Tinto Talks #51 - 19th of February 2025

[Sevonen]

• It is not obvious what the parenthetical numbers represent. mayby it needs a title

numbers in the parenthesis are how many resources you gain/lose per year and numbers outside of the parenthesis are how many are stockpiled in the market

 

[Zerodv]

Even though many people seem to disagree, I'm going to say that I personally like the concept of certain mechanics being exclusive to specific regions. Conquistadors existed as a result of the unique socioeconomic and political conditions in Spain at that particular time, shaped by the history of Iberia. I believe countries should be inherently different from each other rather than generic. The way Spain handles colonization should be fundamentally different from how, say, England or even Italy does it. When every nation follows the same mechanics, you end up with a generic system that only differs in appearance but not in function.

That said, if Iberian nations receive unique mechanics, other colonial powers should as well. As some have pointed out, charter companies should be a feature for the British Isles or even the French under Colbert. The Dutch capitalist (or proto-capitalist, depending on your preferred historical perspective) approach should differ from Spain's conquistadors and Britain's charter companies, and so on.

Just because England goes fully Catholic doesn’t mean conquistadors should suddenly become central to its playstyle (in fact, history shows that didn’t happen under Queen Mary). The same applies to France. I would much rather play a unique country with a distinct and enjoyable experience than a generic nation with only superficial differences (that kind of design philosophy is how you end up with a certain civilization-based game currently in its seventh iteration—wink wink).

If I'm not able as France to replicate what Spain did in the Americas in terms of pace of conquest specifically because I lack conquistadores then I disagree with them being exclusive, there is no serious argument that supports the idea that the Spanish were successful in the Americas specifically specifically because of institutions or mentality they inherited from events that ended 2-3 centuries prior(keeping Granada as a tributary for 250 years doesn't count as "reconquista" experience to me frankly).

Sure you can make many aspects of how conquistadores work exclusive, for example them becoming governors or such, but it shouldn't function a superpower exclusive to Iberian(and if it is a thing it should at the very least be exclusive to Castillians, given Portuguese never conquered as much as the Spanish did, especially not in the Americas and they stopped having a frontier with Muslim states 250 years before Castille)

 

[Karl I]

If I'm not able as France to replicate what Spain did in the Americas in terms of pace of conquest specifically because I lack conquistadores then I disagree with them being exclusive, there is no serious argument that supports the idea that the Spanish were successful in the Americas specifically specifically because of institutions or mentality they inherited from events that ended 2-3 centuries prior(keeping Granada as a tributary for 250 years doesn't count as "reconquista" experience to me frankly).

Sure you can make many aspects of how conquistadores work exclusive, for example them becoming governors or such, but it shouldn't function a superpower exclusive to Iberian(and if it is a thing it should at the very least be exclusive to Castillians, given Portuguese never conquered as much as the Spanish did, especially not in the Americas and they stopped having a frontier with Muslim states 250 years before Castille)

If you play as France, you literally shouldn’t be able to just copy and paste what the Spanish did in America lmao. If that’s what you want, go play Spain. A country having an advantage in something doesn’t make it inherently bad. No one complains that the British excel at naval power or that the Russians have an abundance of manpower, for example. If the French want to replicate what the Spanish did, they should find ways to compensate for their disadvantages. That’s the whole point of strategy.

In regards to the Portuguese.... they did have their version of conquistadores: they were called Bandeirantes. Idk about you but Brazil isnt a small portion of land, last time I check it was like the *biggest* South American country soo I dont get the "portuguese never conquered as much as the Spanish did", though I agree that the Portuguese shouldn't have a copy paste Conquistadores either.

 

[Zerodv]

If you play as France, you literally shouldn’t be able to just copy and paste what the Spanish did in America lmao.

In regards to the Portuguese.... they did have their version of conquistadores: they were called Bandeirantes. Idk about you but Brazil isnt a small portion of land, last time I check it was like the *biggest* South American country soo I dont get the "portuguese never conquered as much as the Spanish did", though I agree that the Portuguese shouldn't have a copy paste Conquistadores either.

You made no actual argument as to why what Spain did or the way their conquest happened depended primarily on their history, you just stated it as a fact.

"No one complains that the British excel at naval power"

Well they should if it's excessive, I should be able to approach what historical states did if I want to, Spain might have a leg up with a few special mechanics, techs or units but you fundamentally should be able to do what Spain does, if 25% slower or something like that. If conquistadores are the only way to rapidly expand in the Americas and the English are locked into doing what 17th century England did even if they have a native Mexico in front of them and it's the year 1520, then something is fundamentally broken about the game.


Portuguese expansion in Brazil was far slower and it's apple and oranges.

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

Historically speaking, various conquistadors tried to become independent from Castile and had to be controlled by Royal troops coming from Iberia. For instance, Hernán Cortés grew increasingly fond of his newly acquired power and the Spanish governor of Cuba had to fight him in order to guarantre that he (and New Spain as a whole) woulf stay loyal to the King. Will these sort of events with conquistadors take place? Say, they become to powerful that they might become independent right away and its overlord must fight back at them.

Also, various conquistadors went out exploring their own way and ended up randomly coinciding in the same place. This happened in New Granada, were Gonzalo Jiménez de Quesada (coming from the Caribbean), Nikolaus Federmann (from the German colony of Klein-Venedig) and Sebastián de Belalcazar (coming from the resently conquered Inca Empire) found themselves "discovering" the same land at almost the same time. Then, a series of skirmishes between them followed for the right to be named governor of that "new" area. Could we see wars or battles between conquistadors in such cases?

 

[Zerodv]

Could we see wars or battles between conquistadors in such cases?

Considering that expeditions are not spontaneous and seem far larger and more organized than IRL I would think this won't happen.

 

[Karl I]

You made no actual argument as to why what Spain did or the way their conquest happened depended primarily on their history, you just stated it as a fact.

"No one complains that the British excel at naval power"

Well they should if it's excessive, I should be able to approach what historical states did if I want to, Spain might have a leg up with a few special mechanics, techs or units but you fundamentally should be able to do what Spain does, if 25% slower or something like that. If conquistadores are the only way to rapidly expand in the Americas and the English are locked into doing what 17th century England did even if they have a native Mexico in front of them and it's the year 1520, then something is fundamentally broken about the game.


Portuguese expansion in Brazil was far slower and it's apple and oranges.

I haven’t seen anything that suggests conquistadors provide anything excessive. I don’t get why you’re arguing from that point of view. The only thing the dev diary show is that the Iberians have something unique to them. Saying that they will or wont be excessive is literally meaningless and a waste of time since we don't even know how they will actually work from a mechanic pov besides the concept itself

I also don’t understand why you’re moving the goalposts. My point isn’t to “prove” that X, Y, or Z ended up the way they did solely because of what happened before. My main concern is that different realms should play and function fundamentally differently from one another. Copy-pasting mechanics for everyone is never a good idea, as it makes them generic, watered down, and removes any unique or interesting aspects specific to each realm.

 

[Oglesby]

numbers in the parenthesis are how many resources you gain/lose per year and numbers outside of the parenthesis are how many are stockpiled in the market

I still state that this isn't obvious. Should be two columns. All the number columns should be center aligned around the decimal points.

Why per year if most things are per month?

 

[Zerodv]

I haven’t seen anything that suggests conquistadors provide anything excessive. I don’t get why you’re arguing from that point of view.

I just stated an hypothetical and even in that hypothetical you disagreed with me, lol

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

I hope that historical conquistadors can spawn in the game, such as Gonzalo Jiménez de Quesada, Rodrigo de Bástidas, Hernando de Soto, Ponce de León, Sebastián de Belalcázar, etc.

Also, Augsburg should get an event to get a conquistador, Nikolaus Federmann, to simulate the Klein-Venedig colony they had in South America. If they loose that conquistador, they don't have access to more.

 

[Tercio Soldier]

For Portugal the reconquista ended almost 250 years before game start, for Aragon too... why would people in 1492 living in Portugal or Aragon know about this ? There is a far stronger argument for Iceland having access to exploration than there is for this because Icelanders actually kept up a lifestyle of long sea distance trading, what did Portuguese and Aragonese do between 1292-1492 that justifies this? They had no frontier with Muslims, they pretty much resemble Norman Sicily more than they resemble Spain where Granada survived for longer.

I also don't see the connection between a frontier society and long distance oversea expeditions, the 2 couldn't be more unlike each other. Your argument especially doesn't even justify conquistadores as a useful mechanic to have, you talk about mainly administrative and societla structures but conquistadores are not just or mainly that, they are a seemingly QoL tool to conquer large swaths of the Americas

1. It doesn't make sense for Aragon to colonize anyways, doesn't matter if they have the ability.

2. The Portuguese kept fighting the muslims. Just after game start, they fight against a Moroccan inavsion allied with Castile (1340). In 1415 Portugal conquers Ceuta. After that they conquer Tangiers and other Morocca cities in the 1460s-1470s.

3. Even if the frontier disappears, the legal systems, cultural traditions and privileges gifted don't disappear. Feudalism wasn't really a thing in Iberia like in the rest of Europe because of the privileges gifted during the Reconquista. That has lasting effects in the society.

4. The Spanish conquistadors were not high nobility, but hidalgos (like Cortés and Pizarro) or even lawyers (Quesada). The hidalgos are a unique Spanish social class born of the many nobles without titles born of the Reconquista.

5. Other nations can still colonize, it's not like they can't. England can still colonize using the historical method of English colonialism, I don't see the problem. They just can't use the conquistadors that they didn't use in history.

6. As I said, it's just my theory of why they did it. Maybe it's just so that Iberian kingdoms have more flavor, which is also valid. It's like complaining about why can only England have X bonus for navy and things like that

 

[Merrivale]

If you play as France, you literally shouldn’t be able to just copy and paste what the Spanish did in America lmao. If that’s what you want, go play Spain. A country having an advantage in something doesn’t make it inherently bad. No one complains that the British excel at naval power or that the Russians have an abundance of manpower, for example. If the French want to replicate what the Spanish did, they should find ways to compensate for their disadvantages. That’s the whole point of strategy.

In regards to the Portuguese.... they did have their version of conquistadores: they were called Bandeirantes. Idk about you but Brazil isnt a small portion of land, last time I check it was like the *biggest* South American country soo I dont get the "portuguese never conquered as much as the Spanish did", though I agree that the Portuguese shouldn't have a copy paste Conquistadores either.

In my opinion the worst parts of the entire EU series are things that are in the game "just 'cause". The Brits should excel at naval power because they are on a small island and that is the only way for them to be a dominant power. The Russians should have an abundance of manpower because they literally have that manpower, and whatever decisions you want to make about how exploitative the state is in this regard. It's unfortunate that the main DLC cash cow is adding just such content, because IMO it lessens the game.

Where the game fails is when it has to resort to tag-boosting just so history can play out the way it did most of the time. Magic British ships shouldn't come out of magic tags but out of centuries of investment in their navy and their unique circumstance. Magic Prussian soldiers shouldn't come out of their tag. Magic Russian hordes shouldn't come of out their tag. And magic conquistadors should not come out of magic Iberian Catholic tags. The whole point of strategy, as you put it, is you should have to work toward those advantages, which are based on the underlying conditions of your nation. In other words, you have to earn it, not just have it handed to you because you picked a certain country at start, and then 250 years later that country still exists. Which also allows for dynamic instead of railroaded gameplay. A game where Spain is conquered by the Muslims, who then look to the New World in a similar way the Spanish did should not box the Muslims out.

I don't want this to be misconstrued--the vast majority of games should develop in a manner so that due to circumstances the Spanish are basically the only people to use conquistadors. The British should have the best navy in the world. The Russian hordes should exist. But not just because.

 

[Bigsoulja9]

If you play as France, you literally shouldn’t be able to just copy and paste what the Spanish did in America lmao. If that’s what you want, go play Spain. A country having an advantage in something doesn’t make it inherently bad. No one complains that the British excel at naval power or that the Russians have an abundance of manpower, for example. If the French want to replicate what the Spanish did, they should find ways to compensate for their disadvantages. That’s the whole point of strategy.

... why? In our own history, what categorically differentiates conquistadors from other colonial expeditions, to the extent that only Iberians should have access to them/

 

[Bigsoulja9]

In other words, you have to earn it, not just have it handed to you because you picked a certain country at start, and then 250 years later that country still exists. Which also allows for dynamic instead of railroaded gameplay. A game where Spain is conquered by the Muslims, who then look to the New World in a similar way the Spanish did should not box the Muslims out.

Exactly. I feel like people hear our arguments to the contrary, and think we are saying "we do not want Spain and Portugal to do X", instead of saying "Why aren't we respecting the actual reasons they did X, so that other powers we might choose to play as could do so too if we set it up (or if they don't)?"

None of this means that certain tags cannot have "advantages" in achieving certain ends (positional, resources, techs, whatever)... in fact, they should. But to act like "X nation does this because that's just what they do" and hard-code that functionality in, is to basically kill the dynamism I feel like these games increasingly are trying to achieve.

 

[Sirbab]

Can subjects have their own subjects? If so its there any interaction between them and their greater overlord?

They can yes! As for interactions between final overlord and subjects two tiers down, I assume limited.

 

[$nake.]

I wonder how will the ai decide annexing. I hope they dont do it as it does in eu4 where ai always try to annex its subjects. Historically speaking, there were subjects that were stayed vassal under overlord for centuries but was not annexed anytime. For example Crimean Khanate & Romanian voivodates of Ottomans

 

[lukesilveira]

In regards to the Portuguese.... they did have their version of conquistadores: they were called Bandeirantes. Idk about you but Brazil isnt a small portion of land, last time I check it was like the *biggest* South American country soo I dont get the "portuguese never conquered as much as the Spanish did", though I agree that the Portuguese shouldn't have a copy paste Conquistadores either.

I wouldn't mix the two tbh. I agree that Bandeirantes (edit: or in game non country specific equivalent, I'm just using their irl) should have their own mechanics as a subject ABC, but I think they are their own thing, spawned from colonial nations and with distinct objectives (ie, claiming territory so the other colonial Powers wouldn't claim them, fighting jesuits (BBC?) and of course fighting and enslaving natives (SOPs) - later events could include them searching for gold or something, which they also did).

They did quite a lot of stuff and went everywhere. Raposo Tavares specially had a Bandeira for two years where, as a comparison, walked the equivalent distance of Lisbon to Moscow to Paris, most of it in the 1600s Amazon. But Bandeirantes weren't Cortezes or Pizarros building and breaking empires through military might or a net of native alliances, their official mission being 'expand current borders by being there before the Spanish appears, Tordesilhas treaty be damned'.

 

[MasacoFeliz]

The conquistador mechanic is amazing. Just a few thoughts, if a Conquistador uses indigenous levies it should automatically annex them as well when defeating the enemy.

This happened quite often, Tlaxcala became part of the Empire after joining(doing most of the job) the conquest of the Aztecs. In reward for this they had more autonomy and privileges than even the European Spaniards.

So I think making mini vassals would be a pain, but making them join the conquistador nation and being automatically an accepted culture should be a thing. At least for Spain, which preserved native languages and even had universities where you could learn in said languages.

Not so much for Portugal as they not only allowed the enslavement of indians, but even raided settlements to enslave them. They didn’t have any laws protecting either like the Laws of Burgos.

Also, could there be an event where the colonization pauses for a while to consider if what they are doing is right. Like the Controversy of Valladolid in 1550-51 where Charles I questioned the rightfulness of the conquest. If done right it should give a colonization bonus afterwards and if failed should stop it until the death of the monarch.

Also, will the colonial nations be able to send conquistadores or will they all come from the Peninsula?

 

[Ulpia Batavorum]

1. It doesn't make sense for Aragon to colonize anyways, doesn't matter if they have the ability.

2. The Portuguese kept fighting the muslims. Just after game start, they fight against a Moroccan inavsion allied with Castile (1340). In 1415 Portugal conquers Ceuta. After that they conquer Tangiers and other Morocca cities in the 1460s-1470s.

3. Even if the frontier disappears, the legal systems, cultural traditions and privileges gifted don't disappear. Feudalism wasn't really a thing in Iberia like in the rest of Europe because of the privileges gifted during the Reconquista. That has lasting effects in the society.

4. The Spanish conquistadors were not high nobility, but hidalgos (like Cortés and Pizarro) or even lawyers (Quesada). The hidalgos are a unique Spanish social class born of the many nobles without titles born of the Reconquista.

5. Other nations can still colonize, it's not like they can't. England can still colonize using the historical method of English colonialism, I don't see the problem. They just can't use the conquistadors that they didn't use in history.

6. As I said, it's just my theory of why they did it. Maybe it's just so that Iberian kingdoms have more flavor, which is also valid. It's like complaining about why can only England have X bonus for navy and things like that

You find lower often /mostly landless nobility all over Europe since feudal times. The Prussian Junkers even have an origin within this niederer Adel (lower nobility) that mainly served in the military and only became landed and powerfull nobility much later. There is nothing truly unique about the hidalgos in that sence that it explains why only Iberian/Spanish/Castillian landless lower nobles can become conquistadores. More so if Castille somehow ends up becoming a single province/location nation that may even be completely landlocked. Sure give them conquistadores because there is an age change and Columbus was sponsored by France, Naples, or even a big bad Merinid state that stretches far beyond Tripoli, that makes perfect sence.
What we need is a game mechanic not a tag mechanic. If done right in 99% of all games the Iberians will still get conquistadores and giving the Iberians a tag based bonus (being the first to unlock the privelage and something like not only the nobility spends cash on setting up an expedition but also the clergy making them faster at it and enabling the spread of the state religion not just to the colonized location but the entire province) would be perfectly fine and stll add flavour to the Iberians.

 

[Pirat6662001]

Will Privateers be available? Seems like a good army based subject