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Tinto Talks #73 - 23th of July 2025 - Middle Kingdom

Hello and welcome to another happy edition of our Wednesday Tinto Talks. This week we will continue our eastern focus with a look at the core mechanics related to China: The Middle Kingdom and a disaster related to it, the Influence of China.

The Middle Kingdom is represented in game with an International Organization, with the Celestial Emperor (or Huángdì) as its leader.
Middle Kingdom tooltip.png

Middle Kingdom Panel.png

A usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.
The IO itself has territory assigned to it, what it considers to be its core territory. In the mapmode, that’s represented by solid colors, when owned by a country inside the IO and purple stripes when not currently owned by a member of the IO.
Middle Kingdom Map.png

Territory outside the IO but owned by a member of it is colored in stripes of different colors: yellow for the Celestial Emperor, green for the regular members, and bright green for the Celestial Governors - these colors are WIP, and a matter of review, not final.

Speaking about that, what is a Celestial Governor? They are members of the Middle Kingdom to which the emperor has granted special privileges, giving them some nice bonuses:
Celestial Governor.png

Countries can join the Middle Kingdom freely as long as they are not a subject, and either have their capital in Asia or have the appropriate cultural or religious groups. Subjects of the Celestial Emperor, however, will automatically join it.

Once a country is inside the Middle Kingdom, they will still be allowed to pursue their own diplomacy and wage their own wars (as long as they are not a subject type that forbids that), but they will also benefit from the protection of the Emperor, who may come to their assistance if they are attacked by an external threat (although that is not a guarantee). Also, they will be participating in the Tribute System.
Tribute System.png

Historically, the tribute system of China was manifested through tribute missions between the various countries and the current ruling dynasty, conducted at various frequencies. Countries would offer gifts to the Emperor for the Son of Heaven to recognize their rule, and they would get gifts of greater value in return.

In the game, this back and forth is simplified and abstracted to a payment that the Emperor has to perform, and the resulting money is divided among all members, according to their economic power. The emperor gets a slider in their economic panel to determine exactly how much tribute they are willing to pay, at the risk of losing Celestial Authority if the resulting tribute is too low.
Tribute Slider.png

Celestial Authority does not have any passive effect, but there is much content tied to it, with some risks involved if let to fall too low. Additionally, many actions require the use of Celestial Authority:
Laws and Actions.png

First off, let’s start talking about the Laws, as they define how the Middle Kingdom operates and also affect which actions will be available:
Administrative laws.png

Socieconomic Laws.png

Provincial governorship.png

Keju law.png

Outwards view.png

Codified Tribute.png

For example, ‘Conducting a Kējǔ Examination’ will only be possible as long as the ‘Direct Appointment’ policy is not active, while the appointment of new Celestial Governors can only be made if the ‘Codified Cèfēng Tǐzhì’ policy is active.

Let’s now look at the actions in more detail. For starters, as it was already mentioned, Conducting a Kējǔ Examination will allow the recruitment of a new capable character, with some historical characters being able to appear from it.
Exam event.png

‘Strengthen Ministry’ will allow the country to strengthen one of the 6 traditional ministries in Chinese administration, with varying effects. Some ministries will also be available to affect the outcomes of other actions.
Ministry of Personel.png

Ministry of Personel Modifier.png

Ministry of justice.png

Ministry of justice modifier.png

Lastly, the Proclaim Decree action will allow the emperor to choose a decree to enable for some temporary benefits, but it will also cost some Celestial Authority. The effects of the decrees last only for a short while, but are scaled by the amount of countries in the Middle Kingdom, the Emperor’s own Cabinet Efficiency, and other factors such as certain Ministries having been expanded.
Decrees.png

Additionally, the more decrees proclaimed, the less Celestial Authority that the Middle Kingdom will gain each month, representing the increasing complication of bureaucracy. However, the emperor can choose to ‘Reshape the Bureaucracy’, eliminating the accumulated penalty on Celestial Authority gain due to decrees.
Reshape Bureaucracy.png

Another thing you may have noticed in the Middle Kingdom panel is something called Eunuch Power. At some point, China will have the option to empower the eunuchs. Doing so will open the gates to some events and effects related to them, but that will be for you to discover, as this Tinto Talks is already getting long enough, and I still have another topic to discuss - a new, unique Societal Value.

Let’s now move to take a look at China from the outside and see what happens when a foreign country interacts with it. If a country not belonging to the Chinese culture group enters the orbit of China, it will unlock the Sinicized vs Unsinicized societal value:
Sinicized tooltip.png

Sinicized tooltip 2.png

Like other societal values, a country has many tools with which to nudge it towards one extreme or the other. However, what matters to us today is what happens when they reach high levels of Sinicization. Any free country that goes beyond 90 towards Sinicization and is less powerful than China may fall under the ‘Influence of China’ disaster
Sinicization disaster tooltip.png

Sinicization disaster staring event.png

There will be many possible events firing during it, in which the country will navigate between continuing to be influenced by Chinese culture, or establishing its own cultural independence.
Sinicization event7.png

Sinicization event 7 option.png

Sinicization event 8.png

Sinicization event 8 option.png

To get out of the disaster, the country has various options. For once, they will get out of it if they are no longer sinicized, there is not a China to which to compare them to, or they are already stronger than it. Alternatively, they can resolve the disaster via taking enough decisions towards the same direction in the events firing during it. When the disaster ends, a final event will fire, with options and results dependent on which exactly has been the way to exit the disaster.
Sinicization event final.png

You’ll have to play through the disaster yourselves to see all the options though…

And that is all for today. On Friday we will continue with a Tinto Flavour about China, and in next Wednesday’s Tinto Talks, we’ll have the final puzzle piece for the Chinese content - the Red Turbans Rebellion situation, and the Crisis of the Chinese Dynasty disaster. We hope to see you on both!

And remember: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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There are many Chinese languages, and not all dynasties have used Mandarin, so we are not forcing any one in particular.
This depends to some extent on how Mandarin is defined. However, to put it simply and clearly, once the concept of Mandarin in the general sense emerged, the spoken language widely used in the courts of all dynasties was Mandarin, rather than any other dialect or language.
 
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It is not surprising that the entire tribute mechanism is almost entirely based on stereotypes and does not conform to any form of real history.
Unfortunately, it seems that I need to move the post from CK3 here again.
About Tribute System

This stereotype has been a backward view for many years, especially after examining the list of tribute gifts exchanged by Chinese dynasties in East Asia and Southeast Asia (mainly based on Ming Dynasty records, only because Ming Dynasty records are more detailed).


Firstly, it is necessary to clarify a clearly erroneous viewpoint: tribute countries (rather than Chinese dynasties) always hope to frequently come to pay tribute, because tribute is a way to obtain goods directly from China at a lower cost (rather than indirectly obtaining goods through Chinese or other merchants, such as silk, porcelain, tea, etc.), and obtaining goods is the main source of profit for tribute countries, rather than the gold and silver rewards given by the emperor (in fact, the emperor only rewards a small amount of copper coins).

Regarding the issue of Chinese goods, in fact, this is not a reward from the emperor, but rather a situation where tribute teams are allowed to freely trade goods within China, and the prices of silk, porcelain, tea and other goods in China are much lower than outside China, resulting in a win-win situation to some extent. The tribute country obtained rare Chinese goods by approaching the cost price of the place of origin, which can generate huge profits for both domestic use and resale. In fact, the place of origin of Chinese goods sold these goods at a higher price than the local price, resulting in more profits compared to ordinary trade. Only merchants trading in China and other regions suffered losses.

China's gift-return generally consists of several aspects: symbolic copper coins (rather than gold and silver), objects given by the emperor to the monarchs of tribute countries for use (to show the emperor's importance, usually jade or gold and silver objects), and more importantly, Chinese commodity trade qualifications (such as silk, porcelain, and tea, which is why tribute is usually considered to have trade attributes). In the Ming Dynasty, even the returned copper coins were replaced by paper currency 大明宝钞, and the emperor would forcibly claim that these paper currency had the value stated on paper (however, in fact, they were worthless waste paper due to inflation).

Due to the long-term lack of heavy metal mines (such as copper mines) in Chinese dynasties, it is difficult to consider it reasonable to reward tribute countries with a large amount of precious metals, especially since most of China's tribute countries have heavy metal mines (especially Japan, which has famous copper and silver resources). Compared to precious metal rewards, Chinese luxury goods are more valuable rewards for those tribute countries.
QQ20250626-225653.png


paper currency of Ming Dynasty 大明宝钞

For Korea, the emperors of the Yuan and Ming dynasties even demanded a large number of horses as tribute (even though Korea produced very few horses, which was a form of exploitation by the emperor of the tribute country), which had a huge impact on Korea's national strength. However, due to the importance of luxury goods such as silk and porcelain trade, Korea remained enthusiastic about tribute.

Another example is the Japanese tribute notes during the reign of Emperor Yingzong of Ming Dynasty, which recorded 9,483 Japanese swords as tribute, each valued at 6 guan 贯 copper coins (i.e. 6,000 copper coins), but denominated in paper currency. However, the 6 guan paper currency was actually only worth 30 copper coins in the market, which was a huge loss for Japan. Nevertheless, the Chinese goods purchased by the Japanese tribute team during the tribute period brought them profits of over 90,000 guan copper coins (i.e. 90,000,000 copper coins) upon their return to Japan. (The information comes from the records of Emperor Yingzong of Ming Dynasty 明英宗实录)

Many stereotypes tend to overestimate the value of rebates in tribute to the emperor, without considering that the main item in rebates is artifacts rather than currency. They consider Chinese goods purchased by tribute groups as gifts from the emperor, and often value these goods outside of China, ignoring that these goods are not related to the emperor himself and that China, as the largest producer, only needs to calculate cost prices.

In addition, another legal provision also briefly proves that tribute is not unprofitable.
According to the laws of the Ming Dynasty 大明律, if tribute vessels that have not been inspected and confirmed by the government engage in private trade, all relevant personnel will be sent to the military front line (such as Mongolia) as soldiers.

Price conversion of various commodities in Ming Dynasty tribute, pictures from the history of Chinese coastal defense 中国海防史:

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One jin 斤 of tribute iron 铁 (593 grams) is estimated to be worth 3.75 copper coins, one jin 斤 of pepper 胡椒 is estimated to cost 37.5 copper coins, while a blue and white porcelain bowl 青花白瓷碗 produced in China is estimated to be worth 3,750 copper coins, and an iron pot 铁锅 produced in China is estimated to be worth 1,875 copper coins (at the same time, the price of an iron pot in the Chinese market is 100 copper coins). Data from the book about the Ming Dynasty 大明会典. Even at several tens of times the price, these goods can still generate huge profits for tribute countries when sold again (especially considering that more Western countries value silk and porcelain with gold and silver, while during the Ming Dynasty, 1 liang 两 (37.3 grams) of silver could be exchanged for 1000 to 1500 copper coins).

About Mandate of Heaven

Furthermore, I completely do not understand the reason for linking the imperial examination, legal reform, and tribute country. These policies are completely unrelated to foreign affairs, and even local governments without any tribute countries still conduct imperial examinations.

As expected, the eunuch was once again emphasized. Even in the era of EU4, when the production team consulted mod creators, we repeatedly pointed out that the eunuch group in the Ming and Qing dynasties did not hold such enormous real power. They are just an extension of the emperor's power, they do not own land locally, and can be freely disposed of by the emperor in the palace without being stopped by anyone. I don't know why Devs has been fixated on the issue of eunuchs in China since the era of EU4. Confucian scholars and landlords are the more important core issues, especially after the imperial examination, Confucian scholars can be exempted from land taxes, and there is also the issue of land consolidation.

About Arts

The emperor's crown should have 12 pearl threads instead of 10.

I don't know why all the art pictures related to China point to the Manchu people, even though China has always been a country dominated by the Han ethnic group in history. All the event images depict Qing Dynasty clothing and Manchu people, and surprisingly, the icon of Chinese influence is the official hat of the Qing Dynasty. Has the Qing Dynasty existed since 1337? The Ming Dynasty, which dominated the gameplay throughout the game, was almost completely ignored in art, and the two opposing images of Manchu people and Sauron Jurchen people in Sinicization were even more inexplicable. Why did Devs choose the Qing Dynasty, which is relatively unique among all Chinese dynasties, as the main object of artistic inspiration?

I don't have an answer.
 
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Can the Huangdi mediate or intervene in a war between two IO members, much like the emperors of the Ming dynasty did when conflicts arose between Vietnam and Champa?

Speaking of Vietnam, can the Huangdi issue an imperial edict demanding the restoration of a deposed royal house of an IO member, and, upon refusal, use this as a legitimate reason to wage war? Of course, once victory is achieved, whether the previous royal house is restored or the territory is directly annexed would depend entirely on the sacred judgement of the Son of Heaven.
Not as general mechanics, but there is specific content for the case of Vietnam and Champa.
 
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The Manchu were chosen precisely because they are the ones that during the game's time period start uncinicized but then sinicize and end up even forming the Qing Dynasty. That's why they are present on both sides of the illustration, in their uncinicized Jurchen version on one side, and in their sinicized Qing version on the other.
This is not a correct understanding
1. Manchus only adopted the Chinese system and culture, but did not sinicize the appearance of clothing. The clothing on the left is still in the style of Siberia and the Mongolian Plateau, not Chinese style.
2. On the contrary, after Manchu conquered China, he made the Chinese clothing become Manchu style. It is unrealistic to say that this is sinicized. It is just like saying that Arab clothing during the Arab rule of the Iberian Peninsula represents Spain.
 
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I'd like to do more reading, but I'm curious if the devs could point toward sources for this system? I see it mentioned a lot online as "Both sides give gifts, but the tributary gets the higher value gift" but so far none of those mentions has come with a substantial citation of any kind.
You can take a look at my reply, I have marked the references.
 
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Will land and maritime connections be considered when making/receiving Tributary payments? Like being blockaded or are surrounded by hostile neighbours.

Or the sea routes are filled with pirates and Tributaries and the Middle Kingdom don't have high Maritime Presence.
 
Historically, there were exchange of goods both ways, but in the game we represent the end result which is the emperor paying more than receiving.
From a strictly monetary perspective, would it not then be the best play to have as few Middle Kingdom members as possible to reduce the outflow of cash while retaining the Celestial Authority boon from having that expense slider at max?
 
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I think this kinda joins the SoP gameplay discussion and various other trades related discussions where trade would need some fundamental change to be "better" represented. Basically allowing goods to transit between locs / countries rather than pure "markets". And assuming this can somehow happen, the the tributaries relationship could become more based on goods and less on money, giving an overall better representation
 
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Is there anyway for the emperor to convert tributes into proper subjects?

Also can I suggest using green for the emperor and yellow for the members? Green is just more striking and is bolder
 
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