Tinto Talks #73 - 23th of July 2025 - Middle Kingdom

[IluminatiX]

wow ! It's interesting, I can't wait to see the Yuan Break vase, to be able to pick up the pieces and called it a ming vase

 

[flatoranger]

NICE!

 

[HansFlammenwerfer]

Countries can join the Middle Kingdom freely as long as they are not a subject, and either have their capital in Asia or have the appropriate cultural or religious groups.

Is all I need a capital in Asia? In theory, could I start as the Jalayrids, for example, and join the Middle Kingdom?

 

[Birchinjaro]

Looks good, but it is kind of funny that throwing a representitive of China outside the window only gets you -10 opinion

 

[Roger Corominas]

Is all I need a capital in Asia? In theory, could I start as the Jalayrids, for example, and join the Middle Kingdom?

You still need to be in diplomatic range of the current emperor, so the Jalayrids are too far away for that at the start.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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As it was very much integral to the Yuan, would there be a possibility for the Mongol Empire as a starting International Organization? The Yuan emperor was still legally considered the Khagan, above the other Khans, in correspondence and ceremony.

It is often believed that the Mongol Empire had long fractured by this point, but that is not exactly the truth. Each of the splinter-Khanates held economic interests within eachothers; fiefdoms, appanages, etc. This was a vital diplomatic tool to uphold the remaining cohesion between the khanates.

The largest appanages were in China, in the Central Region to be specific. In 1339, the Golden Horde began receiving significant silver revenues from their hereditary lands in China, as their relationship with the Khagan healed. While this International Organization would not be politically unified in any great deal, it would be a way to keep the Khanates' interests tied to eachothers, as they historically were.

I will quote myself from the old China thread:

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The Wuhusi-system & The Silver Grant-system

It might be too early to propose content & mechanics, but this also provides some context for my map feedback (here)

I would suggest implementing both the wuhusi system and the Silver Grant systems (or both into one mechanic) to strengthen ties between the extended Borjigin dynasty, and to add challenge to balancing the Mongol estate in Yuan. These systems would act as a form of "subsidy" for the surviving Mongol successor states, while also providing an additional source of revenue for the Mongol noble class within Yuan. This would give the Mongol nobility significant power, making them a troublesome estate to deal with. It would also provide the Mongol successors outside of China a vested interest in maintaining good relations with Yuan, and its continued survival...

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The wuhusi 五戶絲, or "five-household silk," system was a refined version of the earlier revenue-sharing appanage system among the Borjigin princely families and lesser Noyan families. Under this system, the conquered lands in China were regarded as joint property among the Borjigins and Noyans, with revenues from allocated territories, known as Ayimaqs (tribes), distributed among these families. These territories included Khanbaliq, Shanxi, Hebei, Shandong, parts of Inner Mongolia, and northern Henan, beyond the Yellow River.

When the Toluids achieved dominance over both the Yuan dynasty and the Ilkhanate, it left the Jochid lineage of the Golden Horde and the Chagatayid lineage of Central Asia with diminished or, in some cases, halted revenue streams from their Chinese fiefs. However, the Jochids did begin receiving their due in 1339. In the Yuan's Central Region, minor descendants of these princely houses—Jochids, Ögedeids, Chagatayids, Qasarids, and branches of the Toluids—remained as vassals to the Great Khans. Cut off from their distant relatives, they served as military officers for the Yuan. Together with other Mongol nobles (Noyans) and their tümens of warriors, they formed the Mongol military elite in the region.

The administration of this system was overseen by non-Han officials, known as Darughachi, who were responsible for collecting revenues from these lands. These revenues were then distributed to the rightful owners, provided those owners were not hostile to the Yuan at the time. The selection of these officials was often left to the owners of the fiefdoms, although nominal approval was required from the Great Khan. These officials often had dual loyalties—both to their princely house and to the Great Khan—but the princes typically appointed the most loyal and trusted individuals to oversee their Chinese fiefs.

This practice of revenue sharing was not confined to China; it extended to the Ilkhanate and, in a more limited capacity, to the Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate. For instance, in 1308, the Yuan Toluids reformed the administration of their share of revenues from Transoxiana. Similarly, Özbeg Khan of the Golden Horde, after fostering friendly relations with the Yuan in 1326, successfully requested and began receiving his share of Jochid revenues from China in 1339. This arrangement continued under his successor, Jani Beg, and likely persisted until the fall of the Yuan dynasty.

Alongside the wuhusi system, the Silver Grant system played an important role in maintaining the loyalty of the domestic princely families. The Silver Grant was an annual allocation of silver and textiles given during the Yuan dynasty, primarily to male members of the "Golden Family"—relatives of Genghis Khan and their descendants. Unlike territorial fiefs, which were tied to specific lands, the Silver Grant was directly linked to the personal relationship between the grantee and the emperor. The size of the grant was determined by the recipient's dynastic standing within the Golden Family, as well as the emperor’s capacity and willingness to distribute the resources. Members would have to attend the annual meeting to receive their grant.

Although both systems diminished over time, they remained an effective and a necessary tool for Yuan emperors to secure the loyalties of domestic princely families. By using both the wuhusi and Silver Grant systems, the Yuan emperors could maintain influence over their Mongol nobility, while also encouraging a semblance of cohesion among the network of Mongol successor states.

Map of the princely and noyad fiefs in the Central Region:

View attachment 1203656

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"Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire" (2004):

View attachment 1203657View attachment 1203658View attachment 1203660View attachment 1203661

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“Nomads in the Sedentary World” (2001):

View attachment 1203662View attachment 1203663View attachment 1203664

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“The Mongol Empire: Fragmentation, Unity, And Continuity” (2021):

View attachment 1203666View attachment 1203667View attachment 1203668
View attachment 1203669View attachment 1203670

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[Aquila SPQR]

 

[titan.bevel]

The law tooltips, again and again... I absolutely love that we get all these laws and they have very interesting effects, but I still find them too difficult to read. I'd say the part not applicable to your situation should probably be grayed out / put behind an opacity 50% filter (to clarify it's NOT currently applicable). And probably use a different wording that would NOT use your tag name, or use it with an "IF". Maybe something like "If Yuan is no longer" i.e

Just throwing out ideas, but I assume laws will be a big part of the game, and knowing all of their effects will be quite important.

 

[GabriKimba]

Does the emperor have CB against countries holding IO lands?

 

[Davincie]

Shouldn't the pop join rebels treshold be +5% if its positive? Else it seems to me like they would become rebels sooner which is hardly positive.

 

[bokorthedust]

Can you have multiple strengthened ministries active at the same time, or do you have to wait for a cooldown? Are they essentially what the EoC edicts were in EU4?

 

[Birchinjaro]

I will say that being Unsinicized seems like the objectivelly worse option, the 20% trade capacity nerf is too big in contrast to the bonuses it gives

 

[Roger Corominas]

Does the emperor have CB against countries holding IO lands?

Yes

 

[bokorthedust]

Are Celestial Governors limited in number?

 

[GabriKimba]

What does the emperor gain from celestial governors?

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

That's a smile of someone who knows what's up.

 

[matfer13]

Here to see how long it takes to say that China is underepresented

 

[Azgabeth]

Wait so how does this IO work when china splits into multiple kingdoms?

 

[matfer13]

Are members of the IO considered tributary subjects of the Emperor's tag? Otherwise those loyalty modifiers in the "enstablished provincial governorship" policy don't seem so good