Tinto Talks #73 - 23th of July 2025 - Middle Kingdom

[tsr-aph]

I get what you are trying to show, but I'm not a fan of the purple stripes in the IO territory image.

I feel like it is confusing to have three coloured stripes represent non-core territory that the IO holds, then have one colour represent core territory that the IO doesn't hold.

My preference would be for purple stripes to be replaced with solid purple (or another colour) so that there is a clear visual distinction.

 

[titan.bevel]

Would it be correct for the Chinese tribute system to abandon money and use goods? For example, the Chinese emperor would annually demand some amount of 5-7 of China's most scarce resources - iron, copper, tools, weapons, horses. Then as a reciprocal gift he would return a 120-150% of that amount in traditional Chinese goods such as tea, porcelain, paper, jewelry. Suppose Korea hands over 10 horses worth 50 ducats as tribute and receives from the emperor 5 cases of porcelain valued at 35 ducats and 5 cases of tea also valued at 35 ducats.

I suppose this would be more correct, but we have to remember goods currently transit through markets, never a private state. I'll shamelessly plug my trade goods revamp suggestion regarding this problem : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/trade-improvement-suggestion.1851944/

 

[NERTR]

A main problem is that. no matter actively or passively, every later-developing countries receives influence from nearby Great Powers, Sinicization is not unique, even in timespan covered by EU.

But as far as I know, this kind of influence rarely manifests itself as the full adoption of another country's administrative system, clothing, writing, religion, etc. Considering the comprehensiveness of this influence, I think it is okay to make it a separate function. If there is a similar situation, I also support it, at least it can make the game more interesting.

 

[Knarraldin]

But as far as I know, this kind of influence rarely manifests itself as the full adoption of another country's administrative system, clothing, writing, religion, etc. Considering the comprehensiveness of this influence, I think it is okay to make it a separate function. If there is a similar situation, I also support it, at least it can make the game more interesting.

Foreign cultures rarely manage to conquer entire cultural empires, too. The hordes also had to adopt Persian administation and governance to govern Persia. I imagine it would be kind of like if Fez managed to conquer the whole of the HRE (pretending such a thing was possible for a moment), they probably would have had to "Germanize" to be able to maintain any control at all. I don't know that "sinicization" in this regard really means much of anything outside of "adapting your regime to be able to govern conquered territories of greater size and population." If Sinicization means anything else, it's the Chinese influence on Korea and Vietnam specifically and other tributaries more generally to a lesser extent, as they integrated more with China over time.

 

[Druch11]

The core issue lies in how "Sinicization" represents the influence of Han Chinese culture on neighboring civilizations—including Tibet, Vietnam, Ryukyu, Korea, and Japan. Featuring Manchuria in this context lacks representativeness.The term "Sinicized" directly translates from "漢化" (Han hua), where "Han" refers to the Han ethnicity. Yet the current imagery contains zero elements of authentic Sinicization. At best, this depicts feudalization or Manchu modernization. Even the clothing on the right side of the image exhibits more Han influence than the left.

I think the debate over Sinicized vs Unsinicized image really comes down to different viewpoints.

Many Chinese users want Sinicized to be shown with Chinese figures and Unsinicized with non‑Chinese ones.

The problem is that this image isn't about Chinese people at all, but about how Manchus or other non‑Chinese ethnicities accept or reject Chinese influence.

I can see why some Chinese users feel unhappy about putting the Manchus front and center, but the image's focus isn't on China.

 

[tribnia]

But as far as I know, this kind of influence rarely manifests itself as the full adoption of another country's administrative system, clothing, writing, religion, etc. Considering the comprehensiveness of this influence, I think it is okay to make it a separate function. If there is a similar situation, I also support it, at least it can make the game more interesting.

Didn't Sweden fully adopted feudal system, European attires, Latin alphabet and Catholic?

 

[NERTR]

Foreign cultures rarely manage to conquer entire cultural empires, too. The hordes also had to adopt Persian administation and governance to govern Persia. I imagine it would be kind of like if Fez managed to conquer the whole of the HRE (pretending such a thing was possible for a moment), they probably would have had to "Germanize" to be able to maintain any control at all. I don't know that "sinicization" in this regard really means much of anything outside of "adapting your regime to be able to govern conquered territories of greater size and population." If Sinicization means anything else, it's the Chinese influence on Korea and Vietnam specifically and other tributaries more generally to a lesser extent, as they integrated more with China over time.

This is a game mechanism with gains and losses, and it is related to history. Considering that the Mongols and Manchus faced the problem of whether to sinicize after their successful invasion, I think there is nothing wrong with setting up this mechanism. If there is similar history in other places, there should also be this mechanism. For example, I hope that the Incas can choose "Westernization" to get more buffs, simulating that they accept unknown technology from Europe. On the contrary, this will expose them to more Old World viruses, resulting in population losses. I think the existence of this framework allows modder to create more great things

 

[tribnia]

The Manchu were chosen precisely because they are the ones that during the game's time period start uncinicized but then sinicize and end up even forming the Qing Dynasty. That's why they are present on both sides of the illustration, in their uncinicized Jurchen version on one side, and in their sinicized Qing version on the other.

So a problem is that, what Manchus are wearing, and their alphabet, were borrowed from Tumed Mongols. Murals of Altan Khan shows that they had worn that costume since 16th century. So the illustration itself in fact depicts... Earlier Mongols on the right and Later Mongols on the left.

Edit: I noticed someone disagreed. It must be so painful to break a stereotype.

 

[crowdemon]

Good Tinto Talks on the Middle Kingdom.

 

[111asdasd1234]

The core issue lies in how "Sinicization" represents the influence of Han Chinese culture on neighboring civilizations—including Tibet, Vietnam, Ryukyu, Korea, and Japan. Featuring Manchuria in this context lacks representativeness.The term "Sinicized" directly translates from "漢化" (Han hua), where "Han" refers to the Han ethnicity. Yet the current imagery contains zero elements of authentic Sinicization. At best, this depicts feudalization or Manchu modernization. Even the clothing on the right side of the image exhibits more Han influence than the left.

Why can’t the Manchus stand in for Sinicization? Is the depth of Sinicization really judged by how Chinese someone looks or how much they love China?

Accepting Chinese culture is not the same as wanting to become Chinese or actually becoming Chinese. Some people whether consciously or not lump the two together.

 

[NERTR]

Why can’t the Manchus stand in for Sinicization? Is the depth of Sinicization really judged by how Chinese someone looks or how much they love China?

Accepting Chinese culture is not the same as wanting to become Chinese or actually becoming Chinese. Some people whether consciously or not lump the two together.

Everything except clothing. After the Manchus conquered China, they forced the Han people to change their clothes into Manchu clothing and shave their hair into Manchu hairstyles. If they refused, they would be massacred. Millions of people died because of this, and there were uprisings caused by this. I don't think it is an appropriate choice to use Manchu clothing as a symbol of sinicization in this historical context.This involves national scars, like The Holocaust for the Jews

 

[zeruosi]

I think I prefer Middle Kingdom, much more flavourful and how the people themselves would have referred to it as.

I'd prefer to be called 'Celestial Empire' (天朝) - it captures ancient China's arrogance. A fallen, arrogant heavenly empire.

 

[zeruosi]

Cool dev diary, but the one thing that still continues to confuse me is the fact that China is the one giving money to its tributaries. It feels weird and counter-intuitive? Is that really how it worked in history? I’m not too familiar with it.
View attachment 1337743

Of course not. I've written about this in a previous post.

So far, this is a fairly rough thinking plan and is a relatively novel historical research achievement
In the tribute system we saw a long time ago, we learned that the Yuan Dynasty needed to pay tribute countries funds to maintain their loyalty, and tribute countries would provide some prestige or other rewards to the Yuan Dynasty.
But in reality, this is not entirely historical and may not be as playable.
The tribute system is not so much a loyal vassal state as a license to join the Chinese market. An example that is more understandable to Westerners is the Economic Cooperation Mechanism similar to that of the Soviet Union.
When tribute missions come to offer special products to the Chinese emperor, they also carry a large amount of other goods for sale among the Chinese people. Simultaneously purchase a large quantity of Chinese products to bring back.
Rather than being a vassal state system controlled by China, it is more accurate to say that this is an international trade system centered around China. Tribute paying countries often use the opportunity of tribute to engage in diplomacy and trade, exchanging goods and necessary materials with each other.
So this is why it is effective when China announces that a country is banned from paying tribute, which is equivalent to kicking a modern country out of the WTO. For example, after Japan was banned from paying tribute by China, all its overseas resources were cut off, and it could only rely on piracy and smuggling to survive. This led to many items that were originally not valuable within Japan being hyped up to extremely high prices.So Japan attempted to return to the tribute system for a relatively long time, until the Tokugawa shogunate declared complete seclusion and banned all foreign resources.
Then there is the impact of tribute on China, which undoubtedly increases China's influence. Usually, Chinese emperors would give gifts worth several times more to envoys, which is why many countries would pay tribute multiple times, even changing their country names to pay tribute.
But it should be noted that the Chinese emperor and officials are not fools. China is a highly secular and materialistic country, and they will not harm their own interests for the sake of false international reputation and influence.
So the gift given by the Chinese emperor is not worth much in China, but it is very valuable on paper (and its value is overestimated), and it is also very valuable within the tribute country. Even so, officials usually deduct some gifts and use inferior products or Ming Dynasty banknotes that are well-known as waste paper as substitutes.
However, even if the value of the gift is not that high, tribute usually has benefits, as I mentioned before, selling it among the people and trading it with other tribute countries.
In addition, the tribute countries were divided into different levels, with the most important tribute country being the Kingdom of Korea, which was explicitly protected by the Ming Dynasty. However, the Ming Dynasty imposed a certain degree of embargo on the Kingdom of Korea, which resulted in restrictions on the development of firearms in the Kingdom of Korea (to some extent, this led to their instant defeat by Japan).
The second most frequently paying tribute countries are Vietnam, Japan, Ryukyu, and other countries that did not receive explicit protection from the Ming Dynasty, but were nominally protected by the Ming Dynasty. Therefore, to a considerable extent, when invading these countries, the existence of the Ming Dynasty needs to be taken into account and covered up. For example, Japan's occupation of the Ryukyu Kingdom.
Another example is countries that are relatively far away, such as India and some countries in Africa, which have left the tribute system after several tributes. These tribute systems are not stable, and as the distance increases, the probability of leaving the tribute system also increases. They did not receive any protection promised by the Ming Dynasty, and joined the tribute system only because it was profitable. Moreover, their tribute time intervals were relatively long, so the Ming Dynasty was not concerned about these countries.

So I believe that the tribute system should be modified to include joining the tribute country system, which can enjoy lower tariff treatment (if any), share ideas and technological achievements with China and other tribute countries, but usually slower than China's technological progress (because China will hinder the natural development of tribute country technology).
For primary tribute countries, this will increase the happiness of the nobility (luxury goods in China), increase trade income, and improve the favorability of all countries in the entire tribute system.
For advanced tributary countries, this will receive nominal protection from China, but China may not necessarily participate in the war and will not engage in wars between tributary countries. At the same time, it will slightly slow down the pace of technological progress, increase the happiness of merchants and nobles, enhance national prosperity, and unlock some special diplomatic mechanisms within the tribute system. And the technology and ideas unlocked by oneself will be obtained by China during tribute events.
For the ultimate tribute country, this will be completely tied to China, unlocking special diplomacy with China, but will lose most of the diplomatic capabilities with countries outside the tribute country system, the ability to declare themselves at the imperial level, greatly enhancing the legitimacy of the king, and technology and ideology cannot surpass China (due to China's intervention). With China's full protection, China will consider it as its vassal state. Improve the happiness of all social classes in China, significantly increase prosperity and trade income, and when China unlocks technology and trends, it will also unlock itself.

To the Chinese emperor, tribute will enhance international prestige, trade revenue, and prosperity. At the same time, the technology unlocked by the tribute country will also be unlocked by itself, giving it the vision of a high-level tribute country and special diplomacy towards it. It is not allowed to declare war on the advanced and ultimate tribute countries, but when the ultimate tribute country is attacked, it will definitely participate in the war, and the ultimate tribute country will also join the foreign wars of the Chinese dynasty.
It is possible to revoke the tribute authority of a certain high-level tribute country, which will result in all high-level tribute countries being banned and expelled, causing a significant blow to their trade revenue.

For countries that are expelled, their trade revenue will be greatly affected, their international prestige will plummet, their legitimacy will decline, they will no longer be protected, and any country can declare war on them.
Leaving the tribute system means that junior tribute states will not receive any punishment for leaving, although it is difficult for them to rejoin the tribute system. The departure of advanced tribute countries from the tribute system will anger the Chinese emperor, and China may declare an embargo or even war on you. At the same time, domestic happiness will also decrease, and any country may declare war on you.
It should be noted that all tribute countries cannot be annexed.
(I think this tribute system may be quite interesting. When I play in EU5, I will include all the countries in the world in my tribute system.)

Regarding this, the latest research shows that tribute was a unique trading system. It is indeed possible that the emperor would bestow more gifts on the tributary states that he liked or were loyal to him. However, in most cases, the value of the gifts bestowed by the emperor was not significant to China. For example, the iron pots and porcelain that were repeatedly granted by the Ming Dynasty. They were not valuable to China, the original producing country. Not to mention that the Ming Dynasty even used the notorious Great Ming Treasure Notes as gifts for a long time.

The "Great Ming Code" stipulates that the purchasing price of pepper for tribute envoys is 37.5 wen per jin. However, the problem is that the blue and white porcelain dishes exchanged for tribute envoys in the "Great Ming Code" are priced at 6,250 wen!

One blue and white porcelain dish is equivalent to 166 jin of pepper. The 10,000 jin of pepper presented by Siam in one tribute mission is only equivalent to the price of 60 porcelain dishes.

According to Chen Baoliang's research, in Songjiang in the late Ming Dynasty, a top-quality fine porcelain could be bought for 3 to 5 qian, which is equivalent to 0.5 taels each. That is to say, the imperial court sold them to tribute envoys at a price more than 12 times the market price. If we follow the quotation in the "Regulations of the Ministry of Works" during the Wanli reign, the price of porcelain dishes was reduced to 0.005 taels each, which is exactly the price of lower-grade fine porcelain in Songjiang. If calculated according to this price, it means selling to tribute envoys at a price 1,200 times the market price.

During the Hongzhi period, it was stipulated that for all tributes from foreign countries, the goods brought by the kings, queens, and envoys would be subject to a tax of one fifth, with the remaining four fifths returned in value, always in a combination of money and paper currency. For kings and queens, six parts would be in money and four parts in paper currency. For envoys and their entourages, four parts would be in money and six parts in paper currency. The returned value would be in goods, with one hundred strings of paper currency and five strings of copper coins being equivalent to ninety-five strings of paper currency in goods. This would increase progressively, all according to the set amounts. If the emperor specially exempted the tribute from the tax, it would not be subject to this rule.

The specific return prices for the tributes were as follows, with different prices for some countries' tributes:
Tributes:
Saffron, 500 coins per jin. Pepper, 3 guan per jin. Ivory, 500 coins per jin [10 guan for Siam].
Returns:
Rhubarb, 30 guan per jin. Blue and white porcelain plates, 500 guan each. Pots, three feet wide, 150 guan each.
The tributes were subject to a customs duty of half, and the returns were mostly high-premium goods, with a considerable amount of paper currency.

View attachment 1276041
This is a price comparison table. On the left is the value of the tribute gifts from tributary states after being maliciously undervalued by the Ming Dynasty. On the right is the value of the gifts bestowed by the Ming Dynasty after the prices were crazy inflated within the Ming Dynasty.

This comparison is simply insane. The Ming Dynasty raised the prices of many items to several thousand times the market price, while pushing down the prices of the tribute gifts from tributary states to about one-tenth of the market price.

 

[zeruosi]

No, it is not how it worked in history. Tinto misunderstands how the Chinese empire functioned.
China was willing to give gifts to its tributaries as a tool of persuasion but nothing more, in fact, China put limits on those who tried to abuse the system. And on top of that it made demands to their tributaries, like they requested a lot of horses from Korea, which put some stress on the Korean economy for a while.
The general idea behind Mandate of Heaven was to keep in check countries close to China (like sphere of influence), not some woo-woo shit like "good son of heaven" points

At times, the Ming Dynasty was indeed more lenient toward its tributary states than the Qing Dynasty was. (A famous example: the Qing demanded Korea provide 20 tons of persimmons annually, threatening military invasion if refused.) Ming's relationship with tributaries was more reciprocal - Korea supplied horses and other specialty products, while Ming reciprocated with textiles, porcelain, and ironware. Overall, both sides benefited.

Of course, if Korea overstepped (such as during Ming's early years when its systems were immature, sending tribute more than a dozen times in one year), Ming would impose restrictions. Indeed, early Ming was willing to spend heavily to gain face and authority, which created fiscal pressure.

By the mid-to-late Ming period, the tribute gifts were significantly reduced, making the relationship more transactional. Of course, this applied only to Korea - Ming's "favorite son" among tributaries. For less favored states, Ming's attitude became markedly harsher.

 

[zeruosi]

Historically, there were exchange of goods both ways, but in the game we represent the end result which is the emperor paying more than receiving.

Frankly, if that's the case, there's no point in maintaining this tributary network at all - I might as well abandon it entirely. I don't mind taking a financial loss, but the returns should be commensurately greater. At the very least, I should get to dictate what each tributary state offers as tribute, just like in EU4.

 

[zeruosi]

The Manchu were chosen precisely because they are the ones that during the game's time period start uncinicized but then sinicize and end up even forming the Qing Dynasty. That's why they are present on both sides of the illustration, in their uncinicized Jurchen version on one side, and in their sinicized Qing version on the other.

The Qing Dynasty is famously a non-Sinicized regime. Why not examine the attire of other dynasties like the Yuan, Jin, and Liao? Other countries influenced by Chinese civilization - Korea, Japan, Ryukyu, and Annam - all adopted clothing styles resembling Hanfu rather than Jurchen attire. A civilization inclined toward Sinicization should have incorporated more Han Chinese elements rather than Qing-style dress.

Moreover, the right-side depiction isn't traditional Jurchen clothing but rather Mongolian dress. The Jurchen were an agricultural-fishing-hunting people, not nomads. This attire clearly reflects Mongolian style. In contrast, the Qing costume on the left actually bears closer resemblance to traditional Jurchen dress.

 

[Kvesir]

I don't understand why being Sinicized would give you up to +10% monthly research growth rather than a discount on the specific techs that China has researched.
This would cause Sinicized nations to get more research than China itself.

 

[zeruosi]

We are aware of that, and also the fact that many things considered "Chinese" in the west are actually "Manchu" instead. However, we still thought that it would be clearer if we used the Manchu in both sides. If instead we used pure Han clothing on one side, the resulting image would seem like two different peoples instead of the same one transitioning from uncinicized to sinicized. Sinicization is not to represent the adoption of Chinese clothing, but instead the adoption of Chinese system and culture, and so Qing-style Manchu represent that in our opinion, as they did precisely that.

I'm afraid I can't agree with this approach. If you're going to make these changes, at the very least, you should depict traditional Han Chinese attire in the far left panels to reflect the historical reality that Manchu royalty and nobility occasionally adopted Han clothing and hairstyles. This would also visually demonstrate their gradual assimilation into Han culture. The right side can remain unchanged as is.

 

[luo]

I don't understand why being Sinicized would give you up to +10% monthly research growth rather than a discount on the specific techs that China has researched.
This would cause Sinicized nations to get more research than China itself.

Just like how the Korean Tripitaka in EU4 can increase the global institution spread: it is a Korean printed version of the Tripitaka collected in China, but the original Chinese Tripitaka does not have the same ability.

 

[zeruosi]

1. Yuan Dynasty was never a Chinese/Middle kingdom. Dai Yuan was just sinicized term of GREAT MONGOL EMPIRE, the direct successor of Chinggis Khaan's Empire.

Here is the details:

840-1035. Mongol tribes were under Liao empire (Liao were mongols, but half urbanized and sedentary).
1035-1189. Mongol tribes were under nobody's control. They were struggling for internal conflicts for 150 years.
1189-1206. Temujin, a son of Mongol Chieftain (Khan) from Khamag Mongol khanate, became the main political figure amassing enough support from other khanates.
1206-1260. Temujin declared himself as Chinggis Khaan-Emperor like Ocean (not Khan, but Khaan. The 2 terms are hierarchically different in Mongolian language).

1206-1227. Chinggis started military campaigns outside of Mongol realm, founded Great Mongol Empire. Chinggis Khaan compared himself as Xiongnu (Huns) Emperors, his direct ancestors. Chinggis had four sons, Jochi (Jochid successors), Chagatai (Chagataid successors), Ogedei (Ogeteid successors) and Tolui (Toluid successors).

1228-1260. After Chinggis death, there were 3 Great Khaans, Ogedei, Guyug (Ogeteid), Mongke (Toluid). By 1260 Great Mongol Empire was between Pacific ocean and Black sea, Mediterranean sea, Indian ocean. Baltic sea. By the death of Mongke, his brothers started the war for the succession, so were the Imperial nobles divided.

1261-1368. Khubilai, the Toluid grandson of Chinggis Khaan won the succession war and his Toluid brother Arigbokhe lost his cause. Khubilai continued Great Mongol Empire tradition and statehood, but he changed the capital from Karakorum to Xanadu, and then newly built Khalbagasun (City of Emperors in Mongolian) later renamed as Beijing by Ming dynasty. Khubilai used chinese advisors for the administrative policies for Han ethnic regions, but he never intended to promote them to the rank of Imperial High Class. Khubilai used talents from many different ethnicities for the Imperial service. But Khubilai has been never accepted by the Chagataid, Ogeteid successors and Jochid successors were mostly neutral. Khubilai's loyal ally was his other brother Hulegu (Toluid) who was just conquered Middle east and founded his Ilkhanate dynasty.

By the year 1337 there were 4 distinct successor empires
1. Great Mongol /Dai Yuan/ covering whole East Asia. Great Mongol Empire was 1361-1368, and Northern Yuan 1369-1380, Great Mongol empire 1380-1634 (All former Yuan territories except China Proper and Korea), Khanates of Khalkha Mongol 1634-1923 (Modern day Mongolia, Tuva, Buriat, Altai), Federation of Four Oirats and Dzhungarian kingdom 1400-1757 (Modern day Central Asia and Xingjian, Tibet).

2. Golden Horde covering whole Russia and West of Urals, was 1241-1480. It later incorporated onto Russian Czardom until 1800s.

3. Chagataids covering Central Asia 1230-1500. Chagataids were known for their very cultivated palaces and most fearful era began with a mongol military chief Timur /Tamerlan/ in the late 1300s until 1405. Chagataid successor state was Mughals /Indianized name of Mongols or Moghols/ continued the realm in the Indian sub-continent until 1850s.

4. Ilkhanates covering Middle East, Caucasus, Anatolia, 1258-1400. Late Ilkhanates were later incorporated into Timur's new dynasty.


I am from Mongolia and i hope my favorite EU game and its developers will consider the Great Mongolian History who changed the Eurasia.
I have great respect for Han chinese civilization and i admire Tang, Song, Ming dynasties and Modern China. But let's be clear, Yuan was a Mongol dynasty, Qing was a Manchu dynasty.

Thank you EU team. I'll buy EU5 as i bought EUIV together with all the DLCs.

This is a meaningless opposition. The Yuan Dynasty simultaneously belonged to both Mongolia and China. In its administrative systems for governing Chinese territory, the Yuan Dynasty was highly Sinicized. Yuan clothing was influenced by Chinese styles and gradually moved toward Sinicization. The Phags-pa script created by the Yuan Dynasty was abandoned within decades, with Chinese characters reinstated for all administrative purposes.

This also includes the origin of the dynasty's name - "Yuan" comes from the Book of Songs ("Great indeed is the Primal Energy" - 大哉乾元). This naming convention even influenced the Ming Dynasty's name, since the following line in the same poem reads: "The Great Brightness [Ming] marks the beginning and the end" (大明终始).