Tinto Talks #72 - 16th of July 2025

[Polesie Admiral]

Were there any Jewis

Semien if we're generous, since it's a legendary mostly

 

[Sebroar]

Do the different folk religions give different bonuses, or it's the same for all, but the Gods are named different? Based on comparing Inti and Isese, it's the latter, without the Yanantin, which is unique to the Incans.

Well, only a few modifiers are the same, so it's fine to me.

 

[Pavía]

I really don't get this fixation with adding religious currencies. It might have been unique, interesting gameplay if it wasn't something every religion seemed to have their flavour of, with very minor impact. It feels like the current Paradox design philosophy for religions is:

1. Religion name?
2. What can we use for it's currency mechanic? (Piety, Karma, Doom, Yanantin, Mysticism/Spiritualism, etc)

I don't feel like these currencies add anything really, and they're all so abstract that I don't think it's unfair to call them mana (Wait for the Polynesian faiths when they actually use the word mana...). Add on the fact that most of them are based on fundamental misunderstandings of the concept they're named after and I suspect they're going to be deeply unsatisfying to everyone.

I like the pantheons, and I'm excited to see the work that went into the name lists for them. That said, I was hoping for a more in-depth set of mechanics, such as including mummification of rulers, the Capacocha sacrifices, huacas, and of course the oracles of Pachacamac and Apurimac. I guess there's nothing here's that's awful, other than another religious currency, but there's not that much that's exciting here, either. I guess this will have to be one of those regions that doesn't get that much unique religious content until post-release, which is fine - but my reception of this would have been better without the currency.

I was wondering if there's anything to represent close-family marriages, but I suppose there needs to be some way to represent that more on a dynasty level than a religious one so that it can be used in the rulers of a lot of different cultures. Hopefully that's covered on Friday!

It is fair to have that opinion, and we've been presenting these religion-related TTs in the last couple of months to get community, and try to improve them as much as possible, based on this feedback. That said, I think the mana-currency debate is not entirely productive; we're already moving away in EU5 from the most important mana-based mechanic in EU4 (monarch points), and tying a lot of the systems and mechanics into a more simulationist approach. However, we will still need to work with currencies, such as Prestige, Stability, etc., so, in the case of religions, please consider them as tools, not as means.

That being said, I'll repeat again that we'll try to improve the mechanics that we've shown as much as possible based on the community feedback, because that's the main point of the Tinto Talks series, and presenting different EU5 content for 2 or 3 (and for some time, 4) days a week.

 

[denisevlogiev]

So I'm guessing there aren't any unique mechanics for most folk religions at start and you'll add some with DLCs?

 

[FleetingRain]

They're similar as of now, as we have 18 different Folk Religions religious groups, as we wanted to mark them as separate, based on common beliefs. But if you think that 'Andean' Folk religions need this differentiation from 'Brazilian' Folk religions, it's something we can look towards polishing, because it shouldn't take much time (just some thought).

Oh you can be dead sure people will find enough gods/spirits/entities to differentiate all the groups and religions, just give them time.

 

[Pavía]

Does the "maximal amount of spouses" modifier" include the "basic one" consort that everybody gets or is just additional consorts? Becauss if it's the former then it should be detracted or just remove the + from it

Also Islam shoul have those modifier as well

Basic one; so, in the case of Inti, it's 4 female consorts, and 1 male consort, in total.

Other religions as Islam, have similar modifiers, yes, although they're tied to policies in the 'Marriage Law'; this is a bug, so we're just going to create a policy for 'Inti Marriage', that will appear instead of the direct modifier.

 

[ArVass]

Very large sections of the world are covered by Folk Religions, the new denomination of what formerly in EU4 were Animist, Pagan, or Totemist religions, and that we’ve been able to set up thanks to your feedback in the Tinto Maps series:

I believe Obian Shamanism sounds weird, and instead Ugric Shamanism would be more in line with how people refer to Ugric people.

I see that Polynesian people still all have their own tiny religions; I somewhat believe that this is one of the cases where a single, more refined Polynesian religion with a Kapu/Tapu system and a God list localised based on dialect (in the Tonalist TT it was explained that the same god can have different names in different cultures, iirc), along with some other peculiarities of this religious sphere, would be more optimal than "each culture a religion".

 

[ArVass]

We have 254 different Folk Religions, which mostly have an impact on the pop-related systems and mechanics. We've prioritized this over the pure flavour of having so many different pantheons, etc., because we think it's more relevant for gameplay purposes.

I believe they didn't ask about the pantheons, but whether if all these religions will keep on using the same placeholder religion icon.

 

[old rabbit]

I really don't get this fixation with adding religious currencies. It might have been unique, interesting gameplay if it wasn't something every religion seemed to have their flavour of, with very minor impact. It feels like the current Paradox design philosophy for religions is:

1. Religion name?
2. What can we use for it's currency mechanic? (Piety, Karma, Doom, Yanantin, Mysticism/Spiritualism, etc)

I don't feel like these currencies add anything really, and they're all so abstract that I don't think it's unfair to call them mana (Wait for the Polynesian faiths when they actually use the word mana...). Add on the fact that most of them are based on fundamental misunderstandings of the concept they're named after and I suspect they're going to be deeply unsatisfying to everyone.

I was hoping for a more in-depth set of mechanics, such as including mummification of rulers, the Capacocha sacrifices, and of course the oracles of Pachacamac and Apurimac. I guess the region can be fleshed out later. Nothing here stands out as being awful, (other than more religious currency) but nothing about it really seems that exciting, either. I guess it's a good base for future expansion - though I think I'd have reacted more positively if the currency were just left out of this and there were one less mechanic, because it's not a fun looking one at all.

I was wondering if there's anything to represent close-family marriages, but I suppose there needs to be some way to represent that more on a dynasty level than a religious one so that it can be used in the rulers of a lot of different cultures.

Second this. EU5 religion is basically a currency/scale with modifiers, (some allow you to pick more modifiers from a pool) and some actions solely to increase/balance it. These actions defeat the points of the currency, since you don't really have to play along with its requirement to gain currency - just need a lot of money and prestige and then spam these correction actions. Imagine causing untold tragedy with your world conquest, but can still retain perfect karma just because you can dump a sht ton of money on all the orphanages..

My suggestions is leaning less on the currency/scale unless it was a core concept of the religion itself (like Taoist), but more on the unique actions/decisions available for that religion. These actions/decisions will no longer be a simple money/prestige for points, but a complex task with varied requirements that grant a much hefty reward at the end/if the conditions are still met.

Like if you fight too much and your karma is rock bottom, then you will have a choice of atonement by making a vow to stop fighting (thereby disabling offensive war for that ruler), to be benevolent (by keeping public order and satisfaction high, which will be quite an ordeal with all the recently conquested territories); and the vows need to be at least 10 yrs or longer to be counted, so you cant just make the vow on your deathbed. Conversely, the longer you remain at peace (outside defensive war), the higher the benefit you will gain as a Buddhist - with the ultimate prize is to become a Buddha that gives permanent modifiers for your dynasty for each ruler that passes the trial.
You want to please Huitzilopochtli, then you have to fight several flower wars within a set window of time until you capture enough enemies. You want to make a grant rite for the Heaven as a Chinese emperor, then you need to gather exotic goods, maintain high stability/order, and then follow a lengthy event chain as the preparation. You want to make your previous ruler an folk ancestral deity, then that guy needs to achieve some landmark during his time, and you have to make preparations to properly honor him (and rewrite the legend) - and in return, you basically create your own customs god, with modifier depend on what he has achieved in life.

A Buddhist game will focus on playing tall, trying to stack as many enlightened rulers as you can; a Tonal game will require you to keep some enemies around at all times, so you can fight multiple flower wars at the same time to keep up with the sacrifice demand; and a folk religion game is a make-your-own-legend style, with each ruler trying to go for a different goals so you can assemble the optimal pathenon.

In short, religion should really impact how you play the game (and the actions should be mini-goals); and not as something you set up once, then occasionally pay the cost in money/prestige to keep it that way till the end. The player can still go again the flow as their own wishes, but they will be painted as an antichrist as a consequence - and of course, you can always convert to another religion if your original is not at all your play style..

 

[FleetingRain]

It is fair to have that opinion, and we've been presenting these religion-related TTs in the last couple of months to get community, and try to improve them as much as possible, based on this feedback. That said, I think the mana-currency debate is not entirely productive; we're already moving away in EU5 from the most important mana-based mechanic in EU4 (monarch points), and tying a lot of the systems and mechanics into a more simulationist approach. However, we will still need to work with currencies, such as Prestige, Stability, etc., so, in the case of religions, please consider them as tools, not as means.

That being said, I'll repeat again that we'll try to improve the mechanics that we've shown as much as possible based on the community feedback, because that's the main point of the Tinto Talks series, and presenting different EU5 content for 2 or 3 (and for some time, 4) days a week.

My biggest issue is that it feels all over the place sometimes. Karma and Piety are sliders but you can pay them as resources, then Catholicism and a couple other disparate religions have Religious Influence, then you see Shinto with *two* resources, one of them being a slider and the other giving a modifier for the first resource, then Buddhism has Karma and Harmony and Righteousness and dawg whats going ON

I am not sure how to approach all of those mechanics yet (I made a post about Karma and am planning on one for Piety/Islam, but that's it), but I feel religion is something you guys will touch on relatively early in the future roadmap for the game.

Also, while I'm here: is it possible to have dynamic localisation for Religious Influence? So for Catholics it could be "Papal Influence", while for Orthodox it would be "Patriarch Authority" etc. This would make it feel a bit less abstract.

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

"Andean Folk Religions", or perhaps preferably "Andean Religions", work much, much better than "Peruvian Folk Religions".

Even though the word "Perú", and hence "Peruvian" might have come from an indigenous language, it only became the general term for the region during colonial times. Moreover, "Perú" is believed to be the Spanish version of the word "Birú", which came from an indigenous native language of Panamá (probably, Cueva, Guna or Emberá), so it has nothing to do with pre-colonial Perú. Later on, "Perú" was used in early colonial times (16th and 17th centuries) to refer to all of Spanish colonial South America, not just modern-day Perú (since the Viceroyalty of Perú basically covered all of Spanish South America until the viceroyalties of New Granada and Río de la Plata were created in the 18th century and Perú was reduced, more or less, to its modern borders).

"Andean Religions" could cover the native indigenous religions of modern-day Perú, while "Chibchan Religions" could be used for the northern Andean nations such as the various Muisca chiefdoms, the Tairona, Ette Ennaka, etc. An additional "Barbacoan Religions" groups could cover the Andean nations of contemporary Ecuador before the Inca conquest and the southern Andes region of Colombia (for nations such as the Misak, Coconucan, Kitu, Tumaco, Pubén, etc.)

 

[matfer13]

Beside some exeptions like Tengri(which was practiced by bith Turks and Mongols) shouldn't most folk faiths be made into ethno-religions in game? In that way you'll have to convert them before assimilation and avoid situations like where you are colonizing and assimilating Mesoamerica as Spain and everybody becomes Castiallian while still worshiping the Nahua Gods, specially considering that having people of your primary culture seems to be more important than having them of your religion(for levies, control...)

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

I think you're mixing 'Aspects' (which they have) with 'Actions' (which they don't). But you've given me the idea that we may port some of the actions to be available to Folk Religions (because celebrating religious festivals is a very widespread activity).

You mentioned Religious Aspects in the description of Folk Religions (... we are focusing on the 'Gods' and 'Religious Aspects'...), but you showed a screenshot where there are 0 Religious Aspects and a screenshot with their Gods.
It looked like you forgot to add a screenshot with their Religious aspects for folk religions :

But you showed the Religious aspects for Inti, so I was curious which Religious aspects do the other Folk Religions have.
Because those look like they are unique to Inti:

-
UPDATE. Or actually, Religious Aspect only means Choosing a God?

 

[LordThanatos]

It is fair to have that opinion, and we've been presenting these religion-related TTs in the last couple of months to get community, and try to improve them as much as possible, based on this feedback. That said, I think the mana-currency debate is not entirely productive; we're already moving away in EU5 from the most important mana-based mechanic in EU4 (monarch points), and tying a lot of the systems and mechanics into a more simulationist approach. However, we will still need to work with currencies, such as Prestige, Stability, etc., so, in the case of religions, please consider them as tools, not as means.

That being said, I'll repeat again that we'll try to improve the mechanics that we've shown as much as possible based on the community feedback, because that's the main point of the Tinto Talks series, and presenting different EU5 content for 2 or 3 (and for some time, 4) days a week.

Considering them as tools, the religious currencies are lacking in my opinion. My argument is not just that these are non-simulationist. I have no problem with some abstraction - I think prestige is an okay currency and I think stability is an even better currency. They might not be tangible like ducats, but they're real values and more importantly interesting values. Trying to keep a country stable is interesting - trying to increase its prestige on the world stage is interesting. There might be better ways to do both, but you know what you're looking at when you see 'Stability -3', you can imagine the revolt fomenting. My issue is that this looks boring.

Adding a god and getting a modifier, then waiting a few months and adding another god to negate that modifier is not interesting. That opinion is completely subjective, sure, none of these religious currencies seem interesting at all to me. I actually think Yanantin is a unique case where it's at least somewhat based in real belief and could be made a little more interesting if you tied more to it. Have male rulers and male consorts add to the monthly ticker while female rulers and female consorts reduce it. Have other mechanics encouraging pairing things and make it take a little more to manage. Even then, though, the results of having your realm unbalanced is not all that interesting because you're tying far too much to a concept that's ultimately about encouraging marriage as spiritually desirable and reciprocity as virtuous. Making it a central mechanic and tying it to statecraft to this extent strains suspension of disbelief.

What makes the Yanantin mechanic far less interesting still is that it fails to stand out because there are lackluster currency mechanics for almost every other religion too (Hinduism remains your best made religion). If this stood alone I'd say 'huh, it's not that interesting to interact with, but it's flavour' instead it feels painfully similar to Religious Influence, Karma (Which is misrepresented), Mysticism/Spiritualism (Which is misrepresented), and Doom (Which is misrepresented). Take all the others away, and this is an alright tertiary flavour mechanic, though not a great primary mechanic for a religion, which is what it is at the moment. Religious currency is just a tool, yes, and I think it could be used amazingly in some cases where it feels flavourful - I'm particularly interested in what could be done for similar mechanics in Daoism.

The issue isn't that the team is using the tools to try and make the game interesting, it's that the tools are being overused and every religion looks like a nail for this hammer you have. Other than this one, every religious currency has felt shoehorned in and of them, only Religious influence was not a total misrepresentation, and that's only because it's the most upfront as just being a generic religious currency without any flavour. Just having them in the game has dragged down how interesting this currency is.

Sure, have this mechanic about pairing gods with a minor modifier for flavour, but have other, more interesting mechanics. You could have a far more interesting central mechanic by focusing on the huaca, the oracles, sacred architecture, or the mummification rituals for rulers. Managing the estates of the dead, holding them ceremonies and so on is far more flavourful and fascinating than matching modifiers in a pantheon. I can't imagine excitedly telling a friend that my country collapsed because I left my gods unpaired too long. I can imagine telling them my country's troubles when after countless generations of Sampa Inca, maintaining the estates of the mummies had bankrupted my nation, and dissolving them for funds hand caused a riot to overthrow the Sampa Inca.

(And if those mechanics appear on Friday, I'll be ecstatic, but I'd also be confused why they're not tied to the religious mechanics when they're religious ceremonies.)

 

[honkajoki]

Will the names of mechanics, gods, etc of different folk religions, or some of them, be covered at some point? Or left for the player to find out in the game?

Oh God, I've been in this forum for 20 years, and I still hate it with passion.

There's hundreds or thousands of gods in this thread, you should be more specific.

 

[Xefjord]

Maybe this has already been answered somewhere else, but is Germanic/Norse Paganism still in the game anywhere? Is there any chance for a revival of that folk religion?

 

[matfer13]

Maybe this has already been answered somewhere else, but is Germanic/Norse Paganism still in the game anywhere? Is there any chance for a revival of that folk religion?

Zoom in Scandinavia on that religious map

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

Awesome "folk" religion world map! However, I, as usual, have some concerns regarding the northern South America region.

1. I really hope that the purple coloured religion we see in the Guajira peninsula (which presumably represent the religion of the Arawakan-speaking Wayuu peoples) is not the same purple coloured religion we see in the area corresponding to present day Tolima and Huila (were Cariban-speaking Pijao and Panche peoples lived with completely different sets of beliefs and linguistic background to the Wayuu in the Guajira peninsula).

2. I see a light blue coloured religion in modern-day Cundinamarca (which I presume would represent Muisca religion), but I also see that same colour in the Llanos plains of Meta on the map, were Cariban and Arawakan speaking peoples lived and who were the main "rivals" or "enemies" of the Muisca. Them sharing the same religion as their lifelong Muisca enemies is a bit weird.

3. I am glad to see an "all-encompassing" light brown coloured religion along the lower Magdalena River and in Panamá as well, it seems to appropriately represent the other Chibchan religions besides the more well-known Muisca and Tairona.

Great work overall and I hope we get to see the Tinto Maps Feedback for South America soon.

 

[Davincie]

What is madurity?

 

[Nconstruct]

Basic one; so, in the case of Inti, it's 4 female consorts, and 1 male consort, in total.

Other religions as Islam, have similar modifiers, yes, although they're tied to policies in the 'Marriage Law'; this is a bug, so we're just going to create a policy for 'Inti Marriage', that will appear instead of the direct modifier.

I would hope you make max. number of consorts absolut so without any "+" because the number is already clear, negative numbers aren't possible