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Tinto Talks #9 - 24th of April 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, this is the 9th of its kind, where we talk about our very secret game using the codename Project Caesar. And today we continue with the 3rd of the 4 talks we have now about the economy systems of the game. So lets start..

Constructions
In the previous development diary, we mentioned constructions and how you needed lumber for expanding the mines. In this game, almost all constructions require different materials to progress, and if that material is not available in the local market, then that construction is stalled until the material is available. This includes things like road building, shipbuilding, recruiting regiments, building buildings, or expanding R.G.O’s.

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Not sure why you want another monastery?

For example, building a light ship in the Age of Renaissance requires Naval Supplies, Lumber, Weaponry, Copper, Tin, and Metalworks, while moving your capital requires Paper, Books, Stone, Lumber, Marble, and gold.


Buildings
Buildings are rather important in Project Caesar. There are hundreds of different types of buildings, some can only be built in rural locations, and some require a town or city. Some can only be built in ports, and some can only be built in other countries. Some you can only build when there is no owner of a location. Lots of buildings are unique to cultures, regions, religions, or even to specific tags.

Some buildings can only have 1 level, some have a fixed cap, and some have a cap that scales with the population or development, and so on.

Buildings can also be categorized into three different categories: buildings that can produce goods, buildings that only give effects, and buildings that can only be built by the estates. Those pure estates usually have a drawback to them as well, and it's not easy to remove them

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Definitely not something we are all that keen on having in here.. it does increase demands for some goods though..

So what about producing buildings then? This is where the truly fun parts of the economy start. Project Caesar has a large amount of different goods. We currently have about 70 different ones that have different needs, some are needed for the military, some are needed solely by pops, some are needed for buildings, and so on.

Producing Buildings in towns and cities go from guilds and workshops to manufactories and mills at the of the game. These include everything from Paper Makers Guilds to Foundries. A producing building outputs one or more types of goods.

Finally, we have buildings that are purely giving an effect. These include Granaries that increase how much food you can store, libraries that increase literacy, different types of forts, buildings that train manpower, port buildings to help with shipbuilding, and much more.

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Some claim you can build Stockades of wood, but we trust only stone!

Almost all buildings though, have a production method, which impacts how they work.

Production methods
All buildings have at least one production method slot with one production method, but many have different methods in each slot, and there are plenty of buildings with multiple production method slots.

What is a production method then?
A production method is a list of goods that are required for a building to function. There are two categories of production methods, those that produce something and those that do not.
As an example, a Castle does not produce any goods, but it still requires Stone, Metalworks, Weaponry, and Tar to function, and if it does not get those goods, then the Castle will not function properly. The effectiveness of a building is based on the lowest available percentage of goods present, and it will only purchase and use required materials in that percentage required. If the market cannot supply enough resources, then it will not work.

The output of the producing building is also scaled by the percentage mentioned above.

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There are a few options here, but only wood pulp would be profitable here, probably because of the great supply of lumber in this market..

And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable. The UI also allows for macro decisions regarding production methods

Other important aspects
Every building requires employed pops to function as well, and those that require “upper class” pops like burghers, clergy, and nobles, also increase the potential for them in the location, making pops slowly promoted. This can be slightly awkward as powerful nobles or clergy construct more buildings that make them more numerous and powerful.


Producing buildings that are not profitable will be closed, and pops will work in other buildings, however, you can always subsidize a building if you require the goods or other benefits it gives.

Speaking of profit. The profit of a building is added to the Tax Base of a location, split among the power of the population in the location.

You can always close and open a building, if you want to manipulate prices, or if you want your pops to work with other things, and you don’t want to destroy a building permanently.



We mentioned last week about different ways to get raw materials, and one way to get it, besides trade, is through a set of rural buildings. These include Lumber Mills that you can build in any wood or forest location to produce lumber, sheep farms, stone quarries, and many more.

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Yeah, this requires some input.. Might be worth it..


There are stockpiles of goods, but those are in the market. There are buildings you can build that increase the amount they can store, as if you do not have the goods required for a building, unit, or construction, those will not function.

Speaking of markets, that is something we will talk about more next week when we delve deep into the trade system.
 
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you should have ended your message at " i am out"
Because based on your badges that doesnt exist we dont even know if you did buy or just pirate the previous games you mentioned anyway so as far things go its not a loss if you just nope this game .
if you are not going to make a constructive comment then you are of no use here because thats what we do , we read , we ask , we propose.
also your justifications to hate it are baseless and impulsive because such mechanics did succeed in other games such as eu3 and vic2 and they certainly weren't the cause of the issues vic 3 and imperator had.
He is allowed to not like those and say it, that's also the point of the forum. It's constructive to inform the dev that not everyone likes the idea of pop, it's not like he was saying it in a disrespectful way or several times

Also I don't see how badge are relevant because it can totally not have bothered to link account with steam
 
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You mentioned previously that there are no building slot, so what are the restrictions to how many building can be built and what are the requirements to build more buildings?
I guess is the total population of a location. Buildings require pops as seen in the images.

Edit: And food, less people in the fields working the buildings produce less food for the location, and importing food may be costly.
 
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I'm slightly worried about a building system where a Catholic ruler doesn't want his villages to be building parish churches.

Getting annoyed that there are too many abbeys and monasteries, yes, that makes sense. But that's an entirely different thing from local churches being a problem.
 
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Special rules of where it can be built.

the "tier" icons is the placeholder for rural, city and town.
Thanks for explaining. I see, but I guess buildings do have some sort of tiers, right? For example, if government type changes such as from tribal to monarchy, a tribal fortress would or could be converted into a castle by costing certain goods. Or this change is represented by the change in production methods?
 
if portugal has marshes, why not?
What about times when Austria or Burgundy controlled Netherlands? Will they be able to build polders? What if I as Burgundy integrate dutch PUs and defend succession crisis and dutch revolt? Does it lock polders from me? Can dutch nobles build them instead of the countries?
 
Will be there buildings with multiple good outputs?

Victoria 3 has this, and stuff can get wildly unbalanced, if you have tiny isolationist market, or when you have big extremely rich market.
That is one of goods ends being bought way more than other one.
In medium wealth and size markets you can cope by exporting (importing) less (more) demanded good.
You also end up with one state where it has building on lowest base but highest refinement production method.
For example you can choose that only factories located in capital will make porcelain and luxury clothes/furniture in addition to glass, clothes or furniture.

I'm pretty sure that Victoria 3 added refinement goods purely for performance reason: you have less building pop fragmentation - Vicky 3 pops are defined by building, profession, state, culture and religion.
Trade would work better up to some point, if it wasn't so restricted (fixed limits on ports), and if AI developed economy like player.
 
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Any chance there could be a diversification between different types of horses? For example, large warhorses were prized possessions of nobility and soldiery and peasants wouldn’t be allowed to possess them in some places in Western Europe due to the rarity and potential they had to aid in uprisings. Meanwhile smaller horses were much easier to breed and would be used as stock animals more commonly. Potentially you could even have an east/west divide on Eurasia as the Asian breeds especially on the steppes were smaller than their European counterparts which was of strategic advantage to the mobility focused warfare of the steppe nomads. Anyways, I think that could be an interesting application of the goods. I don’t know exactly how the PMs work obviously, but if they work similar to vic3 then perhaps a way to reflect this would be similar to how you can produce luxury/advanced goods but at the cost of cheaper/less advanced goods like with the motor workshops/glass mills/textile factories/furniture factories all work. ie. A horse breeder/guild focusing on trying to breed larger and larger horses could produce few larger horses, by only breeding the largest of their current generation. But, the state would purchase them for a higher price per animal as they can be used for stronger/faster cavalry units. Anyway just a spitball/suggestion if it’s not too late to implement something like that, I think it could be an addition that would help integrate the peacetime experience with the buildup/planning of war.
Or, and thinking outside the box here.

You could have a stockpile of horses in the beginning, depending on your culture/terrain, and with a horsebreeder you could use that stockpile to breed more horses of that variety, reflected in the production methods.
 
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This is not an airport. You do not need to announce your departure.
The guy says he doesn't like the focus and mechanics of the game, why are you going my-mom-on-Facebook on him
 
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JOHAN AL GAIB!

But seriously, this looks like it may be the most ambitious PDX game in a long time, as far as what it is attempting to do on launch. If this is as good as it looks from the DDs, it’s going to be the best PDX simulation game yet. The simulation-lovers like myself will ditch Wizz and Vic3 and come back to daddy Johan and EUV
 
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In a post that's sure to be negatively received -- I'm out.

I really detest Victoria 3 and I'm pretty meh on Imperator Rome, though it has some nice features, such as the pseudo-tactical warfare. EU5 appears to be the bastard child of both. I don't like pop management. I don't like Vic 3 economic simulations. Thus, I'm noping out of "Project Caesar," though I do appreciate the warnings from the Tinto team not to buy it.
This is not meant as a personal attack at all, and I could have replied to several other people in this thread that posted similar sentiments, but I am truly interested in discussing this: what would you have wanted this game to be?
Another map painter without any relevant peacetime activity that is basically about optimizing the speed of your conquests and where you effectively have won after half of the timespan and can decide to push on in order to complete an achievement/a personal objective/a mission tree/world conquest although it has basically become a chore at that point? Where the countries that are supposed to be the focus of the game (the tier 1 countries like France, Ottomans, England, Castile, Austria) are the least interesting to play because they are so easy and victory comes even more quickly?
Of course, I am exaggerating my criticism here. I love EU4, it is by far the game that I have played the most and the one I always come back to. While it is true that the game becomes a chore at some point if you don't quit, the first decades and the first century of a playthrough still are a more entertaining experience, in my opinion, than any other game, period.
My question is: if you don't want more internal management, a more intricate economic simulation and more peacetime activity, how should EU4 be improved in a meaningful way?
I think that, as a conquest-based map painter, the only thing EU4 might truly be missing is an even more competitive AI - and of course, nothing prevents people from continuing to play EU4 if they prefer that to whatever Project Caesar might turn out to be.
 
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2900 hours on EU4, still mad at the abuse of acronyms in EU4 forums!
By the looks of it RGO is likely to be an in game acronym in project Caesar though, as it has been in Vic 1 and 2. I'm not even sure Vic 2 tells the player what it stands for. In most cases the UI just says RGO.
 
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I'm excited for this game, and looking forward, but I can't avoid to think that is losing that EU4 style for more of a Vic/ Imp way.
Honestly, I know this is just the bared bones of the product, but I can't avoid to think is to different than eu4 ( which don't have to be bad) just don't want another Vic3.

But again, this is just the bones, so looking forward to see it complete.

Thank you for the Tinto Talks!