• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #73 - 23th of July 2025 - Middle Kingdom

Hello and welcome to another happy edition of our Wednesday Tinto Talks. This week we will continue our eastern focus with a look at the core mechanics related to China: The Middle Kingdom and a disaster related to it, the Influence of China.

The Middle Kingdom is represented in game with an International Organization, with the Celestial Emperor (or Huángdì) as its leader.
Middle Kingdom tooltip.png

Middle Kingdom Panel.png

A usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.
The IO itself has territory assigned to it, what it considers to be its core territory. In the mapmode, that’s represented by solid colors, when owned by a country inside the IO and purple stripes when not currently owned by a member of the IO.
Middle Kingdom Map.png

Territory outside the IO but owned by a member of it is colored in stripes of different colors: yellow for the Celestial Emperor, green for the regular members, and bright green for the Celestial Governors - these colors are WIP, and a matter of review, not final.

Speaking about that, what is a Celestial Governor? They are members of the Middle Kingdom to which the emperor has granted special privileges, giving them some nice bonuses:
Celestial Governor.png

Countries can join the Middle Kingdom freely as long as they are not a subject, and either have their capital in Asia or have the appropriate cultural or religious groups. Subjects of the Celestial Emperor, however, will automatically join it.

Once a country is inside the Middle Kingdom, they will still be allowed to pursue their own diplomacy and wage their own wars (as long as they are not a subject type that forbids that), but they will also benefit from the protection of the Emperor, who may come to their assistance if they are attacked by an external threat (although that is not a guarantee). Also, they will be participating in the Tribute System.
Tribute System.png

Historically, the tribute system of China was manifested through tribute missions between the various countries and the current ruling dynasty, conducted at various frequencies. Countries would offer gifts to the Emperor for the Son of Heaven to recognize their rule, and they would get gifts of greater value in return.

In the game, this back and forth is simplified and abstracted to a payment that the Emperor has to perform, and the resulting money is divided among all members, according to their economic power. The emperor gets a slider in their economic panel to determine exactly how much tribute they are willing to pay, at the risk of losing Celestial Authority if the resulting tribute is too low.
Tribute Slider.png

Celestial Authority does not have any passive effect, but there is much content tied to it, with some risks involved if let to fall too low. Additionally, many actions require the use of Celestial Authority:
Laws and Actions.png

First off, let’s start talking about the Laws, as they define how the Middle Kingdom operates and also affect which actions will be available:
Administrative laws.png

Socieconomic Laws.png

Provincial governorship.png

Keju law.png

Outwards view.png

Codified Tribute.png

For example, ‘Conducting a Kējǔ Examination’ will only be possible as long as the ‘Direct Appointment’ policy is not active, while the appointment of new Celestial Governors can only be made if the ‘Codified Cèfēng Tǐzhì’ policy is active.

Let’s now look at the actions in more detail. For starters, as it was already mentioned, Conducting a Kējǔ Examination will allow the recruitment of a new capable character, with some historical characters being able to appear from it.
Exam event.png

‘Strengthen Ministry’ will allow the country to strengthen one of the 6 traditional ministries in Chinese administration, with varying effects. Some ministries will also be available to affect the outcomes of other actions.
Ministry of Personel.png

Ministry of Personel Modifier.png

Ministry of justice.png

Ministry of justice modifier.png

Lastly, the Proclaim Decree action will allow the emperor to choose a decree to enable for some temporary benefits, but it will also cost some Celestial Authority. The effects of the decrees last only for a short while, but are scaled by the amount of countries in the Middle Kingdom, the Emperor’s own Cabinet Efficiency, and other factors such as certain Ministries having been expanded.
Decrees.png

Additionally, the more decrees proclaimed, the less Celestial Authority that the Middle Kingdom will gain each month, representing the increasing complication of bureaucracy. However, the emperor can choose to ‘Reshape the Bureaucracy’, eliminating the accumulated penalty on Celestial Authority gain due to decrees.
Reshape Bureaucracy.png

Another thing you may have noticed in the Middle Kingdom panel is something called Eunuch Power. At some point, China will have the option to empower the eunuchs. Doing so will open the gates to some events and effects related to them, but that will be for you to discover, as this Tinto Talks is already getting long enough, and I still have another topic to discuss - a new, unique Societal Value.

Let’s now move to take a look at China from the outside and see what happens when a foreign country interacts with it. If a country not belonging to the Chinese culture group enters the orbit of China, it will unlock the Sinicized vs Unsinicized societal value:
Sinicized tooltip.png

Sinicized tooltip 2.png

Like other societal values, a country has many tools with which to nudge it towards one extreme or the other. However, what matters to us today is what happens when they reach high levels of Sinicization. Any free country that goes beyond 90 towards Sinicization and is less powerful than China may fall under the ‘Influence of China’ disaster
Sinicization disaster tooltip.png

Sinicization disaster staring event.png

There will be many possible events firing during it, in which the country will navigate between continuing to be influenced by Chinese culture, or establishing its own cultural independence.
Sinicization event7.png

Sinicization event 7 option.png

Sinicization event 8.png

Sinicization event 8 option.png

To get out of the disaster, the country has various options. For once, they will get out of it if they are no longer sinicized, there is not a China to which to compare them to, or they are already stronger than it. Alternatively, they can resolve the disaster via taking enough decisions towards the same direction in the events firing during it. When the disaster ends, a final event will fire, with options and results dependent on which exactly has been the way to exit the disaster.
Sinicization event final.png

You’ll have to play through the disaster yourselves to see all the options though…

And that is all for today. On Friday we will continue with a Tinto Flavour about China, and in next Wednesday’s Tinto Talks, we’ll have the final puzzle piece for the Chinese content - the Red Turbans Rebellion situation, and the Crisis of the Chinese Dynasty disaster. We hope to see you on both!

And remember: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
  • 97Like
  • 32Love
  • 6
  • 3
  • 3
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
The main thing this post is missing in my opinion is details on how leadership of this IO is transferred.

Is there a Casus belli to take control? Is it a more unique interaction requiring something like control over a certain number of Middle Kingdom core locations? What happens if the emperor loses all of their locations without transferring leadership, somehow? Is that possible, and if so can the IO be reformed? Is the mantle of leadership always attached to the China tag and if so, would it be recreated if the tag ceased to exist, and was then reformed? Can tags other than China take the mantle of emperor? If so, are there restrictions such as their capital needing to be in East Asia?
Yes, there is a casus belli to claim emperorship, available to not only Chinese cultures but also Mongolian, Jurchen, and also some related cultures like Korean or Vietnamese. And if China and the Middle Kingdom themselves are destroyed, there's an option of recreating it.
 
  • 44Like
  • 5
  • 5
  • 3
  • 2Love
Reactions:
Stereotypes about the Tribute System
As I pointed out in a previous development diary, it is an outdated and incorrect historical view that the emperor had to pay a high price to maintain relations with the tributary.
In the case of the Ming Dynasty, the so-called high prices were actually reflected in the price list set by China itself.
The Chinese court would assess the tribute at a very low price, and then mark the handicrafts it gave as extremely high prices. But in fact, this was not an unequal transaction for both parties, because the exotic items could be sold at a high price in their respective countries, so it was an equal trade.
The losses of the tribute were mainly due to the reception of the members of the delegation (such as banquets, hotels, etc.), and each envoy would receive a small reward as an individual reward. Therefore, some tributary countries would take advantage of this loophole and send 300 (!) envoys at a time, thereby obtaining a lot of extra income. Of course, the Ming Dynasty strictly prohibited such things after it became aware of them.
 
  • 26Like
  • 7
Reactions:
Yes, there is a casus belli to claim emperorship, available to not only Chinese cultures but also Mongolian, Jurchen, and also some related cultures like Korean or Vietnamese. And if China and the Middle Kingdom themselves are destroyed, there's an option of recreating it.
So can for example random Indians or Portuguese or whoever not establish a Chinese dynasty, even if they succeeded?
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
How come it's all the same image? I hope there will be richer and more distinctive artwork when the game is officially released. Moreover, the Chinese clothing in this image isn't authentic enough—it leans more towards the characteristics of northern nomadic tribes instead.
 
  • 8Like
Reactions:
Cool dev diary, but the one thing that still continues to confuse me is the fact that China is the one giving money to its tributaries. It feels weird and counter-intuitive? Is that really how it worked in history? I’m not too familiar with it.
View attachment 1337743
Historically, there were exchange of goods both ways, but in the game we represent the end result which is the emperor paying more than receiving.
 
  • 36Like
  • 7
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
I assume that the head of the IO position can be taken over by conquering enough land in China, for things like the historical formation of the Qing dynasty. Do you need a capitol in china to become the head of the IO, or could Spain become emperor of China if a certain very crazy plan they had be successfully executed by the player?
Unless Spain changed culture to one for which the casus belli of claiming emperorship is available, they would be able to join the IO but not take the leadership.
 
  • 18
  • 16Like
Reactions:
Seeing some of the replies skeptical about the tribute system, I did some reading, and from a very brief search this doesn't look right. It seems that the main value that the tributaries got from their status was trade relations, and the exchanging of gifts was often equal, with the goods from China being valuable to the tributaries while the gifts from the tributaries were valuable in China - in other words it was a mutually valuable trade. The main loss for the emperor was in hosting the tributary delegation - and some emperors did not foot that bill, reducing the number of delegations.

If that is the case, it seems like the effects should be an increase in trade modifiers for both sides and maybe a lump sum trade % paid to both sides every few years. It also seems like there should be a way to increase the demands on a tributary like Korea to extract more tribute, or to restrict how often they can receive gifts, which would create flat income rather than trade bonuses, as I saw plenty of mention of both demands for more tribute and banning of tributaries for exploiting the system.

I'd like to do more reading, but I'm curious if the devs could point toward sources for this system? I see it mentioned a lot online as "Both sides give gifts, but the tributary gets the higher value gift" but so far none of those mentions has come with a substantial citation of any kind. Quite honestly I'm wondering if this is a misunderstanding or just plain myth, so I'd be eager to see any reputable source that the team is basing this depiction off of.
 
Last edited:
  • 20Like
  • 7
  • 1
Reactions:
Cool dev diary, but the one thing that still continues to confuse me is the fact that China is the one giving money to its tributaries. It feels weird and counter-intuitive? Is that really how it worked in history? I’m not too familiar with it.

It's complex and varied from time to time, but sometimes, yes. A common explanation is that exchanging unbalanced gifts with tributaries was useful internal Chinese legitimacy, and for making sure that your tributaries kept coming to your court. Some other historians have described the system as one of highly regulated and ritualistic international trade. At times, they scaled back the gifts because the tributaries were coming too often for the nice gifts!
 
  • 5Like
  • 3
Reactions:
Please use the correct Han people's clothing for Sinicized illustrations, not Manchu-Qing clothing

O1CN01oL3YrV1nct0kHuBVD_!!906495111.jpg_Q75.jpg_.webp

View attachment 1337750
The Manchu were chosen precisely because they are the ones that during the game's time period start uncinicized but then sinicize and end up even forming the Qing Dynasty. That's why they are present on both sides of the illustration, in their uncinicized Jurchen version on one side, and in their sinicized Qing version on the other.
 
  • 65Like
  • 28
  • 14
  • 6
  • 2Love
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
You said that there was a back forth of gift-giving that was simplified with the Emperor paying the Subjects. But do the Subjects still pay to the Emperor (like one of the Disaster events imply), just at a lower rate? Or did you cut even that step of the process?
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Does the emperor of china actually benifit in any way from being emporor? I might be misjudging a bit but it looks like a huge finacial drain for basically noting. It would be unfortunate if the first goal for a chineese emporor player was to stop being the chineese emporor.
They get many good modifiers, as well as access to some very good actions and interactions, events, etc.
 
  • 29Like
  • 3
Reactions: