Tinto Talks #59 - 16th of April 2025

[Solo_Adhémar]

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Wrong side!....and a bit off the center!
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That is the right design though. Here's a direct iconographic testimony instead. Note that the impaling order did not matter that much (as usual for the time) and they themselves alternated freely between both compositions (most seals are using this design).

 

[Mef]

Although I'd prefer this over what was in the TT, your proposal suffers from the same problem as the TT's design: it's a boring mechanic, with almost no political/diplomatic interplay.

I'd prefer the Cardinals (and to a lesser extent, sainthood) to be something Countries and even the Papacy "fight" for control, and have these disputes impact the relationship between countries and the papacy itself.

You also have to take into account what it's like playing as the Papal States - if you have hundreds of Catholic countries trying to fight you all the time over every little thing, that would exactly be fun gameplay.
There can be diplomatic interaction when it comes to founding a new diocese.

 

[guiskj]

You also have to take into account what it's like playing as the Papal States - if you have hundreds of Catholic countries trying to fight you all the time over every little thing, that would exactly be fun gameplay.
There can be diplomatic interaction when it comes to founding a new diocese.

Very good point. My counterpoint is that the current design would make playing the Papal States rather infuriating, as you have no control over your Curia and therefore no control over the Bulls, nor Saints. What is the point of playing the Papacy if I have no control over my religion?

In my own proposal (page 12 I think), I put some guidelines on how the interaction should be, which I think would make playing the Papal States also satisfying.

 

[JuanMartinez2219]

How similar will the schism be to the reformation, could the schism never ending prevent the reformation from ever happening? Protestant papacy?

 

[matfer13]

That is the right design though. Here's a direct iconographic testimony instead. Note that the impaling order did not matter that much (as usual for the time) and they themselves alternated freely between both compositions (most seals are using this design).

I know that they based it from the personal Coa of Charles rather than the banner of the Angevins of Hungary

But that's why I want them to change it, as a Coa it was used only by Charles in this form, it's successor used other different variants so instead of changing it everytime I think it's better to use the Angeving banner that I posted(which was almost the same for all their rulers), that's why I'm ok with Naples using that flag(Angevin Coa mixed with Jerusalem's banner) despite them not owning Jerusalem at the start, because all the rulers after Charles II(of the Angevin dynasty) claimed it and used the same Coa without alterations

 

[Mef]

For those refreshing this thread interested in the cardinal mechanic, look here, Johan did a thing:

Some clarification on Cardinal Seats.

Todays Tinto Talks showed the tooltip for a "built" cardinal seat. Where the big doughnut piechart around the poptype indicated how many are currently working, maximum levels, and more.. This is the tooltip for "Cardinal Seat" when you want to...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Oglesby]

• Can we list the Religion Group in the subtitle "Religion | Christianity" instead of adding lines
• Can we go back to having the effects right justified and not listed after colons?
• Can we move away from yes/no and go to "allowed/blocked"
  • Promote to Empire : Blocked
  • Build Monasteries : Allowed
  • Declare war on Religious head without Casus belli: Allowed
• Thank you for putting a scroll bar into the list of countries and including flags. There needs to be a little space between the <pop icon> and the scrollbar
• So clicking on a religion is the action we want to use initiate changing the countries religion? (or is that leaders?) I think this should be somewhere else, even more so as it doesn't appear to have the 'and hold' action attached.
  • Does the red 'cannot perform action case' expand to see all the requirements not just what is failing?

• looks good. I would add a space before the open parenthesis.

• Please use more colors.
• Please have a separate color for wasteland and 'not in this IO'.
• If there is a color for unknown (or fog) please have the different than both of these.

• Can the catholic church be something other than Catholic? Why is it listed on the right of the top bar
• I would move the age and sex icon to the attributes section. (I would move the family crest there also if it were present)
• Can the leader be someone other that the papal states? Do we need the small flag? Maybe move it to the left of the top bar where you have payments and religion (if you are keeping this).
• I am hoping that the icons are WiP so that we do not look like the UN
• Add the amount of Cardinals to the flags either in a notification circle or listed after the flag as this is important information that should be easily accessible.
• Can we change the first grouping to "16 Cardinals within 7 Curia"
• (Is that even what the Curia was? Wasn't the Curia the Cardinals and not the states where they resided?)
• Add the 'expand/collapse' ability to all of the groupings.
• Does the "Members" section include the Military Orders, and Bishoprics? If so, should there be the group shown without them.

• Is this the new tooltip for building type? Or do buildings and building types have different tooltips? (prefer some of this over the Building type tooltip)
• Does not indicate what age, where it can be built etc.
• Do we need two lines to indicate the current level and the max level?
• How would it indicate is there was more 'production methods' than Cardinals?
• Can we get rid of the brown background around the number and just pick a font color that works with the background image so it appears that the number is on the 'parchment' with the <icon>
• I want to say swap the 'production method' and the effects so it will be down near the market access (which is pertinent to the goods list) but am not sure.

• Am tempted to list the active policy after the "Law" in the subtitle but maybe that should be "Law | Estate Laws"
• Should we call them Doctrines instead of laws?
• Who do the first two listed modifiers affect? You have a secondary section that in the first law shown was 'Is leader of Catholic Church' and now is 'Is leader of Catholic Church'. It is ambiguous. Looking at this policy I might assume that the first two are the leader and the last two and everyone else; looking at the first policy I would assume the opposite. Be more explicit to remove the ambiguity.
• Change to "Clergy Can Marry Blocked" (remove the X from the rings in the icon modifier with this change)
• Can we remove the active policy from the list and change it to title to indicate that it is the other possible policies
• Why does the Papal states need to be a member twice?
• We don't need a list of fail cases at the end as we are showing the requirements list.

• Why are these called start election instead of vote or debate?
• As you stated "you wouldn't start a Bull debate if you want to vote no on it" why have buttons to start a bull debate disagreeing?
• Why is voting for indicated as good and against as bad?
• Is there some indication that I have voted? (Can I change my vote if it is still open?)
• What happens with ties?
• Even if my Clergy hates me, I control the cardinals vote?
• After a vote is concluded can the item be voted on again? After ten years when the effect is gone?
• Will the 'buttons' be replaced by the effect after the vote?

• Can the effects of the Modifier be listed in the first tooltip to remove the need to open another tooltip and make the first tooltip more useful?
• Papal bulls only have effects for ten years?

• If the requirement for sainthood is that the character is dead do we have to indicate all these saints are dead?
• Are the ... the effects? Is there a reason not to show the effects?
• Are the saints attributes pertinent?
• Can we stop color coding attribute icons and color code the value like we do with everything else?
• Is the estate that the character favored pertinent to their sainthood?

• As this is the list of holy sites in the Catholic Church do we need to indicate that it is a Catholic Holy Site?
• That the numbers are the 'importance' of the site is not apparent. Look Santiago is 3 out of 5 crosses

• The Primary Religion of the Catholic religion is Catholicism?
• Is "Primary Religion Tolerance" the same as "Tolerance of the True Faith" that was listed above? Is there a reason for the change?
• Some of the text over the image is hard to read
• What is the donut chart in the middle a representation of ? If it is the unity does it also need to be listed on the left?
• By forcing the donut chart to be centered in the picture you are appearing to squash the random banner at the top (2 something that looks like dynastic power but isn't)
• Are saints less important that holy sites? Why is one on the picture and the other gets a button and section?
• Canonizing a saint isn't a Religious Action?
• Are religious influence and reform desire less important than the items in the picture? Why are they relegated below?
• Are holy sites part of the Catholic Church IO or the Catholic religion? The IO lists 6 sites, the religion only lists 4
• Are saints part of the Catholic Church IO or the Catholic religion? The IO lists 8 saints, the religion only lists 0
• What does the image at the bottom of the banner have to do with the Catholic Religion.

THanks

 

[matfer13]

Can you show locations with Cardinals on the catholic IO map with a different colour or an icon like EU4?

 

[Magj101]

Thank you! I understand that there may no longer be any leeway in the development cycle to include this expansion, and if that is indeed the case may I suggest another type of Tinto Talk?

Close to release, it would be really cool if you had a Tinto Talk about all the feedback/content that you just did not have time to include before release of 1.0 but would like to include at a later date.

That way, say for the Cardinal rework many rightfully want, we would know that something like that would come eventually.

Lastly, I just want to include my vote for Cardinals to be reworked such as:

1. Countries may build seats, but the pope gets to decide when to fill it
2. Cardinals are full characters, and can participate in the cabinet
3. Countrie may bestow the Folk Saint trait to a dead character, but only the Pope can fully canonize a character
4. Countries may spend some resource to convince the Pope to fill a Cardinal Seat or Canonize a character, but only if the Papacy has enough Opinion with the Country
   1. Other Countries may also spend resources to block a Cardinal Seat being filled by a rival Country
   2. This also means that when a Cardinal dies, Countries (including the Papacy) could try to spend resources to block that seat being filled by the original country, leaving it empty or filling it with their own new Cardinal. This could even model the Papacy trying to reign in the number of Cardinals and/or increase how many of their own Cardinals are in the Curia.

Maybe to get an extra modifier and chance to get them be canonized or so you can get better relations with the country that’s the Papal controller to help influence them to help you get what you want.

 

[Lys91]

That's because we are here applying a modifier to a default positive condition. The default is to be able to declare wars, while having the modifier (the Yes part) disallows those wars

"Need casus belli to declare war on the head of religion." Yes (change nothing in the code, just make the text clearer)

 

[mrflagio]

It feels a bit weird that you get cardinals simply by building a building? But equally, I have no idea how this worked in real life.

Basically when a few nearby dioceses becomes big enough the pope reorganizes them under a cardinal...at least that's pretty much how it's worked for the past few centuries. Before that it was probably a bit more political.

 

[mrflagio]

There are currently no requirements, as we decided to abstract the process. Countries didn't always follow the papal procedures before they started venerating their past rulers as saints, and saints are not exclusive to Catholicism (and thus tied to the Pope) anyway.

Starting the sainthood process didn't (and still doesn't) involve the pope but only bishops, but ultimately to be termed 'Saint' it needs to go through the pope. This should at the very least be something decided by the Curia.

 

[Miroku20X6]

Basically when a few nearby dioceses becomes big enough the pope reorganizes them under a cardinal...at least that's pretty much how it's worked for the past few centuries. Before that it was probably a bit more political.

Rather, the Pope reorganizes them into an archdiocese headed by an archbishop, which is not the same as a cardinal. Today there are 33 archbishops in the US to just 17 cardinals (I don’t know if all 17 cardinals are among the archbishops or if some are just regular bishops).

 

[Algaeninja]

Is there any role play flavor for Cathoicism regarding reunifying Christianity?

There is precedence for this. For example, many Eastern Rites uniting with Rome over time. Additionally, if Florence wasn't retroactively rejected (and Byzantium wasn't conquered by the end of it), we may have seen a union between EO and Catholicism. Also, there was (briefly) a time where Ethiopia became Catholic.

Also, are there any incentives for countries, who historically greatly invested into founding missions in foreign countries (e.g. Spain, Portugal), to actually found these missions?

 

[ArVass]

Here’s an overview of the religion itself:
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Dynamic Anjou Hungary flag variety confirmed!!! Yippeee

Another key aspect of Catholicism is that all Catholic countries will belong to the Catholic Church IO:
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You can see here that there are quite many countries belonging to it (the total list is expandable and scrollable), with some of them having some special statuses. For Bishopric and Military Order these are self-explanatory, but the Curia and Cardinals need some more information.

The decisions concerning the Catholic Church are taken by the Curia, which is composed of Cardinals. In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building. Each Cardinal Seat will grant its owner country a Cardinal, which the country can use to influence the decisions of the Curia (more on that later). Countries can have more than one Cardinal Seat and thus more than one Cardinal, that’s why in the panel you can see that there’s 7 countries in the Curia but a total of 16 Cardinals among them.
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I'm suspicious of these 16 cardinals, I have a gut feeling that there has to have been way more than that, but also don't know enough to doubt it lol.

 

[bokorthedust]

There's a cost for starting a debate and for losing one, so you wouldn't start a Bull debate if you want to vote no on it. Voting no is basically when another country has proposed something and you want to punish them by voting no.

But would I have a reason to say no outside of wanting to punish someone (make them lose their influence - at least I presume that's one of the costs)? In EU4 the various bulls were all positive, and you could have multiple active. Unless you've changed the system where maybe they have drawbacks too or only one could be active at a time and there's a cooldown or something on proposing them, I see no or very little reason to say no, especially if it wasn't me fronting the cost of proposing them.

 

[Ispil]

You also have to take into account what it's like playing as the Papal States - if you have hundreds of Catholic countries trying to fight you all the time over every little thing, that would exactly be fun gameplay.
There can be diplomatic interaction when it comes to founding a new diocese.

I mean, there is some dilution. You're not dealing with every single bishop in the world; you're dealing with the archbishops of their ecclesiastical provinces (or bishops if exempt).

 

[sassa de sa]

Why does it say "Primary Religion Tolerance"? What exactly do you tolerate about it when it's your primary religion? "Tolerance" makes sense for other religions, but not your primary religion.

It's the modifier you get. +6 for primary -1.5 for heretics and -7 for heatens. If they are catholic they might get more tolerant towards other stuff, like taxes and general opression.

 

[KingEdmureTully]

Why can catholic countries not become empires? What’s the reasoning behind this(historically speaking)?

Any Empire was supposed to be Rome, legally its successor. The Catholics don't recognize the Byzantines as Rome, but they do recognize the HRE as Rome. If you have more than one Catholic empire then you have more than 1 Rome. This is why France wasn't a Empire until Napoleon, who broke the taboo.

 

[ramdomperson343]

Is it possible for non-Catholic Christian nations, such as Orthodox/Coptic ones, to convert? Or will there be a mechanic that simulates some of the later inclusion of different liturgical rites into the Church, such as the Maronite/Byzantine Rite?