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Tinto Talks #67 - 11th of June 2025 - Shinto and Shogunate

Hello, and welcome to another issue of happy Wednesdays Tinto Talks. Today, we will be taking a look at the mechanics for Shintō and the Shogunate.

Let’s start with the religion. In EUV, it is part of the Buddhist religious group:
Shinto Tooltip.png

Shinto Panel.png

As you can see, Shintō has two currencies: Honor and Purity. Besides being modified through events and the actions we’ll talk about in a bit, one thing to note is that fighting in battles will decrease your purity (due to the fact that blood is considered impure). Having high purity will allow the accumulation of honor, which will be able to be used for other actions, while having low purity would make people perceive you as an Oni on Earth, which may also have its benefits.
Purity.png

The different actions in the panel are ways of regaining purity, from the more simple ones of spending prestige or money for a cleansing ritual or a pilgrimage respectively, to the more expensive ones of offering a work of art or even the life of the ruler.

Besides these actions, the religion also features an International Organization, where countries can interact with the different factions present there. At start, there are three factions present: the Imperial Court, the Shogunate Court, and the Religious Sects, although more factions can appear in the future related to some other religious followers…

Each faction has some actions available, at the cost of honor, although not all the factions will be available to all countries. For example, if you are at war with the current Shōgun, you will not be able to access the actions of the shogunate court, for obvious reasons.
Shinto IO.png

Expansion Action.png

Demand Extra Payment.png

Appease Temples.png

Some of the actions of the Religious Sects will allow the country to interact with the mechanics of other Buddhist religions, but you will have to wait for future Tinto Talks for an explanation on those.

Shintō also gives access to some unique advances, like for example:
Matsuri.png

Nanto Rokushu.png

Shinbutsu.png

Kagura.png

Hachiman Worship.png

Let’s now move to talk about the Shogunate, which is present in the game as an International Organization:
Shogunate Tooltip.png

Shogunate.png

There is currently a bug with the ruler’s name not appearing in the proper order, it will be fixed.

There’s two types of special statues in the Shogunate International Organization: the Sugo and the Emperor (or Emperors in this case, more on that on Friday). The Emperor is the one that is “technically” the ruler of Japan (although the one actually in charge is the shōgun), while the Shugo are provincial governors, giving them some nice bonuses.
Shugo.png

There’s an action for the shōgun to either grant or revoke the governorship of a province, while the individual clans also have the option of basically becoming a de-facto shugo if they manage to establish enough presence in a particular province.
Shogunate Laws and Actions.png

However, these actions will only be available as long as the Shogunate itself has the appropriate law, and will be disabled once it centralizes control.
Residence Law.png

Becoming the leader of the Shogunate is something that is not granted, and instead it has to be earned. The first step to take is to obtain the backing of the imperial court, with the action Become Shōgun of the Imperial Court faction in the Sintō IO:
Become Shogun.png

This will grant a modifier directly to the ruler (not the country), and a casus belli to declare war on the current leader of the shogunate. If the war is declared and won while still having the same ruler, a special peace treaty can be enacted forcing the change of leadership.

And that is all for today. Tomorrow we have the ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video, and on Friday we will be back with a further look at flavor content for Japan (and the Japanese clans), as well as the situations of the Nanbokucho and Sengoku Jidai. See you there.

And remember, Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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no, that would be very very awkward.
The dev diary mentioned that civil wars in EU5 will continue until one side is fully annexed. While this makes sense for many contexts, I believe a more flexible civil war system is necessary to accurately represent the tumultuous period in Japanese history from the 14th to 16th centuries. Japanese civil wars were not always wars of annihilation. Therefore, I propose a unique civil war mechanic for Japan with the following features.

1. Civil Wars with Peace Treaties: A Cycle of Conflict and Reconciliation​

Japanese civil wars often spanned long periods, characterized by cycles of active fighting and temporary truces. This was because they were not just ideological struggles over legitimacy, but also pragmatic negotiations over territory and influence.
  • Historical Examples:
    • The Ashikaga Koga-Kubō vs. Horigoe-Kubō: After a long conflict, these two branches of the Ashikaga family signed a peace treaty, known as the Tohigattai, temporarily reconciling.
    • Conflicts between Daimyo Clans: The Yamanouchi-Uesugi and Ōgigayatsu-Uesugi clans, who fought each other during the Chōkyō War, later formed an alliance to face the common threat of the Hōjō clan. The two branches of the Hatakeyama clan also repeated a pattern of conflict and peace.
  • Proposed Implementation:
    For civil wars within the Japanese culture group, there should be special peace options in addition to the standard total war. For example, belligerents could negotiate a peace based on conditions like "Cede Provinces," "Acknowledge Title," or "Pay Reparations," allowing both sides to coexist after the war. This would create a historically authentic sense of tension, where a conflict could smolder for decades before reigniting.

2. "Intra-Clan Division": A Strategy for Survival​

The concept of the "Ie" (house/clan) in Japan was unique, and the survival of the dynasty was paramount. During civil wars, it was a common strategy for a clan to split, with different members joining opposing sides to ensure the family's survival regardless of the outcome.
  • Historical Examples:
    • Nanboku-chō Period: Many prominent clans, such as the Takeda and the Yūki, had branches fighting on both the Northern and Southern Courts.
    • Battle of Sekigahara: The most famous example is the Sanada clan splitting between Masayuki and Yukimura (Western Army) and Nobuyuki (Eastern Army). After the war, the victorious Nobuyuki was able to secure the clan's domain and legacy.
  • Proposed Implementation:
    When a civil war erupts, an event could trigger for certain clans, causing a cadet branch of the player's dynasty to break away and join the enemy side.
    After the war concludes, the victorious side could have a special decision to peacefully inherit the lands and claims of the defeated cadet branch. This would represent the high-risk, high-reward strategy of ensuring the clan's survival and would create a uniquely Japanese gameplay experience.
These mechanics would make Japan an exception to the "war to the death" civil war model, offering a deeper and more historically compelling experience. The wars in Japan during this era were not simple struggles of annihilation, but complex power games of negotiation, betrayal, and cold, calculated strategies for dynastic survival.
 
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Couldn't you just deduce an appropriate amount of money and move soldier pops to the clan when demanding an extra payment?
then that action must have a much higher cost and some time limit, otherwise the shogun will be squeezed dry by ~140 clans asking for money/manpower everytime they gain 10 honor. In fact, I think just around 10 clans asking for extra payment within a month could bankrupt the shogun (-400 gold, -2700 manpower), make him vulnerable to Sengoku..
 
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In a surprise to basically no one, religion in Japan is once again depicted through a heavy lens of the Japanese Empire and modern tropes. Rule of Cool still takes precedence. But, at least Buddhism is presented as slightly less marginal this time around...

("Free Land" Buddhism of EU4 was funny though; was "Pure Land" too xenophobic sounding or something?)
free range organic Buddhism
 
Some questions about Shinto interaction:
1. If both Imperial clans got wiped out, can you still use Imperial faction's action? Similarly, if the Imperial successfully restores power and Shogunate is no more, can you still use Shogunate faction's action?
2. Can Imperial/Shogun use all of their faction's action? Like, can Imperial choose to become Shogun, or Shogun demand extra payment .. from himself?
3. Once Sengoku happen and clans became independent daimyo, can they still ask the shogun for payment? Is that counted as being in conflict with the shogunate and block you from using Shogunate's action?
 
now that I have think about it, I feel like Shinto's mechanic is not of a proper religion, but more like an extension of the Shogunate's mechanic, with many benefits tied to being in the shogunate itself, or stop making sense outside it.

For example, if Korea (or an eventual custom nation) adopts Shinto as state religion, can they demand payment from the Japanese shogunate? Can they ask the Imperial to grant the foreigner claim on Japanese soil? Can they become Shogun while still being the king of Korea? It makes no sense once you think outside of the Japan box - heck, even outside of the shogunate Japan box, because once the shogun is gone for good, you will either demand a ghost for some ghostly coin and manpower, or have 40% of Shinto content unavailable forever.

I think Shinto need a serious rework, just to make it a proper, independent religion that can applied outside of the shogunate. Purity should have other uses than just generate honor, and the honor system should be moved to the shogunate IO instead. Even if it mean Shinto will become too similar to Eastern Buddhism or Sanjiao, it would still be an actual, independent, applicable religion by its own right that don't need to latch on Shogunate to make sense.
 
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now that I have think about it, I feel like Shinto's mechanic is not of a proper religion, but more like an extension of the Shogunate's mechanic, with many benefits tied to being in the shogunate itself, or stop making sense outside it.

For example, if Korea (or an eventual custom nation) adopts Shinto as state religion, can they demand payment from the Japanese shogunate? Can they ask the Imperial to grant the foreigner claim on Japanese soil? Can they become Shogun while still being the king of Korea? It makes no sense once you think outside of the Japan box - heck, even outside of the shogunate Japan box, because once the shogun is gone for good, you will either demand a ghost for some ghostly coin and manpower, or have 40% of Shinto content unavailable forever.

I think Shinto need a serious rework, just to make it a proper, independent religion that can applied outside of the shogunate. Purity should have other uses than just generate honor, and the honor system should be moved to the shogunate IO instead. Even if it mean Shinto will become too similar to Eastern Buddhism or Sanjiao, it would still be an actual, independent, applicable religion by its own right that don't need to latch on Shogunate to make sense.
Since Shinto is supposed to represent Shinto-Buddhist syncretism it's very strange they lack any access to the Karma mechanic, especially so considering that they can acquire righteousness from Confucianism. If honor was removed you could pretty easily rework Shinto to function similar to how Sanjiao works with it's three different religious currencies (Daoism, Confucianism, Buddhism vs Shinto, Buddhism, Confucianism).