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Tinto Talks #60 - 23rd of April 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Sant Jordi San Jorge Saint George’s Day Castile and León Day Wednesday where we talk about our entirely super-top-secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week, we will be talking about a trending topic: What happens if two (or more) Popes are elected in a Papal Conclave? What makes a man go neutral join the Dark Side nail Ninety-five Theses against indulgences on a church in Wittenberg? How does a general council of the Catholic Church react to this?

Or, in other words, we will be talking today about three historical Situations present in our game: the Western Schism, the Reformation, and the Council of Trent.



The Western Schism

When a Pope dies, some processes need to be started, leaning towards the most important one, the Papal Conclave, which will determine the election of a new Pope:

Papal Death.jpg

Papal Conclave.png

The Pope has died! As shown last week, the special Papal Heir Selection determines that a regency will start, with a clergyman becoming the Head of the Papal Conclave.

If it’s the year 1360 or later, a Schism might strike the Catholic Church, making for a divided election:

Western Schism1.jpg

The Western Schism may be managed in this panel:

Western Schism3.jpg

Where you might see a few things:
  • The contenders - the Papal States (the Pope residing either in Avignon or in Rome) on one side, and the country backing the second Pope on the other.
  • The support gathered by each Pope (which will slowly tick up, until one of them reaches 100% support).
  • The Reform Desire (more on this later).
  • The Curial countries that support each candidate.
  • The available actions.

This is the starting point of the Vote Progress hoverable tooltip (in the panel above, you see the numbers after some months/years have passed):
Vote Progress.jpg

The ‘Unity of Faith’ action:
Unity of Faith.jpg

And this is what happens because of the Curia Actions of the Catholic Church IO being blocked:
Blocked Papal Bulls.jpg

Finally, this is the situation map mode, showing the countries supporting each side:

Papal Contenders.jpg

The French candidate has more support than the current candidate, while Castile is sitting on the fence of the split election.

There will be some possible actions to gather support for each candidate, and some events may trigger randomly during the situation. And after a while, one of the candidates will gather enough support to reunite the Catholic Church again:

Catholic Church United Again.jpg

However, there are more perils for the Catholic Church…



The Reformation

After the year 1510, a certain Augustinian monk will protest against the uses of the Church, starting the Reformation:

The Lutheran Reformation.jpg

Reformation.jpg

The birthplace of the Reformation will be semi-dynamic, there are some weights in place, so it will usually trigger in a different place of the Catholic Christendom. In this case, Martin Luther was serving his duty in Perugia, Italy.

Lutheranism.jpg

The doctrine that a proper Catholic should follow!

This is the starting panel of the situation:
Reformation Panel.jpg

The elements that you can see are:
  • The Lutheran and Catholic pops at each moment.
  • The main active reformers (since all of them are characters that may spawn by event).
  • The Lutheran Preachers, which is a building that may spawn and spread throughout Catholic countries:
Lutheran Preachers.jpg

This might be a situation a year or so after the Reformation starts:
Zwingli.jpg

Ignore the weird graphical bug that we just found while writing this TT, each character has its own different portrait.

Reformation map mode.jpg

A second reformer, Zwingli, appeared in Switzerland, making the Free City of Bern a Lutheran bastion, and also 7 Lutheran Preachers buildings appeared. In the map mode, you can see the countries already converted to Lutheranism, the locations that already have Lutheran pops, and also other Protestant confessions present, such as some Hussites in Bohemia. Ignore the red borders, BTW; some countries decided that the start of the Reformation was a good moment to declare war on me, the Papal States, while preparing the screenshots for this Tinto Talks (traitors and heretics, they are!).

The Reformation may last for a while, because these are its ending triggers:

End Requirements.jpg

Which leads us to the third and final Situation for today:



The Council of Trent

If the Reformation is still active, and the Reform Desire (the modifier I mentioned in the Western Schism situation) is over 50%, the Council of Trent will trigger:

Council of Trent1.jpg

Council of Trent2.jpg

Council of Trent3.jpg

The main point of the Council of Trent is to debate, and eventually approve, some new Laws for the Catholic Church IO; When those Laws are voted and passed, it will end the Council:

Council of Trent4.jpg

Council of Trent5.jpg

And these are some examples of the Laws that are available for voting, each one having different policies that can be set:
Indulgences.jpg

Papal Authority.jpg

Veneration of Saints.jpg

Except for the Papal Authority doctrine, all the policies have proper Latin names, as they should be!


And that’s all for today! We hope that you enjoyed it and that your favourite cardinal becomes Pope. Next week, we will be taking a look at the final part of the Western Christian religious puzzle: the mechanics for the different Protestant confessions, and another situation, the War of Religion. And don’t forget that this Friday we will post the Tinto Flavour with the content for the Military Orders of the Teutonic & Livonian Orders and the Knights Hospitallers. Cheers!
 
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Predictions (although Hussites do get their own situation and all)

1000001829.jpg
 
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Is there a reason to care about which side comes out dominate, because if it just ends up having the Papacy reunite in the end... Then the choice becomes "Support to get this done faster" or "stall"
 
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The Reformation was largely a movement "from below", that is, it did not come from the authorities, but from the people - primarily from the urban lower classes, artisans, the petty bourgeoisie, and part of the nobility. In France, unlike Germany or Switzerland, the peasantry was in somewhat better economic conditions, especially in the northern and western regions, and did not have such a strong motivation to speak out against the Catholic Church, which, although it caused discontent, was not their main oppressor. Therefore, the regions of the Reformation should be associated with the well-being of the lower classes.
 
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Will the council of Trent still be named after Trent if Trent is not part of a catholic/christian country at all (eg. the Turks conquer it)? Could it then maybe have a dynamic name after a random Catholic location perhaps?
 
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This actually looks really good in comparison to the overall issues with the way the Catholic Church is structured in the game. If the issues raised about the mechanics from the last Tinto Talks (Cardinals, Saints, Bulls, Laws and Conclave elections under a player-led Papal States) are fixed, then I don't see much here that immediately stands out as needing to change, at least for a really good base game experience.

As stated in the above linked thread, though, the laws you showcase here for papal authority are a strange mix. Ultramontanism, Gallicanism and presumably Invisible Church are positions on church authority over the state and vice versa, not positions on which entity should have authority over the Catholic Church as a whole, where Conciliarism was explicitly a movement to create an ecumenical council to take some level of control over the Catholic church.

It's also strange to have these positions on secular or religious governance for a state on a church-wide level when it seems as though it should be an issue for individual states. Historically I'd argue that there have been what could be described as Ultramontanic states and Gallican states around at the same time, pretty much from the church's inception. Neither was a movement which all of Catholicism subscribed to at any time (Even if both terms are from the 18th century, I think they describe similar schools of thought which existed earlier just fine).

As I'd discussed in the above thread, there should be a 'Church leadership' law for the Catholic IO where there could be Papal Authority and Conciliarism (Perhaps a form where there is a pope and council, and one with only a council), among any other options which might make sense, and a 'Church authority' law for individual Catholic countries where they can decide how much authority the church has over the state or vice versa - hopefully with associated consequences angering the papacy for not choosing Ultramontanism. This has a few benefits aside from just being more accurate and nuanced: It allows situations where the conbinations of overall church leadership and the church authority in individual states could interact in interesting ways.
I also mentioned this in the last TT but also maybe if they want countries to be able to pick cardinals it would be a privilege for a country but it causes the Pope and other countries to have a negative opinion with you but you get a positive opinion of the Pope? Maybe it could be a casus Belli? Let’s just say France declares on the Papal States to get the privilidge, they win, get it, and they get a -50 relation with the Pope and other Catholics, France gets +50 with the Papal States, and can’t declare war on them after without a stability hit? Or something like that?
 
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I would much prefer if the location of council of Trent was dynamic, that is, if the pope could choose, where the council takes place. Could we have Lyons III, Vienne II or council of Munich or whatever seems best at the time? If Trent is controlled by a protestant country that is in war with the pope, surely pope would not choose it, right? The same goes for the treaty of Tordesillas, I hope the name will be dynamic as well.
 
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PLS dont make the reformation another waiting slop gameplay situation. I hope the Council of Trent and Wars of Religion can be dealth with quickly if the player is good enough and powerful enough cause forcing us to sit down and do nothing as the HRE Emperor would make me question why there even was a EU4 sequel being made when the worst things about it get carried over. I espacially hope Catholics can influence the 50% requirenment to start it cause pretending like the reformation was everyone passively waiting for a artificial threshhold is stupid.
 
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The previous TT showed Cum Postquam as the current active policy for the Sale of Indulgences law, but this one shows it as "no active policy". Which is correct? Was it changed since the last TT?

I think it'd be strange for Cum Postquam to be the active policy at the beginning of the game rather than Unigenitus Dei Fillius, since Cum Postquam was published in 1519 in response to Martin Luther whereas Unigenitus Dei Fillius was published in 1343 and is the Papal Bull that established the doctrine of the infinite treasury of merits of Christ and the Saints from which the Pope grants indulgences.
 
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I would like there to eventually be something where if I’m Japan and I become Catholic late and can’t impact the council of Trent I could split off a Catholic Church that is more conservative and Medieval. Or with the council of Trent the church splits again like it did with the Western Schism. Especially if they become really liberal like they do in all the games I played in eu4 where they always go conciliatory. It’s kinda frustrating tbh. I just have to redo everything, play till the 16th century when I can get that situation and hope out of the 75% times they choose conciliatory I finally get that 25% lol I wanna roleplay a conservative Catholic crusader Japan. Then maybe take out the “heretical Papacy” and replace it with the “true Papacy.” It may not be in the beginning of the game but I hope the Devs would think about adding something like that in eventually for Flavor or for dlc.
 
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  • I like the use of the portrait here, will it get a fancier frame like the flag?
  • Drop last names for Popes.
  • Pronouns for the Pope shouldn't be capitalized; only capitalize if part of a formal title like "His Holiness"
  • "and He was Pope of Papal States." The whole clause feels off. Why is it a clause what is it for? Is this boilerplate?
    • "Pope Benedictus XII, leader of the Papal States, has dies at the age of 75."
  • Doesn't clicking on the name or portrait provide the character information? Why do we need a button for it?
  • Too much space between the text box and the buttons
  • Should be 'Our Camerlengo reports' or Chamberlain. (same for the Papal Conclave 'event')
  • For the Papal Conclave event where does the Go To button go to?
Papal%20Death.jpg


  • Love the background image but cannot see it as the two models take it over. Would it be possible to reduce the size of the models so they get tucked into the corners? Are the leaders actually important here?
  • Is there a chance that it is not France?
  • Shouldn't is be Rome v Avignon, not Cahors?
  • Shouldn't the second model be the other 'Pope' and not the leader of the other country?
  • Is the Reform Desire and Curia truly part of the' Cardinal Support'?
  • I would list is as "Curia Actions: Blocked"? Why is the value green?
  • Why is reform desire green? Is it a good thing?
  • Is the Total Reform Desire shown somewhere?
  • Is support (78 and 124) the number of catholic countries? The 'weight' of the Curia that are listed?
  • In this example are there only 6 countries with Cardinals? Or are there more than shown? Do countries start neutral until they vote or is neutral an active choice?
  • Do you expect a lot of countries in the Curia? Would this be better as a list of countries with the three selections shown at the end? If they have not voted yet, none would be selected. If they have voted then it will be indicated (could grey out the others or even remove them). I think this will be better then 4 boxes (two across with two under)
    • <flag><name><weight>|<Rome> <Neutral> <Cahors>
  • What does 'tick down until one reaches 100% support'? Does that mean until someone reached 0 support?
  • Are the calendar boxes linked to the characters? what are they for and how do they relate to the "Situation"?
  • Center 'Start Date' over the start date
  • right justify the 2.5% that is under Cahors (i.e. the % under the s)
Western%20Schism3.jpg


  • Why is the subtitle "Situation", Western Schism is the situation, no? It should be "Western Schism Action"
  • Is Show unity of faith also the name of a modifier? You should list the effects of the modifier in this tooltip to reduce the need to open another tooltip to see the effects of this action.
  • Is there a timeout on the modifier?
  • What is the cost of the action based upon?
Unity%20of%20Faith.jpg


  • Most of this will be repeat of last week as it doesn't look like things have changes.
  • I do feel it funny that you decided to add a screen shot to indicate that "Curia Actions Blocked: Yes" actually blocks the Curia Actions.
  • I still listing that the Catholic Church is Religion Catholicism is an odd choice. Can it be anything else?
  • Like the use of the smaller flag.
  • Still don't like the model taking up the left half of the picture while the background appears to want to take out eyes to the right half; the picture feels disjointed. I would suggest splitting off part (1/3) for the portrait with the parts that belong to him (name, stats, flag, etc.) and have the right (2/3) for the background image and info of the IO)
Blocked%20Papal%20Bulls.jpg


  • Thanks for using more colors.
  • I am assuming the there are the all 'curia' states
  • What color us used for 'yet to vote'?
  • If non-curia members of the Catholic Church IO can have influence then I would have them be a lighter color than the 'curia'
  • Thank you for having a different color for wasteland and not part of this map view (grey)
Papal%20Contenders.jpg


  • 'Catholic faith' not 'Catholicism faith'
  • Too much space between the text box and the ok button
Lutheranism.jpg


  • Center Start date over the start date
  • Love the background image. (I have liked all the background of the events and situation in this TT)
  • Does Martin need to be shown in the image as he is listed in the Preachers? oops, I guess that is the main active reformers.
  • What is the icon at right end of the Martin Luther reformer box (two people arm-in-arm). (Same question about the hat for Zwingli who also appears to be Catholic)
  • I like the use of the framed headshot in the preachers list. (Assuming the size issue is a bug)
Reformation%20Panel.jpg


  • Move Age icon to the title bar
  • Move Building category to subtitle after a |
  • Move construction location limits to the pop-type bar
  • remove the background box from the value of goods so it appears to be in the 'parchment' with the good icon. Second less preferable option would be to remove the 'parchment' effect and make it all the same background of the number.
  • Unclear, does this allow conversion to any religion?
  • Is this an 'estate' building? or can I just close/destroy it?
Lutheran%20Preachers.jpg


  • have the 'first level' don't put a extra left hash on the top level extend the vertical bar up towards the checkmark seal. (In this case there isn't a visual vertical bar for the first level.
  • Change 'At least one of these:' to 'Any of these'
  • move the check boxes left enough so that the vertical bars of subclauses ("all...", "at least ...") run up into them to better indicate that those belong to the subclause and reduce the horizontal space needed.
  • Is is possible to have a situation end and still be active? Why do we need both things?
End%20Requirements.jpg


  • Every member of the 'Catholic Church' can vote? or the Council of Trent?
  • I assume the invitation is into the situation.
  • If you use gain/lose show the absolute value of the number (no + or -). This is indicating a double negative.
Council%20of%20Trent2.jpg


  • What is the cross on the right for? the catholic one is in the blue banner.
  • Is the Pope model needed in picture? I think the background portrays the situation better without him.
  • 'to start the Start Law Debate' needs to be reworded.
  • "When enough debated Policies pass, the Council is perceived as successful". With the current wording of the second paragraph is sounds like any failing debate means this is a 'waste of time' and a failure.
  • There are 7 'laws' listed (should be doctrines), what occurs when 4 pass and 3 fail, do we have to wait for one of the age triggers to end the situation? Or can debates be tried again?
  • I noticed that all the listed Laws have no policy set, are they 'reset' or is that just because of how you 'triggered' the situation for the pictures?
  • Looking at the laws, I feel like I am looking at technical documents with the '[This Page Intentionally Left Blank]' because of the null set for effects.
Council%20of%20Trent4.jpg


Again sorry for the wall. I hope some of this is useful.
 
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Shouldn't these buildings be called "Lutheran Pulpits" instead of "Lutheran Preachers" since that better characterizes what the building actually was than the people who occupied those building?
 
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Shouldn't these buildings be called "Lutheran Pulpits" instead of "Lutheran Preachers" since that better characterizes what the building actually was than the people who occupied those building?
I would go a step further and change from 'Lutheran Pulpits' to a generic 'Protestant pulpits' as we see Calvinists and others are part of the reformation.
 
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