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Tinto Talks #73 - 23th of July 2025 - Middle Kingdom

Hello and welcome to another happy edition of our Wednesday Tinto Talks. This week we will continue our eastern focus with a look at the core mechanics related to China: The Middle Kingdom and a disaster related to it, the Influence of China.

The Middle Kingdom is represented in game with an International Organization, with the Celestial Emperor (or Huángdì) as its leader.
Middle Kingdom tooltip.png

Middle Kingdom Panel.png

A usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.
The IO itself has territory assigned to it, what it considers to be its core territory. In the mapmode, that’s represented by solid colors, when owned by a country inside the IO and purple stripes when not currently owned by a member of the IO.
Middle Kingdom Map.png

Territory outside the IO but owned by a member of it is colored in stripes of different colors: yellow for the Celestial Emperor, green for the regular members, and bright green for the Celestial Governors - these colors are WIP, and a matter of review, not final.

Speaking about that, what is a Celestial Governor? They are members of the Middle Kingdom to which the emperor has granted special privileges, giving them some nice bonuses:
Celestial Governor.png

Countries can join the Middle Kingdom freely as long as they are not a subject, and either have their capital in Asia or have the appropriate cultural or religious groups. Subjects of the Celestial Emperor, however, will automatically join it.

Once a country is inside the Middle Kingdom, they will still be allowed to pursue their own diplomacy and wage their own wars (as long as they are not a subject type that forbids that), but they will also benefit from the protection of the Emperor, who may come to their assistance if they are attacked by an external threat (although that is not a guarantee). Also, they will be participating in the Tribute System.
Tribute System.png

Historically, the tribute system of China was manifested through tribute missions between the various countries and the current ruling dynasty, conducted at various frequencies. Countries would offer gifts to the Emperor for the Son of Heaven to recognize their rule, and they would get gifts of greater value in return.

In the game, this back and forth is simplified and abstracted to a payment that the Emperor has to perform, and the resulting money is divided among all members, according to their economic power. The emperor gets a slider in their economic panel to determine exactly how much tribute they are willing to pay, at the risk of losing Celestial Authority if the resulting tribute is too low.
Tribute Slider.png

Celestial Authority does not have any passive effect, but there is much content tied to it, with some risks involved if let to fall too low. Additionally, many actions require the use of Celestial Authority:
Laws and Actions.png

First off, let’s start talking about the Laws, as they define how the Middle Kingdom operates and also affect which actions will be available:
Administrative laws.png

Socieconomic Laws.png

Provincial governorship.png

Keju law.png

Outwards view.png

Codified Tribute.png

For example, ‘Conducting a Kējǔ Examination’ will only be possible as long as the ‘Direct Appointment’ policy is not active, while the appointment of new Celestial Governors can only be made if the ‘Codified Cèfēng Tǐzhì’ policy is active.

Let’s now look at the actions in more detail. For starters, as it was already mentioned, Conducting a Kējǔ Examination will allow the recruitment of a new capable character, with some historical characters being able to appear from it.
Exam event.png

‘Strengthen Ministry’ will allow the country to strengthen one of the 6 traditional ministries in Chinese administration, with varying effects. Some ministries will also be available to affect the outcomes of other actions.
Ministry of Personel.png

Ministry of Personel Modifier.png

Ministry of justice.png

Ministry of justice modifier.png

Lastly, the Proclaim Decree action will allow the emperor to choose a decree to enable for some temporary benefits, but it will also cost some Celestial Authority. The effects of the decrees last only for a short while, but are scaled by the amount of countries in the Middle Kingdom, the Emperor’s own Cabinet Efficiency, and other factors such as certain Ministries having been expanded.
Decrees.png

Additionally, the more decrees proclaimed, the less Celestial Authority that the Middle Kingdom will gain each month, representing the increasing complication of bureaucracy. However, the emperor can choose to ‘Reshape the Bureaucracy’, eliminating the accumulated penalty on Celestial Authority gain due to decrees.
Reshape Bureaucracy.png

Another thing you may have noticed in the Middle Kingdom panel is something called Eunuch Power. At some point, China will have the option to empower the eunuchs. Doing so will open the gates to some events and effects related to them, but that will be for you to discover, as this Tinto Talks is already getting long enough, and I still have another topic to discuss - a new, unique Societal Value.

Let’s now move to take a look at China from the outside and see what happens when a foreign country interacts with it. If a country not belonging to the Chinese culture group enters the orbit of China, it will unlock the Sinicized vs Unsinicized societal value:
Sinicized tooltip.png

Sinicized tooltip 2.png

Like other societal values, a country has many tools with which to nudge it towards one extreme or the other. However, what matters to us today is what happens when they reach high levels of Sinicization. Any free country that goes beyond 90 towards Sinicization and is less powerful than China may fall under the ‘Influence of China’ disaster
Sinicization disaster tooltip.png

Sinicization disaster staring event.png

There will be many possible events firing during it, in which the country will navigate between continuing to be influenced by Chinese culture, or establishing its own cultural independence.
Sinicization event7.png

Sinicization event 7 option.png

Sinicization event 8.png

Sinicization event 8 option.png

To get out of the disaster, the country has various options. For once, they will get out of it if they are no longer sinicized, there is not a China to which to compare them to, or they are already stronger than it. Alternatively, they can resolve the disaster via taking enough decisions towards the same direction in the events firing during it. When the disaster ends, a final event will fire, with options and results dependent on which exactly has been the way to exit the disaster.
Sinicization event final.png

You’ll have to play through the disaster yourselves to see all the options though…

And that is all for today. On Friday we will continue with a Tinto Flavour about China, and in next Wednesday’s Tinto Talks, we’ll have the final puzzle piece for the Chinese content - the Red Turbans Rebellion situation, and the Crisis of the Chinese Dynasty disaster. We hope to see you on both!

And remember: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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Does the emperor of china actually benifit in any way from being emporor? I might be misjudging a bit but it looks like a huge finacial drain for basically noting. It would be unfortunate if the first goal for a chineese emporor player was to stop being the chineese emporor.
 
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Wonderful and mostly what I hoped for, but I have a couple of questions.

1) Can any nation claim the mandate of heaven? For example, is it possible to cheese Austria into becoming the faction leader of the middle kingdom if certain other requirements are met? Or is it limited to Chinese and plausible tags, like the nomads or koreans?

2) I might have overseen it, but if your nation is sinicized, I suppose you will have no penalties with chinese culture pops?

3) Can you turn tributaries into vassals?
 
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Love the content presented, what does it mean to "enter the orbit of china" ? Is it any diplomatic relationship ? Or only ones that are tributaries in kind ? (thinking especially of the explorers countries seeing China for the first time) .

What are the "risk associated with having celestial authority become too low" ? Is it part of the disasters that will be represented next week ?

Can the IO gain lands ? Maybe through actions or laws, but I think it'd be cool that you have a way to expand the IO territory / claim new lands to add to it.
1. Basically it means joining the Middle Kingdom
2. Yes, we'll talk about that next week.
3. No, it can't gain nor lose land, as its land
 
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Please use the correct Han people's clothing for Sinicized illustrations, not Manchu-Qing clothing
Right. Its so tiring to see traditional Hanfu being forgotten most of the time in Western representation of Chinese in that time period. Its not like the Han were super eager to be forced to abadon their traditional clothing and hairstyles.
 
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I think the emperor should get a slight bonus / change to the sinicized societal value. It seems strange that you loose cultural tradition for being too sinicized when you ARE the emperor of the IO. I know you already gain +50 culture capacity, but I still find strange to loose cultural tradition for being too sinicized when you are the emperor of china
 
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Can the Huangdi mediate or intervene in a war between two IO members, much like the emperors of the Ming dynasty did when conflicts arose between Vietnam and Champa?

Speaking of Vietnam, can the Huangdi issue an imperial edict demanding the restoration of a deposed royal house of an IO member, and, upon refusal, use this as a legitimate reason to wage war? Of course, once victory is achieved, whether the previous royal house is restored or the territory is directly annexed would depend entirely on the sacred judgement of the Son of Heaven.
 
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Untitled184_20250723140541.jpg


These areas should also be part of the IO in 1337.

Additionally, Pinya and 'Laos' (Muang Sua) were recorded as having native official (tusi) posts in 1338 and 1339, so they could be included by some interpretations as the Chinese records for this region are often scarce and delayed by a couple years.

Screenshot_20250723-140732.png
Baiyi = Tai
Screenshot_20250723-140904.png
Screenshot_20250723-141040.png
Christian Daniels (2018) The Mongol-Yuan in Yunnan
 
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Cool dev diary, but the one thing that still continues to confuse me is the fact that China is the one giving money to its tributaries. It feels weird and counter-intuitive? Is that really how it worked in history? I’m not too familiar with it.
View attachment 1337743
No, it is not how it worked in history. Tinto misunderstands how the Chinese empire functioned.
China was willing to give gifts to its tributaries as a tool of persuasion but nothing more, in fact, China put limits on those who tried to abuse the system. And on top of that it made demands to their tributaries, like they requested a lot of horses from Korea, which put some stress on the Korean economy for a while.
The general idea behind Mandate of Heaven was to keep in check countries close to China (like sphere of influence), not some woo-woo shit like "good son of heaven" points
 
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Very cool!

1. Can you disestablish the Middle Kingdom altogether?
2. What happens if an Unsinicized country becomes the Huangdi? Does the Emperor's country get a strong push towards becoming fully sinicized? Otherwise it could lead to awkward situations where the tributaries are more Chinese than China itself lasting
3. Can we establish dynasties other than the three "historical" ones of the period? Fully custom ones?
 
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