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Tinto Talks #59 - 16th of April 2025

Hello and welcome once again to our super secret Project Caesar Tinto Talks. I will be your host this time, where we will be talking about the mechanics of Catholicism and its associated Catholic Church International Organization.

Here’s an overview of the religion itself:
Catholicism Tooltip.png


One thing to highlight here besides all the other effects, is that Catholic countries are not able to tax their clergy at all by default, although there may be other things modifying this on top of it. However, the clergy won’t necessarily swim in money, as that has to be instead paid to the Papacy directly in the form of a tithe.
Tithe.png


Another key aspect of Catholicism is that all Catholic countries will belong to the Catholic Church IO:
Catholic Church Map.png

Catholic Church IO pannel.png


You can see here that there are quite many countries belonging to it (the total list is expandable and scrollable), with some of them having some special statuses. For Bishopric and Military Order these are self-explanatory, but the Curia and Cardinals need some more information.

The decisions concerning the Catholic Church are taken by the Curia, which is composed of Cardinals. In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building. Each Cardinal Seat will grant its owner country a Cardinal, which the country can use to influence the decisions of the Curia (more on that later). Countries can have more than one Cardinal Seat and thus more than one Cardinal, that’s why in the panel you can see that there’s 7 countries in the Curia but a total of 16 Cardinals among them.
Cardinal Seat.png


Another aspect of the Catholic Church IO is its doctrines, represented by a set of laws. These laws are not something that’s easily changed, as it’s what defines the core values of Catholicism, but some important events will be able to shape them, like for example the Council of Trent (more on that in future Tinto Talks). Here are some of these laws effects:
Papal Authority.png

Purchase of Indulgence.png

Marriage of Priests.png

Persecution of Witchcraft.png


Next to the Doctrines, we have the Papal Bulls. These are actions that any Catholic country can choose to propose, but only those in the Curia can vote on whether to pass them or refuse them. Here are the possible bulls with some examples:
Papal Bulls.png

Illius Qui Se Pro Divini.png

In Coena Domini.png


When voting on a Papal Bull, the interface changes slightly to show how many cardinals support each option. It goes without saying that all the cardinals that a country has will be assigned to vote for the same option, so the amount of cardinals a country has is effectively its amount of votes.
Papal Bulls Vote.png


Besides the Papal Bulls, there’s also the action of Excommunication, available to all countries of the Curia, that if approved, will get the excommunicated country some very nasty modifiers and allow for a special casus belli.

Excommunication Effects.png


The Catholic Church also has some extra aspects in the form of Saints and Holy Sites. Saints are characters of a country that have been elevated to sainthood. A country can choose to canonize any of its previous rulers, and they will get benefits depending on the abilities of such character. Holy Sites are special locations to the Catholic faith, giving some extra income to their owner due to the affluence of faithful in them.
Saints.png

Holy Sites.png


Outside the Catholic Church per se and instead in the main religion panel, there are some extra religious actions available to certain countries, besides the already mentioned option to canonize a character.
Religious Actions.png


  • Demand Apostolic Tax is an action exclusive to the Papacy, in which they will demand extra payment from those countries with the Apostolic Tax privilege enabled.
  • Request Aid is an action exclusive to the military orders, in which they can ask to petition support to the Pope for their infrastructure, military, or coffers.
  • Placitum Regium is an action available to kingdoms or empires that gives them some extra crown power at the expense of relations with the Papacy.

One last thing to mention here is that, as you can see, Catholicism also has Reform Desire. However, in contrast to some other of our titles that also present this value, here it is not a ticking clock for the Reformation, but instead something that will come into play in the Council of Trent. As such, you will have to wait a bit for a further explanation on it.

And that is all for today, next week we will resolve these cliffhangers by taking a further look at what Catholicism has in store after the start of the game, including the situations of the Western Schism, Reformation, and the Council of Trent. On the other hand, in this week’s Tinto Flavor we will go directly to the head of Catholicism by taking a look at the flavor content for the Papal States. Also, remember that this week’s Tinto Flavour will be on Thursday, as this week is Good Friday and the Papal States would be too busy to attend their own Tinto Flavor then (oh, and it’s also a holiday).

See you next time!
 
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One thing to highlight here besides all the other effects, is that Catholic countries are not able to tax their clergy at all by default, although there may be other things modifying this on top of it
In 1332 Charles Robert of Hungary enacted a law, by which the pope could only collect the papal tithe if a third of it went to the king. Is this, or other similar laws possible in the game?
 
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1. If the Papal States are annexed or cease to exist, what happens to the Papacy, the Curia, and the Catholic Church IO leadership? Does the IO designate a new leader or dissolve?
2. How does the AI decide whether to vote for or against a Papal Bull? Is it based on relations with the proposer/target, their own situation, ruler traits, or specific AI personalities?
3. Regarding Excommunication: What are the specific Casus Belli benefits, and how long do the negative modifiers last (until ruler death, or fixed duration)?

And I have those unanswered questions from last TT:

1. How dynamic is IA gain/loss – can external factors (like major wars involving members) significantly impact it, or is it mostly driven by internal HRE factors?
2. Besides enacting imperial laws, are there other uses for imperial authority?
3. What are the key gameplay differences and unique interactions for the less common member types (Imperial Prelates / Imperial Peasant Republics) compared to standard Princes or Free Cities?
5a) Is Imperial Contribution automatic or can members choose not to contribute (perhaps at the cost of relations or IA)?
5b) Can the Emperor influence the amount contributed?
6. How do non-HRE countries interact with the HRE as an IO? Can they easily join or leave the HRE and what are the requirements or consequences?
7. How does this IO-based HRE fundamentally change the gameplay loop compared to EU4?
8. What unique actions or decisions does the Emperor have beyond proposing laws in the Diet and managing IA? How much direct influence can the Emperor exert over members?
9. What are the key strategic considerations for a regular HRE member? Is the primary goal always to become Emperor, or are there viable alternative paths within the HRE structure?
 
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Trier had a huge historical relevance, it's not about its mere size. A new random town in a colony wouldn't be as likely to be turned into a bishopric let alone a cardinal seat
I thought the lands newly conquered by the Teutonic Order had a bunch of bishoprics?
Trier's size is typical for the time period - bishops and archbishops (and thus by extension cardinals) did not just reside in big cities. There aren't even that many in Catholic Europe at the start.
I feel like it was relatively big for the time and place
The 118th largest city in Europe in 1400. And certainly not a "city" by the game's standards.
 
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Is there any benefit to *starting* an election disagreeing with a particular Bull? The two shown have seemingly no drawback. If there’s an opportunity cost such as in EU4 with only one Bull active at a time, why would you start a disagreement on one you don’t want instead of starting an agreement on the one you do?
There's a cost for starting a debate and for losing one, so you wouldn't start a Bull debate if you want to vote no on it. Voting no is basically when another country has proposed something and you want to punish them by voting no.
 
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I guess I wasn't misreading the post, unfortunately.

There are currently no requirements, as we decided to abstract the process. Countries didn't always follow the papal procedures before they started venerating their past rulers as saints, and saints are not exclusive to Catholicism (and thus tied to the Pope) anyway.
Catholic doctrine by this point in history is that only the Vatican can canonize - specifically to stop the issues of heresy that folk saints can present - and this was later amended so that only the Pope himself can canonize new saints (Through this organization). It shouldn't matter to the Catholic mechanics what other religious practices do for their saints. This discussion is about the mechanics for Catholicism. Surely the system should be setup in a way that can accurately portray a multitude of faiths and how they handle the 'revered dead' of various kinds, Saints included.

Those people who start being revered as saints but are not yet canonized by the pope might get a different status if you want to portray them - Folk Saints, perhaps - and be potential candidates for canonization, but they should not instantly be recognized by the wider Catholic world as saints before an official canonization. Besides, if the pope then rejects the claims of sainthood, that's interesting - it means causing unrest between those that follow the Pope's decree and those who reject it.

Right now the system sounds boring as well as inaccurate. Getting a saint sounds like it's just a cost problem, not one of trying to get acceptance from the head of the faith, which it should be. Cost might come into that, but it should not be the sole determining factor.

There's no hard blocks for that if they want to do it. They would only need to be able to afford all their construction and maintenance.
There should be hard blocks.

The pope's influence is one of the core tenants of Catholicism, and you're undermining it by the very nature of how you're portraying the faith, mechanically. Perhaps countries should be able to build a cardinal's seat, but they should still have to try and get a cardinal elected to that position. This is completely the wrong way of representing the way cardinals were appointed. If it's meant to show the corruption in the system, that should be done by having countries able to try and bribe the papacy for a seat. Cardinals didn't just show up at the college of cardinals without the pope's explicit approval and endorsement for the position (A minimum relation wouldn't even suffice. There are only a few seats, sometimes fewer than 30).

In addition, there should ideally be ways for the pope to adjust the number of seats in the College, as was done historically. This was done in order to limit the College's power when it suited the pope, and to open opportunities to appoint new cardinals if that would win allies and support. I also don't know how the Western Schism is going to be portrayed even halfway accurately if you're not going to be representing how the various competing popes were all appointing their own cardinals, which would not be recognized by the other popes.

Quite honestly there's a lot we should rather be discussing instead of basic Catholic doctrine, such as whether there should be enough nuance to have cardinals from your country not always vote in line with your wishes, or what should happen if your cardinal dies and you lose that seat in the College, but the basics should be correct before we can have that sort of conversation.

Right now it seems like you've neutered the papacy's role in the faith to an unhistorical degree. Under this system, the pope is a powerless figurehead in his own College and unable to even control who is canonized.

Again, this is boring. I don't mind some abstraction, but you've removed all of the political nuance and intrigue that came with the position of cardinal. Somehow it's made the most politically bloody, interesting institution in Catholicism a boring one where the pope has no power and there's just a positive opinion and some money between any Catholic country and having a seat in the College.
 
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1. Any dead character of the country
2. We don't have Anglo-Saxon in the game and thus they are English, which is using the "de" because it's already been influenced by French
3. No, holy sites are defined at setup
4. It's for all theocracies (but they have to be countries, ofc)
5. There's too many of them to list here (but I can assure you they are using the correct terms)
But Jerusalem, Antioch etc, places that are controlled by Muslims at the game start are holy sites right? I see Jerusalem, but it would make sense all the other conquered ones are too
 
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View attachment 1281959
I beg you to stop doing this.
It's a mess when there are multiple conditions and all are "yes" but the description is a negative.

edit : or worse, when it's a double negative
If they have to keep the yes they could kinda just change this to:
"Can ONLY Declare Wars on Religious Head With Casus Belli" or similiar.

Thus avoiding the double-negative.
 
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There's a cost for starting a debate and for losing one, so you wouldn't start a Bull debate if you want to vote no on it. Voting no is basically when another country has proposed something and you want to punish them by voting no.
Ah yes, the good ol' corruption of religion...this game is so realistic!!!
 
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Can countries request funds from the Papacy in case there is a plague outbreak or a disaster?

Are Jesuits and similar non military orders in the game? Will they help with location development and literacy growth?
1. There's nothing specific for that
2. Jesuits are in the game (you can see one of the laws relating to them actually)
 
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