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Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Islam. In EUV, it is considered a Religious Group, as Christianity or Buddhism:
Islam.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D, and 3D art WIP.

As you see, three Religions compose the group: Sunnism, Shiism, and Ibadism:
Sunnism.png

Shiism.png

Ibadism.png

They share similar features, and then inside them is where we make the religious differentiation:
Islam panel.png

The first mechanic is Schools, an old companion from EU4, but that has been reworked in EU5:
Religious School.png

Muslim countries start with a School, which gives some modifiers:
Hanafi.jpg

As you can see, each School has a different view of the other. This is important because you can invite Scholars of Schools that are available for your branch of Islam, and also don’t have a negative opinion of your chosen School.

Because, yes, the old EU4 Scholars are also present in EU5, but they’re now inside a new category, the ‘Religious Figures’, which gives some more flexibility on how to use them:
Religious Figure.jpg

Scholar.png

Scholars are now characters that can travel through the Islamic world and be invited to work for you:
Invite Scholar.png

This unlocks the possibility to change the Main School of your country to that of the Scholar:
Change Main School1.png

Change Main School2.png

Change Main School3.png

In total, we have this number of schools, with some schools being available to more than one religion:
  • 10 Sunni:
    • Ḥanafī
    • Ḥanbalī
    • Mālikī
    • Shāfi'ī
    • Ẓāhirī
    • Ash'arī
    • Māturīdī
    • Aṯarī
    • Mu'tazilī
    • Wahhābī
  • 11 Sufi - Both for Sunni and Shia, except 3:
    • Bektashi
    • Chishtī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ḵalwātī
    • Mevlevi
    • Naqshbandī (only for Sunnism)
    • Qādirī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ṣafavī
    • Shāḏilī
    • Suhrawardī
    • Īsāwī
    • Dīn-i Ilāhī
  • 8 Shia:
    • Ismā'īlī
    • Ja'farī
    • Zaydī
    • Imāmīya
    • Nizārī
    • Musta'lī
    • Alevism
    • 'Alawī
  • 1 Ibadi:
    • Ibadi - only for Ibadi
    • It also has access to all the Sunni and Shia schools, but not the Sufi ones

The main currency for the religion is Piety, again a returning concept from EU4. Piety can go from a value of -100 to +100 (representing Mysticism or Legalism respectively), giving scaling benefits to the country depending on the direction.
Piety.png

Piety will be modified towards one extreme or the other mainly through events, although there are also some ways of adding a passive monthly tendency towards one direction, including privileges and cabinet actions. Another important aspect to mention regarding piety is the fact that to be able to invite a Scholar belonging to any of the Sufi schools, the country must already be leaning towards Mysticism.

There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.
Manpower Action.png

Stability Action.png

There is also the option to perform a pilgrimage to one of the Holy Sites, as long as they are owned by the country, an ally, or someone with good relations. Performing a pilgrimage will give a small increase in piety, as well as sending the ruler on a holy journey.
Pilgrimage.png

Another important aspect to mention is the fact that Muslim countries have access to some unique laws and policies:
Iqta Law.png

Nikah Policy.png

Shariah Law Policy.png

Implementing the Sharī'ah Law will unlock an extra law, the Sharī'ah Jurisprudence, with policies dependent on the country’s main school.
Shariah Jurisprudence.png

Finally, there are a couple of unique buildings available for Islamic countries:
Madrassa.png

Sufi Loge.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, and on Friday, we will take a look at the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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This is "influential" in the sense that it might be fun to have a "rowdy scholar Ibn Taymiyya - should we listen to him or kill him?" event chain for the Mamluks, not "influential" in the sense that literally any major polity in the game was taking Athari theology seriously throughout this entire timeframe.
the point of using creedal schools as opposed to madhab is that differences in creed would definitely influence relation between states.
Creed has much less influence on society during this time period than madhhab. Creed was basically irrelevant throughout this entire period, and in any event all credal distinctions had been folded into the madhhab system (Hanafis = Maturidis, Malikis and Shafi‘is = Ash‘aris, Hanbalis = Atharis).

IT was not influential during his lifetime. The Hanbali madhhab was not "on the map" during this timeframe outside of some scattered Arabian tribes.

Madhhab determines the literal legal system of your country, as well as the training of all of your scholars and judges. Creed doesn't. During this period someone is a Maturidi because he's a Hanafi, not the other way around.
just no.
just because in this timeline it 'looks' insignificant due to dominance of Ashari/Maturidi schools, doesn't mean it fundamentally is not significant.
also, wrong that all Sunni creedal schools are tied to the madhab, only Athari does. the others are not. Hanafi for example is not exclusively Maturidi, there were a lot of Hanafi Asharis too and there were few Hanafi Atharis.
IT was influential during his timeline, just because the Ashari scholars used state power to suppress him doesn't mean he was not influential. his funeral alone was attended by hundreds of thousands and many of his students are considered among Islam's greatest scholars.

again, which state legal system will differ that much if you choose either Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki or Hanafi?
like i said before, most of the differences are in the matter of worship.
 
It is not, Umayyads and Ottomans (especially under Suleyman) were also legalist, they had very different ideas from Salafis. Legalism is used to represent a centralized and lawful religious authority, while mysticism represents a decentralized or syncretic form of Islam. Sufism as a name can work, but some Sufi organizations in theory can be legalistic as well, it is complicated, so better saying as mysticism. Just compare Rumi with Safavids or Chechen Sufism, massive difference... :p

During EU3 and old days of EU4, Islam was also represented by weak versus fanatic piety, to show how some nations were more tolerant and others more strict, sadly this mechanic is gone.

My entire issue is that, they did so much work for Christianity, and Islam feels like a copy-pasted version from EU4 with some marriage mechanics... Islam played a critical role in this period, yet it got less attention than other religions.
the Kadizedelis that influenced the Ottoman in early 1600s comes to mind when it's about 'legalist' Sufi-Maturidi movement.

yeah, Islam contents are so damn lackluster and highly inaccurate compared to Christianity
 
the point of using creedal schools as opposed to madhab is that differences in creed would definitely influence relation between states.
You keep saying this, but you haven't provided a single speck of evidence that this is true. I've read reams of Ottoman and Mamluk internal and external propaganda, creed NEVER comes up. It wasn't a relevant issue during this timeframe!
just no.
just because in this timeline it 'looks' insignificant due to dominance of Ashari/Maturidi schools, doesn't mean it fundamentally is not significant.
By what standard are you claiming this doctrinal difference that results in essentially no real-world ramifications during this entire period of time is actually secretly significant?
also, wrong that all Sunni creedal schools are tied to the madhab, only Athari does. the others are not. Hanafi for example is not exclusively Maturidi, there were a lot of Hanafi Asharis too and there were few Hanafi Atharis.
And nobody cared! It didn't matter!
IT was influential during his timeline, just because the Ashari scholars used state power to suppress him doesn't mean he was not influential. his funeral alone was attended by hundreds of thousands and many of his students are considered among Islam's greatest scholars.
Ibn Taymiyya was recuperated in the modern era by Salafis, during his lifetime and afterwards he was not influential as a scholar - certainly not influential enough for this to underpin the elevation of creed to primary game mechanic in EU5.
again, which state legal system will differ that much if you choose either Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki or Hanafi?
like i said before, most of the differences are in the matter of worship.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Every scholar is trained in a madhhab tradition. These systems have completely different precedents, completely different approaches to novel legal issues, completely different scholarly lineages. This affects every aspect of the legal system, touching all spheres of life - commerce, family status, inheritance, criminal punishments.
 
May God guide you.

I’m quite baffled at your response, I’ll just take your word that you meant nothing by your statement. I’m sorry if I seemed aggressive.

“Allāh does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allāh loves those who act justly.“ 60:8
You may want to re-read his original comment, he mentioned wanting to fund "female genital mutilation," in a video game forum, he is not just extreme Islamophobe, he probably plays these games to live out crusader fantasies. I hope that whoever is moderating these forums does not think FGM is a joke or a gotcha against Muslims, especially since it is not in accordance with Sharia.
 
We've made tweaks, and the pops of following religious groups can be part of the Dhimmi estate: Christian, Israelite, Zoroastrian, Dharmic, and Buddhist.
Who is or is not Dhimmi should be dynamic and shouldn't be restricted to these faiths, since only Christian and Israelite faiths were originally dhimmi and all others were added, there should be an option for other states to create a dhimmi estate given a political necessity.

Also are there any ways for religions like Islam and Christianity to be syncretic with pagans as took place in history, like the Sahel and the Mesoamerica for example. Is that attempted to be represented through mysticism? Countries with diverse religious beliefs often became syncretic by necessity. EU4 and other games usually encourage and incentivize the player to wipe out any religion but their own, but that did not happen as easily as it was simulated and was often not necessary.
 
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You may want to re-read his original comment, he mentioned wanting to fund "female genital mutilation," in a video game forum, he is not just extreme Islamophobe, he probably plays these games to live out crusader fantasies. I hope that whoever is moderating these forums does not think FGM is a joke or a gotcha against Muslims, especially since it is not in accordance with Sharia.
Allāh will judge him, if he wants to attack religions he should start with his own scripture.
 
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You keep saying this, but you haven't provided a single speck of evidence that this is true. I've read reams of Ottoman and Mamluk internal and external propaganda, creed NEVER comes up. It wasn't a relevant issue during this timeframe!

By what standard are you claiming this doctrinal difference that results in essentially no real-world ramifications during this entire period of time is actually secretly significant?

And nobody cared! It didn't matter!

Ibn Taymiyya was recuperated in the modern era by Salafis, during his lifetime and afterwards he was not influential as a scholar - certainly not influential enough for this to underpin the elevation of creed to primary game mechanic in EU5.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Every scholar is trained in a madhhab tradition. These systems have completely different precedents, completely different approaches to novel legal issues, completely different scholarly lineages. This affects every aspect of the legal system, touching all spheres of life - commerce, family status, inheritance, criminal punishments.
because Mamluk and Ottoman were literally Maturidi/Ashari?
it did matter, just because Asharis/Maturidis dominated this period of time doesn't mean it changed anything. hundreds of years of creedal rivalry between ahl al hadith (Athari) and Ahl al-Kalam (Ashari/Maturidi) was and is still alive until today.
Ashari/Maturidi consider the Atharis as deviant and the opposite is true.
it's you who have no idea about what you are talking about, just go read what the later Hanbalis about Ibn Taymiyyah, he was that influential.

like i said before, what gameplay mechanic can be derived from your 'understanding' of madhab?
can you give me one?

'commerce, family status, inheritance, criminal punishments'

this right here is so vague and can't be really translated to gameplay mechanic, not to mention that most madhab doesn't have that much difference in them. the most differences are in the matter of worships which won't be translated to the gameplay mechanic anyway.

meanwhile for creed, it'd for example give penalties for creed that hostile to each other, or you can choose to respect other creeds or consider other creeds as infidel like Ibn Tumart.
madhab can be run on the background because in Ottoman for example, they tolerate other madhabs, or you can even choose no madhab and let them compete with each other in the background
ditto to Sufism and legalism, it can be translated to the gameplay mechanic, like the slider in the EU IV but with added caveats like if you choose to be more mystic, you can add to support Sufi orders. so instead of becoming 'schools', Sufi orders can automatically sprout or spread in some areas and the state can choose to support it or rooted it out while giving stability penalty to the area where Sufi orders are strong.
 
You keep saying this, but you haven't provided a single speck of evidence that this is true. I've read reams of Ottoman and Mamluk internal and external propaganda, creed NEVER comes up. It wasn't a relevant issue during this timeframe!

By what standard are you claiming this doctrinal difference that results in essentially no real-world ramifications during this entire period of time is actually secretly significant?

And nobody cared! It didn't matter!

Ibn Taymiyya was recuperated in the modern era by Salafis, during his lifetime and afterwards he was not influential as a scholar - certainly not influential enough for this to underpin the elevation of creed to primary game mechanic in EU5.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Every scholar is trained in a madhhab tradition. These systems have completely different precedents, completely different approaches to novel legal issues, completely different scholarly lineages. This affects every aspect of the legal system, touching all spheres of life - commerce, family status, inheritance, criminal punishments.

I’ve had enough of your lies.

He had purchase in the government and influence just like many other theologians. Denying this is intellectual dishonesty and an insult to historical integrity.
 

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How come the Sharifate of al Hillah is not on this list? Do they not start as Shias at game start?

1750518490434.png

Based on the numbers from the original Persia and Caucuses Tinto Maps, it seems the Sharifate would have around ~130k pops, making it one of the bigger shia states.

Also I'm not fully convinced that shias should have alcohol as banned, honestly, even sunnis should probably not have the import of alcohol banned. Many kings and even scholars were known to drink, and certain sectors of towns were allowed access to drinks (namely dhimmi areas). That's an entirely tangential point though.
 
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I don’t believe Paradox will be able to represent Islam in eu5 properly, they simply don’t understand.

So I suggest they keep it simple, don’t dive deeply into schools of thought, to simplify have them exist with different modifiers is better than you misrepresenting our religion.

It’s acceptable to admit ignorance, and lack of understanding to implement our faith. But it would be unacceptable to advertise that your representation of the East is based on a proper understanding of the Islamic world. Thanks.
 
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I don’t believe Paradox will be able to represent Islam in eu5 properly, they simply don’t understand.

So I suggest they keep it simple, don’t dive deeply into schools of thought, to simplify have them exist with different modifiers is better than you misrepresenting our religion.

It’s acceptable to admit ignorance, and lack of understanding to implement our faith. But it would be unacceptable to advertise that your representation of the East is based on a proper understanding of the Islamic world. Thanks.

This is not helpful, they did a great job with other religions, it is just a matter of attention that they clearly neglected to focus on other religions. Even during the reveals, every single Muslim women wore niqab regardless of culture, this is Paradox being lazy rather than not understanding Islam. They did similar lazy-decisions during Victoria 3, Ottoman Empire didn't even research 'line-infantry' at 1830s... and Islamic clergy didn't get unique traits despite of the fact Buddhists, Orthodox-Christians, Confucianists, Hindus, Shintos, and Sikhs all got unique traits. They slowly updated VIC3 to add more flavors, but EU5 needs to be more professional.

I have no issues if they wish to add MENA or Islamic themed DLCs in the future, but the base game should have more flavor and detail. They also have some historians, so again, I don't think the lack of understanding is the issue, rather the lack of focus.
 
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This is not helpful, they did a great job with other religions, it is just a matter of attention that they clearly neglected to focus on other religions. Even during the reveals, every single Muslim women wore niqab regardless of culture, this is Paradox being lazy rather than not understanding Islam. They did similar lazy-decisions during Victoria 3, Ottoman Empire didn't even research 'line-infantry' at 1830s... and Islamic clergy didn't get unique traits despite of the fact Buddhists, Orthodox-Christians, Confucianists, Hindus, Shintos, and Sikhs all got unique traits. They slowly updated VIC3 to add more flavors, but EU5 needs to be more professional.

I have no issues if they wish to add MENA or Islamic themed DLCs in the future, but the base game should have more flavor and detail. They also have some historians, so again, I don't think the lack of understanding is the issue, rather the lack of focus.
And do you expect them to truly represent our religion?
 
This is not helpful, they did a great job with other religions, it is just a matter of attention that they clearly neglected to focus on other religions. Even during the reveals, every single Muslim women wore niqab regardless of culture, this is Paradox being lazy rather than not understanding Islam. They did similar lazy-decisions during Victoria 3, Ottoman Empire didn't even research 'line-infantry' at 1830s... and Islamic clergy didn't get unique traits despite of the fact Buddhists, Orthodox-Christians, Confucianists, Hindus, Shintos, and Sikhs all got unique traits. They slowly updated VIC3 to add more flavors, but EU5 needs to be more professional.

I have no issues if they wish to add MENA or Islamic themed DLCs in the future, but the base game should have more flavor and detail. They also have some historians, so again, I don't think the lack of understanding is the issue, rather the lack of focus.
And my comment alluded to the fact they don't put enough attention, "It would be unacceptable to advertise that your representation of the East is based on a proper understanding of the Islamic world."

This entire developer thread regarding Islam is lackluster at most. Or do you disagree?
 
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well this sh.........attering my expectation

The wali salih

In Sufism, the veneration of walis salih is common paractice
  • Their shrines (maqāmāt, dargahs) become sites of visitation or like local holy site(ziyarah).
  • People ask for duʿā (prayers) or intercession through them.
  • Celebrations like Urs (death anniversaries of saints) are observed, especially in South Asia, North Africa, and Turkey
piety very important in islam its the line btw having nomad (tribale class in game) army at your back or having it infront of your gate piety piety should impact those four thing
  • Increase Levy size for tribal class and umara
  • increase your tax efficiency
  • Increase muslim vassel opnion
  • increase proximty level
  • increase opinion peasnt class and clergy class
And spending on your throne should decrease you piety
 
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First, I want to point out that you have great structures for later rebalance. However, the way you chose to portray Islam now is bad and honestly disappointing.
However, I’m convinced that you will improve on it, and I would like to give some insights and I hope it will help.
I think that most of this can be translated into games mechanics.

So, here goes nothing.

Islamic tradition is structured along three interconnected dimensions:


Law: Madhhab / School of jurisprudence (fiqh) – مذهب
A madhhab is a legal school that provides a methodology to derive Islamic rulings from sources like the Quran, Ahadith, Sunnah, consensus (ijmāʿ), and reasoning (qiyās or other tools).

Theology: ʿAqīda / Creed or belief – عقيدة
ʿAqida outlines what Muslims believe about God, prophecy, the afterlife, divine will, and leadership.

Spirituality: Ṭariqa/Sufi order or (mystical) path – طريقة
Sufism (tasawuf) is a spiritual discipline of Islam, seeking closeness to God through purification of the soul, dhikr (remembrance), and guidance from a spiritual master (shaykh). A tariqa is a structured Sufi order.

Each Islamic group (Sunni, Shia, Ibadi) organizes these dimensions differently.

1-Sunnism
Sunni Madhhabs:

-Hanafi founded by Abu Hanifa (d. 767), prevalent in Central Asia, India, Turkey and the Balkans.
Emphasizes analogy (Qiyas), opinion (Ray) and preference (Istihsan). Tolerant of innovation in legal reasoning. This is the most flexible and structured school of law.

-Maliki founded by Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), prevalent in North and West Africa, Andalusia.
Emphasizes the practice of the people of Madina ('aml ahl al madina). Cautious towards innovation. Moderately flexible.

-Shafi'i founded by Al-Safi'i (d. 820), prevalent in East Africa, Southeast Asia, Egypt.
Emphasis on hadith and analogy (Qiyas). Balanced and systematic approach towards legal innovation.

-Hanbali founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 855), prevalent in Arabia. Literalist and relies heavily of the Quran and authentic Ahadith only. Least flexible and rejects innovation in law.

However, they all consider each other righteous.
Their founders often praised each other. Shafi'i was a student of Malik ibn Anas for example.

Note that there used to exist a fifth school called Zahiri which was prevalent in earlier Andalusia, North Africa and before that in Iraq. It died out during the 1300's.
It strictly adhered to literalism and focused on the outward/apparent meaning (الظاهر) which was taken from the Quran, Ahadith and consensus from the first companions (ijma').


Sunni ʿAqidas:
-Ashʿari founded by Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (d. 936) who was originally a Mu'tazili. He didn't follow any madhhab himself; he apparently considered them all equally right.
They accept reason to support faith, God's attributes are interpreted allegorically, the Quran is uncreated.
Their view on free will is that God creates the actions and humans "acquire" them. They reject anthropomorphism and are rationalists within sunni boundaries.
Often follow shafi'i and maliki schools.

-Maturidi founded by Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (d. 944) who was a follower of the Hanafi school himself. Stronger rationalism than Ash'ari. God's attributes are usually allegorical, and the Quran is uncreated.
They emphasize free will and reject anthropomorphism too. Slightly more rational than Ash'ari and often linked to the Hanafi school.

Those two are considered as Ahl al ray (اهل الراي) - more rationalists and reasoners who use opinion (Ray) and local practices.

-Athari founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 855) who's also the founder of the eponym school.
Traditionalist, strict textualism and reject speculative theology.
God's attributes are literal not metaphorical. The Quran is uncreated. Humans have free will, their actions are created by God but they take moral responsability through their will and intentions (Edited thanks to the very good answer below).
Often accept the apparent meaning without asking about the hidden (the why). Often linked to Hanbali school since they share the same founder.


They're Ahl al Hadith (اهل الحديث) - traditionalists who always refer to proofs from the Quran and authentic Ahadith while only looking for the literal meaning.

Other creeds used to exist in Sunnism but they're all extinct by 1337.
The most notable was the Mu’tazili. Deeply rationalist, neutral in the matter of Ali vs Abu Bakr conflict. The Quran is created; evil can’t come from God since he won’t command anything wrong. It necessarily comes from humans. So, they believed in absolute free will.

Sunni Sufi Orders:
Those are just examples.
Qadiriyya founded by Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani (d. 1166) One of the oldest orders
Naqshbandiyya founded by Baha al-Din Naqshband (d. 1389) Silent dhikr; strong in Central Asia
Chishtiyya founded by Mu'in al-Din Chishti (d. 1236) Popular in India
Shadhiliyya founded by Abu al-Hasan al-Shadhili (d. 1258) North Africa & Egypt


All Sunni madhhabs can be combined with a Sufi tariqa. Most Sunnis Sufis follow Ashʿari or Maturidi theology.
Any school can follow any theology even if there are some predominant patterns.


2-Shia

First there are key divergences between the 3 main branches of Shia:

-Ja'fari believe in 12 imams, the final one is Muhammad al-Mahdi, and he's occulted. The very nature of the imamate is divine (as divinely appointed) and so he's infallible. The authority of the Imam is absolute in law and theology

-Zayidi have no fixed number of Imam, and they don't believe in occultation. The Imam is appointed and must be pious, he's not infallible and act as a political and moral guide.

-Isma'ili believe in 7 major imams with a continuing line after them. Their imam is divinely appointed and acts as a cosmic guide who reveals the hidden meanings of the Quran. Heavy emphasis on esoterism.

Shia Madhhabs:
-Ja'fari, prevalent in Iraq, Iran, resembles sunni Hanafi in some methods.
They use the Quran, sunnah via Imams, ijma' (consensus) and 'aql (reason).
They have specific rulings on certain matters like inheritance, ritual purity and temporary marriages for example.

-Zayidi, prevalent in Yemen, resemble sunni Hanafi school.
They use the Quran, the sunnah (from the prophet's family) and reason as sources.
They resemble sunnis in their methods and are/were even considered as a fifth sunni madhhab by some scholars.

-Isma'ili, prevalent among Shias in India and East Africa, esoteric, less focused on fiqh.
Emphasis on hidden/inner meaning. The imam is the ultimate guide. Their rulings are often symbolic and highly spiritualized.


Shia 'Aqidas:
-Ja'fari : God's attributes are similar to Mu'tazila (the extinct sunni theology I was referring to earlier) and emphasis on unity. Believes in free will, Imam is an infallible guide who interprets the Shari'a. Believe in occultation of the 12th imam. Believe in heaven/hell and bodily resurrection.

-Zayidi : Strong mu'tazila influence and strong belief in free will. Imam is a religious and political leader and is not infallible. They don't believe in occultation. They believe in the afterlife (bodily resurrection, heaven and hell).

For both, theology is deeply rational and draws from Mu'tazila heritage.

-Isma’ili: Esoteric and allegorical approach, free will within cosmic unity. The imam is the spiritual axis of the universe (Qutb). Some branches have hidden imams, and some others have living ones. The afterlife is symbolic or metaphysic, with no bodily resurrection. Some believe in reincarnation (transmigration of the soul / tanasukh).


Shia Spirituality ('irfan):
Shia Sufism exists but is often known as 'irfan (mystical knowledge).
Central figures: Mulla Sadra, Sayyid Hayder Amuli.

Emphasizes metaphysical unity, often more philosophical than Sunni Sufism.
Shia-affiliated orders include for example Nimatullahiyya, Dhahabiyya (and the famous Safawiyya).
Always trace spiritual lineage through ʿAlī and the Imams.


3-Ibadi

Ibadi Madhhab:

Completely independent school from the 7th century.
Emphasizes communal justice, conservative piety, and elective leadership.
Found mostly in Oman, Mzab in Algeria and East Africa coast.

Ibadi ʿAqīda:
Emphasizes divine justice, moral responsibility, and God’s transcendence.
Leadership is elective, not hereditary.
Rejects anthropomorphism.
Critical of both Sunni and Shia historical-political theology.

Ibadi and Sufism:
Ibadis do not have Sufi orders.
Emphasis is on simplicity, justice, and moderation.
Mysticism is not institutionalized; inner piety is encouraged, but without formal tariqas.



VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:
The key civilizational shift in Islamic history is the transition from a legally-and politically-centered Arab-dominated Islamic world (7th–10th c.) to a more spiritual, Sufi-oriented, and non-Arab-led Islamic world after the Mongol invasions and their conversion to Islam (13th c. onward).

The Early Islamic Era (7th–10th c.):

The Arab Caliphates (Umayyad then Abbasid) held centralized political and religious authority.
Islam was primarily transmitted through Arabic language, Arab leadership, and legal scholarship.
The rise of the madhhabs and early 'ulama marked a legalistic and textual phase.
Fiqh (jurisprudence) became the dominant form of Islamic authority.
Qur’an and Ahadith interpretation governed public and private life.
'Aqida was defined and defended, especially during theological crises like the mihna.


The Post-Mongol Islamic World (13th c. onward):
The Mongol invasions (13th c.), especially the destruction of Baghdad in 1258, shattered the Abbasid Caliphate, ending centuries of -often nominally- centralized Arab rule.
Many ʿUlama and institutions were killed or scattered.
Political vacuum + trauma led to alternative sources of authority, especially Sufi saints, zawiyah/khanqah, and turuq (orders).


Rise of Spiritual Power:
Sufi shuyukh and "saints" became moral guides, sometimes rulers.
Their Baraka (spiritual grace) often outranked legal credentials.
Conversions across Central Asia (the Mongols), India and West Africa spread through Sufis, not jurists.
Vernacular languages rise, spiritual poetry becomes central (for example Jalal al-Din al-Rumi, Yunus Emre, Bulleh Shah).
States patronized Sufi orders for legitimacy (Ottomans, Safavids, Mughals).


Sufi turuq became intermediaries between the people and Islam, especially in:
Anatolia and Balkans (e.g., Mevleviyya, Bektashiyya).
Persia and Central Asia (e.g., Kubrawiyya, Naqshbandiyya).
India (e.g., Chishtiyya, Suhrawardiyya).
North and West Africa (e.g., Qādiriyya, Tijaniyya).


Duality of power emerged:
Legal Scholars ('Ulama) vs Sufi Saints (Awliya)
Textual knowledge (fiqh, ahadith) vs Spiritual charisma (baraka, "miracles")
Madrasas, courts vs zawiya, khanqah, dargahs
Urban elites, judges, caliphs vs Rural masses, mystic kings, frontier rulers
Preserving orthodoxy, law, social control vs Providing spiritual hope, healing, identity

This dual system was often mutually reinforced, though sometimes in conflict.


Some regional examples:
-Ottoman Empire combined hanafi legalism with patronage of Sufi orders like the Bektashiyya and Mevleviyya.
The Shaykh al-Islam (top jurist) shared influence with popular Sufi saints.

-Mamluk & post-Mongol Egypt where sufis became defenders of cities and spiritual leaders of the people.
Ibn 'Ata Allah, al-Sha'rani and others redefined the spiritual elite.


-Safavid Iran began as a Sufi tariqa (Safaviyya), then created a Shia state.
Merged Ja’fari ‘aqida with Sufi symbols, though later moved toward legalism.

-India where sufi orders like the Chishtiyya and Suhrawardiyya spread Islam through hospitality, poetry, and service, not conquest.
Coexisted (sometimes uneasily) with ‘ulama connected to Deobandi, Ahl al hadith or Shia traditions.

So local Islam adapted to traditions and cultural context. The shift in authority created fragmented religious leadership which led to the slow fragmentation and then disappearance of the Ummah as a real entity.
The rise of folk practices was later criticized by reformers (Wahhabi, Salafi, modernist).


Bonus 1: The concept of the “Shadow of God on earth”.
The Ruler is seen as God’s representative, executing divine justice and maintaining worldly order.
This doesn’t appear in the Quran nor in the Ahadith. It emerged in early political Islamic administration and may have been drawn from Persian and Roman political theologies that sacralized kingship.
By the time of the Abbasids, the caliph were not prophets but chosen by God to lead.

-Seljuks were the first to introduce the fusion of the Persianate-Islamic kingship with Turkic military ethics.
They adopted the idea of their Sultan being the Shadow of God to give themselves religious/political legitimacy outside the caliphal structure. They developed famous books of law that blend Islamic law with pragmatic rules.

-Mamluks rather portrayed themselves as “defender of the faith”, enforcers of Islam and protectors of the holy cities. Their legitimacy came from their military might and enforcement of religious duties.

-Ottomans institutionalized and used the concept introduced by the Seljuks to legitimize their absolute rule under the banner of Islam. They combined this with their role of protectors of the holy cities.

-Mughals didn’t portray themselves as the Shadow of God but rather emphasized their role as divinely appointed rulers to uphold order and protect the faith. They were more pragmatic and closer to the Mamluks in this.

-Safavids used a related concept as Shadows of the hidden Imam. Since they were Ja’fari and the imam is in occultation, they portray themselves as his representatives. They’re his earthly agents. Strong messianic and spiritual overtone.

So, the ruler reflected divine justice on Earth, tasked with maintaining order (nidham) and punishing injustice (dhalm).
In exchange of state patronage and enforcement of Islam, the ‘Ulama often upheld this ideology. They issued Fatawa for taxation, war and politics, endorsing the sultan’s rule as divinely sanctioned.
Sufi orders blessed the ruler as God’s chosen agent, tying their baraka to the throne and acting as cultural brokers in the countryside to legitimate the ruler’s authority.


Bonus 2: Architecture of the Islamic world
To finish on a lighter note, please stop portraying Islamic architecture as a single entity that’s issued from the confines of the Arabian desert.
You have tons of references that show how diverse our civilization is. We don’t all wear the same clothes and we don’t all have the same architecture.
Here are some forms of diversity.

1000001816.png
 
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First, I want to point out that you have great structures for later rebalance. However, the way you chose to portray Islam now is bad and honestly disappointing.
However, I’m convinced that you will improve on it, and I would like to give some insights and I hope it will help.
I think that most of this can be translated into games mechanics.

So, here goes nothing.

Islamic tradition is structured along three interconnected dimensions:


Law: Madhhab / School of jurisprudence (fiqh) – مذهب
A madhhab is a legal school that provides a methodology to derive Islamic rulings from sources like the Quran, Ahadith, Sunnah, consensus (ijmāʿ), and reasoning (qiyās or other tools).

Theology: ʿAqīda / Creed or belief – عقيدة
ʿAqida outlines what Muslims believe about God, prophecy, the afterlife, divine will, and leadership.

Spirituality: Ṭariqa/Sufi order or (mystical) path – طريقة
Sufism (tasawuf) is a spiritual discipline of Islam, seeking closeness to God through purification of the soul, dhikr (remembrance), and guidance from a spiritual master (shaykh). A tariqa is a structured Sufi order.

Each Islamic group (Sunni, Shia, Ibadi) organizes these dimensions differently.

1-Sunnism
Sunni Madhhabs:

-Hanafi founded by Abu Hanifa (d. 767), prevales in Central Asia, India, Turkey and the Balkans.
Emphasizes analogy (Qiyas), opinion (Ray) and preference (Istihsan). Tolerant of innovation in legal reasoning. This is the most flexible and structured school of law.

-Maliki founded by Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), prevalent in North and West Africa, Andalusia.
Emphasizes the practice of the people of Madina ('aml ahl al madina). Cautious towards innovation. Moderately flexible.

-Shafi'i founded by Al-Safi'i (d. 820), prevalent in East Africa, Southeast Asia, Egypt.
Emphasis on hadith and analogy (Qiyas). Balanced and systematic approach towards legal innovation.

-Hanbali founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 855), prevalent in Arabia. Literalist and relies heavily of the Quran and authentic Ahadith only. Least flexible and rejects innovation in law.

However, they all consider each other righteous.
Their founders often praised each other. Shafi'i was a student of Malik ibn Anas for example.

Note that there used to exist a fifth school called Zahiri which was prevalent in earlier Andalusia, North Africa and before that in Iraq. It died out during the 1300's.
It strictly adhered to literalism and focused on the outward/apparent meaning (الظاهر) which was taken from the Quran, Ahadith and consensus from the first companions (ijma').


Sunni ʿAqidas:
-Ashʿari founded by Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (d. 936) who was originally a Mu'tazili. He didn't follow any madhhab himself; he apparently considered them all equally right.
They accept reason to support faith, God's attributes are interpreted allegorically, the Quran is uncreated.
Their view on free will is that God creates the actions and humans "acquire" them. They reject anthropomorphism and are rationalists within sunni boundaries.
Often follow shafi'i and maliki schools.

-Maturidi founded by Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (d. 944) who was a follower of the Hanafi school himself. Stronger rationalism than Ash'ari. God's attributes are usually allegorical, and the Quran is uncreated.
They emphasize free will and reject anthropomorphism too. Slightly more rational than Ash'ari and often linked to the Hanafi school.

Those two are considered as Ahl al ray (اهل الراي) - more rationalists and reasoners who use opinion (Ray) and local practices.

-Athari founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 855) who's also the founder of the eponym school.
Traditionalist, strict textualism and reject speculative theology.
God's attributes are literal not metaphorical. The Quran is uncreated. Humans have no real free will. Often accept the apparent meaning without asking about the hidden (the why). Often linked to Hanbali school since they share the same founder.

They're Ahl al Hadith (اهل الحديث) - traditionalists who always refer to proofs from the Quran and authentic Ahadith while only looking for the literal meaning.

Other creeds used to exist in Sunnism but they're all extinct by 1337.
The most notable was the Mu’tazili. Deeply rationalist, neutral in the matter of Ali vs Abu Bakr conflict. The Quran is created; evil can’t come from God since he won’t command anything wrong. It necessarily comes from humans. So, they believed in absolute free will.

Sunni Sufi Orders:
Those are just examples.
Qadiriyya founded by Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani (d. 1166) One of the oldest orders
Naqshbandiyya founded by Baha al-Din Naqshband (d. 1389) Silent dhikr; strong in Central Asia
Chishtiyya founded by Mu'in al-Din Chishti (d. 1236) Popular in India
Shadhiliyya founded by Abu al-Hasan al-Shadhili (d. 1258) North Africa & Egypt


All Sunni madhhabs can be combined with a Sufi tariqa. Most Sunnis Sufis follow Ashʿari or Maturidi theology.
Any school can follow any theology even if there are some predominant patterns.


2-Shia

First there are key divergences between the 3 main branches of Shia:

-Ja'fari believe in 12 imams, the final one is Muhammad al-Mahdi, and he's occulted. The very nature of the imamate is divine (as divinely appointed) and so he's infallible. The authority of the Imam is absolute in law and theology

-Zayidi have no fixed number of Imam, and they don't believe in occultation. The Imam is appointed and must be pious, he's not infallible and act as a political and moral guide.

-Isma'ili believe in 7 major imams with a continuing line after them. Their imam is divinely appointed and acts as a cosmic guide who reveals the hidden meanings of the Quran. Heavy emphasis on esoterism.

Shia Madhhabs:
-Ja'fari, prevalent in Iraq, Iran, resembles sunni Hanafi in some methods.
They use the Quran, sunnah via Imams, ijma' (consensus) and 'aql (reason).
They have specific rulings on certain matters like inheritance, ritual purity and temporary marriages for example.

-Zayidi, prevalent in Yemen, resemble sunni Hanafi school.
They use the Quran, the sunnah (from the prophet's family) and reason as sources.
They resemble sunnis in their methods and are/were even considered as a fifth sunni madhhab by some scholars.

-Isma'ili, prevalent among Shias in India and East Africa, esoteric, less focused on fiqh.
Emphasis on hidden/inner meaning. The imam is the ultimate guide. Their rulings are often symbolic and highly spiritualized.


Shia 'Aqidas:
-Ja'fari : God's attributes are similar to Mu'tazila (the extinct sunni theology I was referring to earlier) and emphasis on unity. Believes in free will, Imam is an infallible guide who interprets the Shari'a. Believe in occultation of the 12th imam. Believe in heaven/hell and bodily resurrection.

-Zayidi : Strong mu'tazila influence and strong belief in free will. Imam is a religious and political leader and is not infallible. They don't believe in occultation. They believe in the afterlife (bodily resurrection, heaven and hell).

For both, theology is deeply rational and draws from Mu'tazila heritage.

-Isma’ili: Esoteric and allegorical approach, free will within cosmic unity. The imam is the spiritual axis of the universe (Qutb). Some branches have hidden imams, and some others have living ones. The afterlife is symbolic or metaphysic, with no bodily resurrection. Some believe in reincarnation (transmigration of the soul / tanasukh).


Shia Spirituality ('irfan):
Shia Sufism exists but is often known as 'irfan (mystical knowledge).
Central figures: Mulla Sadra, Sayyid Hayder Amuli.

Emphasizes metaphysical unity, often more philosophical than Sunni Sufism.
Shia-affiliated orders include for example Nimatullahiyya, Dhahabiyya (and the famous Safawiyya).
Always trace spiritual lineage through ʿAlī and the Imams.


3-Ibadi

Ibadi Madhhab:

Completely independent school from the 7th century.
Emphasizes communal justice, conservative piety, and elective leadership.
Found mostly in Oman, Mzab in Algeria and East Africa coast.

Ibadi ʿAqīda:
Emphasizes divine justice, moral responsibility, and God’s transcendence.
Leadership is elective, not hereditary.
Rejects anthropomorphism.
Critical of both Sunni and Shia historical-political theology.

Ibadi and Sufism:
Ibadis do not have Sufi orders.
Emphasis is on simplicity, justice, and moderation.
Mysticism is not institutionalized; inner piety is encouraged, but without formal tariqas.



VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:
The key civilizational shift in Islamic history is the transition from a legally-and politically-centered Arab-dominated Islamic world (7th–10th c.) to a more spiritual, Sufi-oriented, and non-Arab-led Islamic world after the Mongol invasions and their conversion to Islam (13th c. onward).

The Early Islamic Era (7th–10th c.):

The Arab Caliphates (Umayyad then Abbasid) held centralized political and religious authority.
Islam was primarily transmitted through Arabic language, Arab leadership, and legal scholarship.
The rise of the madhhabs and early 'ulama marked a legalistic and textual phase.
Fiqh (jurisprudence) became the dominant form of Islamic authority.
Qur’an and Ahadith interpretation governed public and private life.
'Aqida was defined and defended, especially during theological crises like the mihna.


The Post-Mongol Islamic World (13th c. onward):
The Mongol invasions (13th c.), especially the destruction of Baghdad in 1258, shattered the Abbasid Caliphate, ending centuries of -often nominally- centralized Arab rule.
Many ʿUlama and institutions were killed or scattered.
Political vacuum + trauma led to alternative sources of authority, especially Sufi saints, zawiyah/khanqah, and turuq (orders).


Rise of Spiritual Power:
Sufi shuyukh and "saints" became moral guides, sometimes rulers.
Their Baraka (spiritual grace) often outranked legal credentials.
Conversions across Central Asia (the Mongols), India and West Africa spread through Sufis, not jurists.
Vernacular languages rise, spiritual poetry becomes central (for example Jalal al-Din al-Rumi, Yunus Emre, Bulleh Shah).
States patronized Sufi orders for legitimacy (Ottomans, Safavids, Mughals).


Sufi turuq became intermediaries between the people and Islam, especially in:
Anatolia and Balkans (e.g., Mevleviyya, Bektashiyya).
Persia and Central Asia (e.g., Kubrawiyya, Naqshbandiyya).
India (e.g., Chishtiyya, Suhrawardiyya).
North and West Africa (e.g., Qādiriyya, Tijaniyya).


Duality of power emerged:
Legal Scholars ('Ulama) vs Sufi Saints (Awliya)
Textual knowledge (fiqh, ahadith) vs Spiritual charisma (baraka, "miracles")
Madrasas, courts vs zawiya, khanqah, dargahs
Urban elites, judges, caliphs vs Rural masses, mystic kings, frontier rulers
Preserving orthodoxy, law, social control vs Providing spiritual hope, healing, identity

This dual system was often mutually reinforced, though sometimes in conflict.


Some regional examples:
-Ottoman Empire combined hanafi legalism with patronage of Sufi orders like the Bektashiyya and Mevleviyya.
The Shaykh al-Islam (top jurist) shared influence with popular Sufi saints.

-Mamluk & post-Mongol Egypt where sufis became defenders of cities and spiritual leaders of the people.
Ibn 'Ata Allah, al-Sha'rani and others redefined the spiritual elite.


-Safavid Iran:
Began as a Sufi tariqa (Safaviyya), then created a Shia state.
Merged Ja’fari ‘aqida with Sufi symbols, though later moved toward legalism.

-India:
Sufi orders like the Chishtiyya and Suhrawardiyya spread Islam through hospitality, poetry, and service, not conquest.
Coexisted (sometimes uneasily) with ‘ulama connected to Deobandi, Ahl al hadith or Shia traditions.

So local Islam adapted to traditions and cultural context. The shift in authority created fragmented religious leadership which led to the slow fragmentation and then disappearance of the Ummah as a real entity.
The rise of folk practices was later criticized by reformers (Wahhabi, Salafi, modernist).


Bonus 1: The concept of the “Shadow of God on earth”.
The Ruler is seen as God’s representative, executing divine justice and maintaining worldly order.
This doesn’t appear in the Quran nor in the Ahadith. It emerged in early political Islamic administration and may have been drawn from Persian and Roman political theologies that sacralized kingship.
By the time of the Abbasids, the caliph were not prophets but chosen by God to lead.

-Seljuks were the first to introduce the fusion of the Persianate-Islamic kingship with Turkic military ethics.
They adopted the idea of their Sultan being the Shadow of God to give themselves religious/political legitimacy outside the caliphal structure. They developed famous books of law that blend Islamic law with pragmatic rules.

-Mamluks rather portrayed themselves as “defender of the faith”, enforcers of Islam and protectors of the holy cities. Their legitimacy came from their military might and enforcement of religious duties.

-Ottomans institutionalized and used the concept introduced by the Seljuks to legitimize their absolute rule under the banner of Islam. They combined this with their role of protectors of the holy cities.

-Mughals didn’t portray themselves as the Shadow of God but rather emphasized their role as divinely appointed rulers to uphold order and protect the faith. They were more pragmatic and closer to the Mamluks in this.

-Safavids used a related concept as Shadows of the hidden Imam. Since they were Ja’fari and the imam is in occultation, they portray themselves as his representatives. They’re his earthly agents. Strong messianic and spiritual overtone.

So, the ruler reflected divine justice on Earth, tasked with maintaining order (nidham) and punishing injustice (dhalm).
In exchange of state patronage and enforcement of Islam, the ‘Ulama often upheld this ideology. They issued Fatawa for taxation, war and politics, endorsing the sultan’s rule as divinely sanctioned.
Sufi orders blessed the ruler as God’s chosen agent, tying their baraka to the throne and acting as cultural brokers in the countryside to legitimate the ruler’s authority.


Bonus 2: Architecture of the Islamic world
To finish on a lighter note, please stop portraying Islamic architecture as a single entity that’s issued from the confines of the Arabian desert.
You have tons of references that show how diverse our civilization is. We don’t all wear the same clothes and we don’t all have the same architecture.
Here are some forms of diversity.

View attachment 1335008

You have done a great job. I was confident someone would outline the Madhaahib and structure of the Islamic World.

However there is one thing I suggest you retract:-

Your assessment of the Athari Methodology. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal never denied that humans have free will to make decisions, under the understanding that we are bound by Qadr (Divine Preordainment).

I suggest you revise your statement, because saying that Ahmad Ibn Hanbal denies Free Will is simply wrong.
The Athari creed takes deeply from the Qur'aan and Sunnah. Hence they believe Human's have responsibility and choice.

Allah said in Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave):

وَقُلِ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ فَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيُؤْمِن وَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيَكْفُرْ ۚ

"And say, 'The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills—let him believe; and whoever wills—let him disbelieve.'"

The Arabic word used is: شاء (To will/desire).

This affirms that humans have choice, will, desire and free will to choose.

I believe that is the flaw in your post.


Nonetheless, great job. Please fix this.
 
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You have done a great job. I was confident someone would outline the Madhaahib and structure of the Islamic World.

However there is one thing I suggest you retract:-

Your assessment of the Athari Methodology. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal never denied that humans have free will to make decisions, under the understanding that we are bound by Qadr (Divine Preordainment).

I suggest you revise your statement, because saying that Ahmad Ibn Hanbal denies Free Will is simply wrong.
The Athari creed takes deeply from the Qur'aan and Sunnah. Hence they believe Human's have responsibility and choice.

Allah said in Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave):

وَقُلِ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ فَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيُؤْمِن وَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيَكْفُرْ ۚ

"And say, 'The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills—let him believe; and whoever wills—let him disbelieve.'"

The Arabic word used is: شاء (To will/desire).

This affirms that humans have choice, will, desire and free will to choose.

I believe that is the flaw in your post.


Nonetheless, great job. Please fix this.

It's true, I worded this too strongly.
Ahmad ibn Hanbal doesn't deny free will per say as you pointed.
In Athari theology, God creates human actions because he's fully sovereign. Humans acquire their actions through their will and intention, they are morally responsible.
There's no deep philosophical rationalizing.

I tried to stay as neutral as possible in my message above. I hope I managed to convey everything without offending anyone while being clear.

Thanks for your reply and thoughtful statement.
 
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