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Tinto Talks #63 - 14th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will be taking a look at three of the religions born in India: Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism, which in the game are part of the Dharmic religion group:
Dharmic.jpg

As usual, take all UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

So let’s start by taking a look at the religious divide of India at the start of the game, in 1337:
Indian Religions.jpg

We now have an interesting feature when in the religious map mode, as by hovering over a certain religion in the religious breakdown, you can check the religious spread and heatmap of that said religion. So let’s check Hinduism and Jainism, as both are present in 1337:
Hinduism spread.jpg

Jainism spread.jpg

You also have these tooltips with the most important characteristics and the flavour of each religion, as we saw in previous Tinto Talks.



Hinduism

Hinduism1.jpg

Hindu Panel.jpg

The first thing to talk about is the Hindu branches, which appear as an icon and action in the panel:
Hindu Branch1.jpg

There are four branches in Hinduism, and each one is represented through an International Organization. Here you can see all:
Hindu Branches.jpg

When you click on a Hindu IO, each has its own panel:
Hindu Branch3.jpg

In ‘Agenda’ (which is a common building block for different religions), you have a religious law set for each branch, that defines its mechanics:
Hindu Laws.jpg

This is the one for Vaishnavism:
Hindu Laws2.jpg

Vaishnavism2.jpg

Don't you love nested tooltips? Because we do!

It allows the country to activate as many as 3 Avatars of the god Vishnu, depending on having access to one of its holy sites:
Activate Avatar.jpg

And each avatar has different modifiers attached to it:
Narasimha.jpg

Captura de pantalla 2025-05-14 125751.jpg

Matsya.jpg

Shaivism:
Shaivism.jpg

Self Control.jpg

You can gain or lose Self Control by performing these actions, and also some random events:
Self Control Actions.jpg

Perform Yoga.jpg

Indulge in Feasts.jpg

Discard Wordly Possesions.jpg

Indulge in Bloodbath.jpg

Shaktism:
Shaktism.jpg

This only allows you to have 1 Avatar active at any time of 10 possible, 5 in peace times and 5 in war times. By declaring war or stopping being at war makes you change from an avatar of one category to an avatar of the other. These avatars are randomly assigned, but you can change/reroll them using the Change Avatar action. The main difference with Vaishnavism is that you don’t need to have access to a holy site:
Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar2.jpg

Candi.jpg

And Smartism:
Smartism.jpg

In Smartism, you want to have all 5 gods favored equally, or otherwise they will give you negative modifiers. You can favor one over the others, though, to get more benefits from that one, at the cost of getting these negative modifiers from the others:
Smartism.jpg

Smartism2.jpg

Favor God.jpg

Favor God2.jpg

Ganesa.jpg



Jainism
Jainism.jpg

Santara is the only country that starts with Jainism as its state religion.

Jainism starts with interesting features, as seen in the previous tooltip, of which the disallowance to declare wars without a Casus Belli might be the most striking one, as portraying the peaceful and self-defensive nature of this religion. On top of that, they also have a kind of similar behavior to Shaivism, with the addition of the Karma mechanics on top of it:
Jainism panel.jpg

Karma1.jpg

Karma2.jpg



Sikhism

Sikhism is a religion that is not present at the start of the game, but it will be able to appear after 1509 in a country that is either Hindu or Muslim, with locations of the other religion. If that happens, the following event will trigger:
Sikhism starting event.png

That will not only enable the religion and convert some pops, but will also create a unique building, the Gurgaddi, to serve as the seat of a newly created building-based country led by the Guru himself. The second option of the event allows you to convert to the newly created religion, while the third option allows you to continue playing as the newly created Sikh country.
Sikhism event b.png

Sikhism event c.png

Gurgaddi.png

Sikhism.png

The new country will have a unique government reform, with a unique heir selection making it so that basically only the gurus are able to be the rulers of it.
Guru Leadership.png

When Sikhism appears, it will also create a new IO, and the first guru will cement its bases. There will be further events for each of the historical Sikh gurus, and each subsequent guru that appears will add to that IO, configuring the religion with further teachings.
Guru teachings.png

Teachings policies.png

All Guru Teachings 1.png

All Guru Teachings 2.png


A final common feature for all of them are Holy Sites. There are several different holy sites for all religions and (and branches, in the case of Hinduism):
Vaishnavism Holy Sites.jpg

Holy Sites.jpg

These are examples of holy sites associated with the Vaishnavism branch of Hinduism.

And that’s all for today! We will continue taking a look at the Indian content this Friday, with a Tinto Flavour for the Sultanate of Delhi, and on Monday, with the Tinto Maps Feedback for the region of India. And next Wednesday, @SaintDaveUK will be hosting the Tinto Talks, with the topic being Unit Graphics. Cheers!
 
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So this is cool. Now I got a LOT of comments and questions. So this is probably going to be long.
I don’t exactly know about the timing on the Bhakti movement or lingyat or any of the others, but if it works out that this would happen during the Age of Reformation (and if the foundation of Sikhism does too) that would conveniently go a long way to making it make sense for this Age to be global.

If it’s going to take too much work to do before release, I could imagine a DLC that adds the Radical Reformation in Europe and the Bhakti movement in India to help deepen some of these religious situations.
 
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I don’t exactly know about the timing on the Bhakti movement or lingyat or any of the others, but if it works out that this would happen during the Age of Reformation (and if the foundation of Sikhism does too) that would conveniently go a long way to making it make sense for this Age to be global.

If it’s going to take too much work to do before release, I could imagine a DLC that adds the Radical Reformation in Europe and the Bhakti movement in India to help deepen some of these religious situations.
So for the Bhakti movement I have seen a variety of dates for it, Making it an age of reformation thing might work. though making it start in the age of traditions also works. the poet-saints played a major role in the development of hinduism along side the philosophers.

so for the particular traditions

Kaumaram: Veneration of Lord Murugan as the Supreme God/soul. Pretty much always around, the skanda purana dates from the 8th century if not earlier IIRC. though there were some important texts that got composed during this era which could be neat for works of art like Tiruppugal.

Ganapatya: Veneration of Lord Ganesha as the supreme god. This sect was around during the life of the great hindu sage Adi Shankara. However it was less popular then the other major sects during the medieval period. However Morya Gosavi who lived at some point during this era and he popularized Ganapatya as a sect mostly in Maharasthra. So he should be a character to help popularize this sect.

Lingyatism: This already was formed at the end of the 11th century when Basava died in 1196 IIRC. So it should be around. It would as someone else point out be patronized and supported by the Vijanagara empire.
 
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There are Saint Thomas Christians in SW India at the start, I showed in yesterday's TF comments a screenshot of them.
What religion do the Saint Thomas Christians follow?
 
Petition to have a game setting option to make the Sikh faith spawn historically? Maybe three options in the setting:
1. Historical - spawns in the location of Talwandi (which is an actual location in the game, thankfully) every single time.
2. Plausible - can spawn in any Punjabi culture location where Hinduism and Islam are both present.
3. Random - can spawn in any location in the Indian subcontinent where Hinduism and Islam are both present.

And pressing on the issue of Guru Nanak Ji's portrait again - maybe give him a long black beard and different attire?
 
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Petition to have a game setting option to make the Sikh faith spawn historically? Maybe three options in the setting:
1. Historical - spawns in the location of Talwandi (which is an actual location in the game, thankfully) every single time.
2. Plausible - can spawn in any Punjabi culture location where Hinduism and Islam are both present.
3. Random - can spawn in any location in the Indian subcontinent where Hinduism and Islam are both present.
I like this.
And pressing on the issue of Guru Nanak Ji's portrait again - maybe give him a long black beard and different attire?
we got turbans as seen by the recent flavor talk on delhi. So giving Guru nanak a turban and black beard(not sure if EU5 will have aging mechanics to turn it white) ideally the turban will be a yellowish orange, but still turban + beard and no hindu tilaka(the forehead markings) would I think be good. :)
 
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Religious and Philosophical Context in Historical India and Sindh

The representation of Dharmic religions in previous games has often lacked depth and nuance. A more accurate portrayal should differentiate between various philosophical schools within Hinduism and recognize that philosophical alignment does not necessarily dictate deity veneration.

Hindu Philosophical Schools and Sects

Hinduism encompasses diverse philosophical traditions such as Advaita, Dvaita, and Sankhya, each offering distinct metaphysical interpretations. Importantly, these philosophies are not strictly tied to the worship of specific deities.

One thing common to all sects that could be included is the importance of relevant festivals. Diwali and Holi for Vaishnavs, Navratri for Shakts, Mahashivratri for Shaivs etc.

Vaishnavism - While the Bhakti Movement influenced all forms of deity veneration in India, in popular conciousness it is Vaishnavism where it's impact is most felt. Some mechanis may be included whereby, the likes of Tulsi Das and others are able to bring Hindu texts in folk languages instead of Sanskrit, where regions like Ayodhya and Chitrakut or Braj or Panna (see Pranamis) become "pure lands" and a holy site unto themselves. Activities like reducing caste differences, bhandara (community kitchens), communal veneration would be undertaken through these new Bhakti Vaishnav sects, while for the Shaivas and Smarts the same would be undertaken by the Nathas and Akhadas respectively. For Shakts such benefits would be provided by following the tantrika paths, secret veneration and pilgrimage sites.

Smartism comprises various monastic orders in the form of the Akhadas. These Akhadas are either Shaiv or Vaishnav and have played a huge role throughout the last millenium in transmitting teachings, runnings Mandirs and bearing arms to fight. Here it is important to depict the 4 Mathas established by Adi Shankara which are home to the Shankaracharyas, the supreme authorities in the Smart tradition.

Shaktism as has already been mentioned by other commenters, animal sacrifice is a huge part of Shakt traditions. In terms of deities the 10 Mahavidyas, 9 Durgas and various regional Goddesses can be featured. In terms of holy sites you have the 51 Shakti Pithas. In all of West India - the Charan tribe must play a special role in encouraging Shaktism and the player could see regular births of women with mystical powers who can establish and destroy kingdoms (e.g. Champaner, Junagadh, Bikaner, Jodhpur etc). while in other parts of India you may have powerfule tantrika practitioners or young girls venerated as the Goddess. Another factor to consider is the role of Bharaiva.

Shaivism, a major sect within Hinduism, comprises numerous influential branches:
  • Shaiva Siddhanta was predominant in South India along with the initial Bhakti Movement.
  • Lingayatism flourished in Central India.
  • Kashmir Shaivism thrived in the North.
In addition, various monastic orders like the Pashupatas, Lakulishas, and Nathas played significant roles, particularly in Western India. The Nath sect, in particular, was instrumental in reasserting Hindu identity during periods of Islamic influence, spreading yogic teachings and reclaiming converted populations.

Misrepresentation of Buddhism in Sindh

The game's portrayal of Sammitiya Buddhism as dominant in Sindh is historically inaccurate. Sammitiya was never a majority sect in the region, and such a depiction obscures the complex religious landscape of Sindh during the medieval period.

Historical Religious Landscape of Sindh (1000–1400 CE)

Sindh was the first Indian region conquered during the early Muslim invasions. It was under Arab rule for over two centuries—first governed by Arab administrators and later by the Habbarid dynasty. By the 11th century, the native Chandravanshi Soomro Rajputs reclaimed Sindh. At this point, Buddhism had effectively vanished, with the population being approximately 75% Hindu and 25% Sunni Muslim.

Initially, the Soomros were Hindus influenced by Sunni practices. However, under the theological and political sway of the Fatimid Caliphate, many Soomros adopted Nizari Ismailism. This sect employed syncretic strategies, incorporating Hindu motifs to facilitate conversion among Hindus. Over time, however, Soomros shifted toward Sunni Islam, culminating in growing persecution of Hindus.

This period saw significant cultural and religious shifts:
  • The Lohana tribe experienced partial conversion to Ismailism.
  • A Hindu Soomro resistance persisted, particularly in Amarkot and Nagarparkar, before migrating out of Sindh in two major waves—in the late 1100s and the 1500s.
  • Jhulelal, an incarnation of Varuna, emerged as a symbolic savior of Hindu Sindhis from Muslim oppression.
In the 14th century, the Samma Dynasty, also of Chandravanshi Rajput lineage, rose to power. Unlike their predecessors, the Sammas practiced a more tolerant form of Sunni Islam, fostering coexistence.

The Natha sect—notably through the teachings of Ramdevji Maharaj from Jaisalmer—countered Ismaili influence using similar syncretic methods. Their efforts helped reintegrate Hindus who had developed hybrid religious identities, especially across Sindh, Rajasthan, and Gujarat.

Conclusion

Between 1000–1400 CE, Sindh’s religious environment was shaped by dynamic interactions among Hindus, Ismailis, and Sunnis. Ultimately, Ismaili influence declined, remaining mostly among segments of the Lohana community, while the broader Sindhi Muslim population became Hanafi Sunni and a substantial Hindu population persisted.

A more accurate and layered depiction of these dynamics in games would enrich player experience and reflect the historical realities of the region.
 
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Any particular reason why? I think the most accurate thing would be to have them as completely separate religions, like the different branches of christianity. Historically, that is what they were, until around the 1800s when movements to unify them started. This makes it seem like only the rich and powerful cared about the "branch" of hinduism and the common people were just "hindu" but this is not the case at all. People converted to specific branches of hinduism during the Bhakti Movement, and identified strongly with them. Even today the rural parts of my state are dominated by a longstanding rivlary between the Smartas and Lingayats (local Shaivite sect). Is there a logistical reason why we can't have hinduism as 4 different religions, that just have a higher tolerence of heretics than abrahamic religions, where there was maybe more friction between the branches?
Technically only Christianity, Islam, Judaism and associated sects are religions. Outside of that most of the world has traditions. It is not true that until the 1800s there was never an understanding of a Hindu identity beyond individual tradition. That distinction has existed since ancient times when the foreigners were called Mlechhas, or Anarya as opposed to the Arya (nobles) of India.
 
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I like this.

we got turbans as seen by the recent flavor talk on delhi. So giving Guru nanak a turban and black beard(not sure if EU5 will have aging mechanics to turn it white) ideally the turban will be a yellowish orange, but still turban + beard and no hindu tilaka(the forehead markings) would I think be good. :)
Definitely need turbans as they were worn all across North India, especially in the West - Gujarat, Rajasthan and Sindh. However, Guru Nanak wore a "seli topi" not a turban if you go by the earliest depictions based on fresco paintings.
 
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Can we get content for the 12 Sikh Misls gain independence? Perhaps via a situation? Seeing the Sikh religion spread throughout Punjab makes playing in the region more interesting for sure, but if would be even more interesting if Sikhs could become an actual political entity via the Sikh Confederacy and later the Sikh Empire.
1747714558220.png
 
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