something our elders have ever heard of, and no answers in our ancestors' memories could help us face the catastrophe if it reaches our settlements. Will our people perish, or will we somehow resist when this walking death reaches us?


View attachment 1250958Malaria

This is an environmental disease that is pretty much permanent in most Sub-Saharan Africa. Most of the local people have limited resistance to it, but any colonizers from abroad will die.

There will be regular outbreaks that can kill 10% to 20% of the pops that do not have resistance in a location.


The ancient bane of humankind, Malaria, is an infectious disease transmitted from person to person by the bite of an infected mosquito. This illness produces chills, headaches, sweating, and a very intense fever that repeats every three to four days.

View attachment 1250957Typhus

Outbreaks will appear in the areas of the old world where one of the three types of Typhus are endemic. It will also spawn in forest, woods or jungle locations, spreading from there.

It spreads relatively slowly, but the mortality is between 4% to 40%.

This deathly sickness creates on those stricken by it a great deal of fever, a big red rash that might extend over the entire body, and a confusion of the mind that might get worse, to the point of full-on delirium. Those poor souls that reach that point would develop gangrenous lesions and invariably die

View attachment 1250956Influenza

This will spawn during winter and spread in a relatively short period of time. It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

This kills off on average about 1 in 1000 people, so it is not the most lethal of diseases.

Known by the common folk as the Flu, it is a widely spread sickness with usually mild symptoms like a runny nose or a fever in healthy individuals, but that might be extremely dangerous for those that are too young or too old or already weakened by injury or another malady.

View attachment 1250955Measles
This will spawn in most locations around the world, and it's far more likely to spread in towns or cities.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.

It is a bit more deadly than Influenza, but about 2 in 1000 people will die from it.

Measles, also known as morbili, rubeola, and red measles, is a plague that spreads extremely fast from person to person, causing fever, coughs, sneezes, and a great flat rash that eventually covers the entire body. It preys most eagerly on children, who are at great risk of death if they fall on its claws.

View attachment 1250954Smallpox

This keeps spawning in most locations around the world, but not in arid or arctic climates. It will spread in a small region and is highly contagious. It's far more likely to spread in locations with a lot of trade.It will not appear in the Americas until the Great Pestilence has ravaged the continent fully.


The mortality is between 5% and 30%, so an outbreak where there is low resistance can be deadly.

Smallpox is a terrible disease that produces on the sad victim fever, vomits, and finally an enormous amount of liquid-filled blisters that cover their entire body. The outbreaks of this plague are very deathly and those that survive are commonly left blind for life.




There are ways to reduce the impact of disease in your country. First of all there are medical advances in most ages, and there are also buildings you can build.


First there is the Hospital that you can build in any town or city with at least 20 development. This is available at the start of the game for more advanced countries.


View attachment 1250953

Then after the Scientific Revolution you can research the advance for Medical Schools and build them in your town and cities.

View attachment 1250952

Next week we will talk about how forming new countries will work…

Huh, it's a bit weird that Malaria is limited to Sub-Saharan Africa when, historically, it was pretty much everywhere, at least across much of Europe. it's only in the 20th Century that it has been pushed back and contained in tropical regions.

 

[Alexander White]

Very excited about this. my greatest hope is that "Project Caesar" will capture what EU4 never quite did: the pervasive sense of crisis that existed in the early modern period. this wasn't a time of straightforward progress, it was a time what nations were brought to their knees by the little Ice age and the steady increase of the population and level of development was punctuated by catastrophes. in EU4 on the other hand once you pass a certain point you never really have to worry about anything other than how quickly you can blob.

 

[Kvesir]

Unrelated to the game but eradicating smallpox is humanity's greatest achievement. Can we just be thankful for that for a moment

 

[Cooleatack]

We talked about it, but its abstracted away.

Could it please be reconsidered for Sardinia? As far as I am aware, it caused part of the population to gain a natural resistance to malaria, and was influential in how it shaped the culture and behavior of Sardinians. From a quick search it also seems to have been a great obstacle to besieging armies.

It would make the island more unique within Europe at the very least.

 

[WeissRaben]

ummm， But I will definitely play elsewhere. And after the Great Plague, my strength will be reduced to one in ten, how can I defeat the colonizers.

It is worth noting that the historical death toll was increased - massively, it can be assumed, though it's hard to estimate conclusively - by the complete destruction of social structures and by the conditions inflicted by the colonizers themselves. It was never going to be a walk in the park, but expecting a solid Inca Empire which hasn't been mauled by two civil wars back-to-back and then destroyed by invaders which dismantled its administrative structures to "merely" suffer Black Death fatalities isn't out of the question.

 

[M Sohl]

Huh, it's a bit weird that Malaria is limited to Sub-Saharan Africa when, historically, it was pretty much everywhere, at least across much of Europe. it's only in the 20th Century that it has been pushed back and contained in tropical regions.

This map shows not the extent of malaria disease, but the extent of malaria friendly factors. This is where malaria could exist. As you can see there are a lot of areas around the world where the disease has existed historically, and where it could exist. But, sub sahara, New Guinea, south east asia and so on stands out extremely. It is reasonable to think that the game abstract it så that only the red areas are affected in the game, as it is there the disease has a real impact on history.

 

[Adolfhipsteryolocaust]

Malaria should definetly be a disease in the po valley