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Tinto Talks #9 - 24th of April 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, this is the 9th of its kind, where we talk about our very secret game using the codename Project Caesar. And today we continue with the 3rd of the 4 talks we have now about the economy systems of the game. So lets start..

Constructions
In the previous development diary, we mentioned constructions and how you needed lumber for expanding the mines. In this game, almost all constructions require different materials to progress, and if that material is not available in the local market, then that construction is stalled until the material is available. This includes things like road building, shipbuilding, recruiting regiments, building buildings, or expanding R.G.O’s.

nlnBA02bZrw0bZsQH2GVQ0NpqxwwqiqgAoGW8JE_z9_MPDb8uJqXKLR14woyynDUPeon8s17kdwhKN6yq8-GRi6XL_lOdSAmcPRHzWI7Qv9MeyWuCtCwWDEasEuPdXrRAxv6m6DljsMhYyDNtxpuGy4

Not sure why you want another monastery?

For example, building a light ship in the Age of Renaissance requires Naval Supplies, Lumber, Weaponry, Copper, Tin, and Metalworks, while moving your capital requires Paper, Books, Stone, Lumber, Marble, and gold.


Buildings
Buildings are rather important in Project Caesar. There are hundreds of different types of buildings, some can only be built in rural locations, and some require a town or city. Some can only be built in ports, and some can only be built in other countries. Some you can only build when there is no owner of a location. Lots of buildings are unique to cultures, regions, religions, or even to specific tags.

Some buildings can only have 1 level, some have a fixed cap, and some have a cap that scales with the population or development, and so on.

Buildings can also be categorized into three different categories: buildings that can produce goods, buildings that only give effects, and buildings that can only be built by the estates. Those pure estates usually have a drawback to them as well, and it's not easy to remove them

hcdHZO0m2kTU61RRPUWubpP98X7Mo0HI_XzTVd7mvmsaX9ntlTsCF_rFfmIErrOEjhfzQDEo1CedZ-iJCDHEA5tPnh01pr0NT0t5RPss-BWKJKDJW_i-doFBMmwDQseSu1uzF2CeDQ2SIWIvBtdNtz4

Definitely not something we are all that keen on having in here.. it does increase demands for some goods though..

So what about producing buildings then? This is where the truly fun parts of the economy start. Project Caesar has a large amount of different goods. We currently have about 70 different ones that have different needs, some are needed for the military, some are needed solely by pops, some are needed for buildings, and so on.

Producing Buildings in towns and cities go from guilds and workshops to manufactories and mills at the of the game. These include everything from Paper Makers Guilds to Foundries. A producing building outputs one or more types of goods.

Finally, we have buildings that are purely giving an effect. These include Granaries that increase how much food you can store, libraries that increase literacy, different types of forts, buildings that train manpower, port buildings to help with shipbuilding, and much more.

AQk7XaO7abty_VVuMxlVqH48WY7zk666GbEW-VD7PvyV9C3CSPJuaOyMm46XojJU1OOW-kLgVbzcg7dx_5WpNX-d0nujGC_PuifwF0hp3fc27nPzkLl_6xKOpBT9ABoFl5XREaDDVLOm053eUX8QpXw

Some claim you can build Stockades of wood, but we trust only stone!

Almost all buildings though, have a production method, which impacts how they work.

Production methods
All buildings have at least one production method slot with one production method, but many have different methods in each slot, and there are plenty of buildings with multiple production method slots.

What is a production method then?
A production method is a list of goods that are required for a building to function. There are two categories of production methods, those that produce something and those that do not.
As an example, a Castle does not produce any goods, but it still requires Stone, Metalworks, Weaponry, and Tar to function, and if it does not get those goods, then the Castle will not function properly. The effectiveness of a building is based on the lowest available percentage of goods present, and it will only purchase and use required materials in that percentage required. If the market cannot supply enough resources, then it will not work.

The output of the producing building is also scaled by the percentage mentioned above.

h_Uu_FZ1_xAAsG_36S0nz-4DEdR_gFQ7Jzd5wKCIMFcUW5YfQvEhN58LNAedWFUIXUb8OBl3_5U-tJD8w01KS4lHWkVdV1lQXn83jFDnEw-Cjc8nx16PRkhro6XrR79VqshTn8rvqc7zdcOc26VwRws

There are a few options here, but only wood pulp would be profitable here, probably because of the great supply of lumber in this market..

And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable. The UI also allows for macro decisions regarding production methods

Other important aspects
Every building requires employed pops to function as well, and those that require “upper class” pops like burghers, clergy, and nobles, also increase the potential for them in the location, making pops slowly promoted. This can be slightly awkward as powerful nobles or clergy construct more buildings that make them more numerous and powerful.


Producing buildings that are not profitable will be closed, and pops will work in other buildings, however, you can always subsidize a building if you require the goods or other benefits it gives.

Speaking of profit. The profit of a building is added to the Tax Base of a location, split among the power of the population in the location.

You can always close and open a building, if you want to manipulate prices, or if you want your pops to work with other things, and you don’t want to destroy a building permanently.



We mentioned last week about different ways to get raw materials, and one way to get it, besides trade, is through a set of rural buildings. These include Lumber Mills that you can build in any wood or forest location to produce lumber, sheep farms, stone quarries, and many more.

7IdmnyGvDXdUqUelM-C2IsaoWecdW31FC7Q1GQgsLgn_esuLEfu8DIgmnntSusTIYkK9BGB8-CQdguA5q_oWzJWvE-85kqNC-yWSym1tC3haBqiZkg_lXMTXUJM9NcKqNVKSETizdqfmKW2bj4-auIo

Yeah, this requires some input.. Might be worth it..


There are stockpiles of goods, but those are in the market. There are buildings you can build that increase the amount they can store, as if you do not have the goods required for a building, unit, or construction, those will not function.

Speaking of markets, that is something we will talk about more next week when we delve deep into the trade system.
 
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I just hope dealing with production methods isn't tedious. Will it be very unoptimal to automate the majority?

Primarily we use production methods to differentiate inputs, but also to improve efficiency and volume as the technology progresses. I'd say its 95-99% good enough to have it on automatic for many people. I suspect people at this forum are more likely to want it to be manually.

Of course, we have macro changing PM's, using filters on which buildings are affected, including filters like this..

1713965182546.png
 
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So much info this TT, where to begin?

We have some more confirmed goods:
In addition to stone and lumber previously mentioned, theres: glass, naval supplies, weaponry, copper, tin, "metalworks", paper, books, marble, gold, cloth/fabric, tar, leather, "fiber", and clay.

Way more than I expected! Looking like Project Caesar will have more resources than any paradox game ever made.

Buildings mentioned:
Monestary, Parish Church, Granary, Castle, "Papermakers Guild", Stone Quarry, Lumber Mills, Sheep Farms, Foundries

We've also confirmed that building ships will take resources, I can guess that the same is true for land units. What's more, this is an "Age of Renaissance" ship, seeming to imply that ship technology will change with ages. That worries me a little, I want to know more about how technology and warfare work in the game before making a final judgement.

One closing thought, are there too many goods? If each good needs a building, and there's that many goods, and that many locations to build buildings, then that's a level of detail that's insanely hard to keep track of. I expect good automation, but then if it's just always going to be automated then what's the point of the complexity?
 
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@Johan

Will deforestation be a thing? A lot of Europe was on the verge of deforestation by the end of the 15th century. Beavers were wiped out in Russia which made a Canada a popular place for fur traders.
 
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During the 100 years war english armies went all over France razing and sacking, not stopped by magical barriers. :(
Yes, early on when we're still in the middle ages, there wouldn't be anything resembling fronts and armies could just sack any place within reach, but in later centuries, this changed.
I think there's good potential for the game to represent this change with improved fort buildings.
 
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So can you just use wood to mass produce paper right from the start? Sure, there was some paper making that used what can be called wood (like bamboo in China or some Europeans doing it in the 18th century), but large scale paper production from wood wasn't a thing before 1840. Would be very strange to have that available as an option in the 14th century.
Maybe different production methods are unlocked with tech
 
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I hope that a dynamic production system will allow the game to simulate the reasons why europe got ahead such as necessity to look for more markets.
Of course Europe will be important as well we are not talking about this. But in Eu4 there was a technology system and even if you reached maximum as you can, you werent be able to compete with europe. So what were technology for except making somethings more cheap?
 
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"If the market cannot supply enough resources, then it will not work." Is this a percentage-based modifier for production buildings? Eg: I only have 90% of the wood needed for a paper mill to function, therefore it will be 90% efficient. How does it work for forts? Is it a negative modifier to defensiveness or will it just not work at all and can be sieged down in a month?

it impacts the garrison levels and other scaleable values..

fortlevel cant not scale though.
 
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So basically this game adapts the Civ4 mods approach for the buildings, you can find it in C2C, RI and Pie's Ancient Europe and the last one also has an interesting cultivation mechanics which makes me wonder:

Are we going to be able to change the basic resources in provinces, for example introducing potatoes or rice in Europe after some exploration and colonization?
 
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Hopefully production methods will change on their own, I don't want to play a game where I have to micromanage the finances of hundreds of buildings.

click the automation button, and its fine enough
 
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Yes, early on when we're still in the middle ages, there wouldn't be anything resembling fronts and armies could just sack any place within reach, but in later centuries, this changed.
I think there's good potential for the game to represent this change with improved fort buildings.
Maybe have forts at lower tech levels not exert zones of control?
 
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Will the price of materials depend on the local supply and the location? Or will each material have the same price over the whole world?

We will talk about trade and markets next week.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, this is the 9th of its kind, where we talk about our very secret game using the codename Project Caesar. And today we continue with the 3rd of the 4 talks we have now about the economy systems of the game. So lets start..

Constructions
In the previous development diary, we mentioned constructions and how you needed lumber for expanding the mines. In this game, almost all constructions require different materials to progress, and if that material is not available in the local market, then that construction is stalled until the material is available. This includes things like road building, shipbuilding, recruiting regiments, building buildings, or expanding R.G.O’s.

nlnBA02bZrw0bZsQH2GVQ0NpqxwwqiqgAoGW8JE_z9_MPDb8uJqXKLR14woyynDUPeon8s17kdwhKN6yq8-GRi6XL_lOdSAmcPRHzWI7Qv9MeyWuCtCwWDEasEuPdXrRAxv6m6DljsMhYyDNtxpuGy4

Not sure why you want another monastery?

For example, building a light ship in the Age of Renaissance requires Naval Supplies, Lumber, Weaponry, Copper, Tin, and Metalworks, while moving your capital requires Paper, Books, Stone, Lumber, Marble, and gold.


Buildings
Buildings are rather important in Project Caesar. There are hundreds of different types of buildings, some can only be built in rural locations, and some require a town or city. Some can only be built in ports, and some can only be built in other countries. Some you can only build when there is no owner of a location. Lots of buildings are unique to cultures, regions, religions, or even to specific tags.

Some buildings can only have 1 level, some have a fixed cap, and some have a cap that scales with the population or development, and so on.

Buildings can also be categorized into three different categories: buildings that can produce goods, buildings that only give effects, and buildings that can only be built by the estates. Those pure estates usually have a drawback to them as well, and it's not easy to remove them

hcdHZO0m2kTU61RRPUWubpP98X7Mo0HI_XzTVd7mvmsaX9ntlTsCF_rFfmIErrOEjhfzQDEo1CedZ-iJCDHEA5tPnh01pr0NT0t5RPss-BWKJKDJW_i-doFBMmwDQseSu1uzF2CeDQ2SIWIvBtdNtz4

Definitely not something we are all that keen on having in here.. it does increase demands for some goods though..

So what about producing buildings then? This is where the truly fun parts of the economy start. Project Caesar has a large amount of different goods. We currently have about 70 different ones that have different needs, some are needed for the military, some are needed solely by pops, some are needed for buildings, and so on.

Producing Buildings in towns and cities go from guilds and workshops to manufactories and mills at the of the game. These include everything from Paper Makers Guilds to Foundries. A producing building outputs one or more types of goods.

Finally, we have buildings that are purely giving an effect. These include Granaries that increase how much food you can store, libraries that increase literacy, different types of forts, buildings that train manpower, port buildings to help with shipbuilding, and much more.

AQk7XaO7abty_VVuMxlVqH48WY7zk666GbEW-VD7PvyV9C3CSPJuaOyMm46XojJU1OOW-kLgVbzcg7dx_5WpNX-d0nujGC_PuifwF0hp3fc27nPzkLl_6xKOpBT9ABoFl5XREaDDVLOm053eUX8QpXw

Some claim you can build Stockades of wood, but we trust only stone!

Almost all buildings though, have a production method, which impacts how they work.

Production methods
All buildings have at least one production method slot with one production method, but many have different methods in each slot, and there are plenty of buildings with multiple production method slots.

What is a production method then?
A production method is a list of goods that are required for a building to function. There are two categories of production methods, those that produce something and those that do not.
As an example, a Castle does not produce any goods, but it still requires Stone, Metalworks, Weaponry, and Tar to function, and if it does not get those goods, then the Castle will not function properly. The effectiveness of a building is based on the lowest available percentage of goods present, and it will only purchase and use required materials in that percentage required. If the market cannot supply enough resources, then it will not work.

The output of the producing building is also scaled by the percentage mentioned above.

h_Uu_FZ1_xAAsG_36S0nz-4DEdR_gFQ7Jzd5wKCIMFcUW5YfQvEhN58LNAedWFUIXUb8OBl3_5U-tJD8w01KS4lHWkVdV1lQXn83jFDnEw-Cjc8nx16PRkhro6XrR79VqshTn8rvqc7zdcOc26VwRws

There are a few options here, but only wood pulp would be profitable here, probably because of the great supply of lumber in this market..

And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable. The UI also allows for macro decisions regarding production methods

Other important aspects
Every building requires employed pops to function as well, and those that require “upper class” pops like burghers, clergy, and nobles, also increase the potential for them in the location, making pops slowly promoted. This can be slightly awkward as powerful nobles or clergy construct more buildings that make them more numerous and powerful.


Producing buildings that are not profitable will be closed, and pops will work in other buildings, however, you can always subsidize a building if you require the goods or other benefits it gives.

Speaking of profit. The profit of a building is added to the Tax Base of a location, split among the power of the population in the location.

You can always close and open a building, if you want to manipulate prices, or if you want your pops to work with other things, and you don’t want to destroy a building permanently.



We mentioned last week about different ways to get raw materials, and one way to get it, besides trade, is through a set of rural buildings. These include Lumber Mills that you can build in any wood or forest location to produce lumber, sheep farms, stone quarries, and many more.

7IdmnyGvDXdUqUelM-C2IsaoWecdW31FC7Q1GQgsLgn_esuLEfu8DIgmnntSusTIYkK9BGB8-CQdguA5q_oWzJWvE-85kqNC-yWSym1tC3haBqiZkg_lXMTXUJM9NcKqNVKSETizdqfmKW2bj4-auIo

Yeah, this requires some input.. Might be worth it..


There are stockpiles of goods, but those are in the market. There are buildings you can build that increase the amount they can store, as if you do not have the goods required for a building, unit, or construction, those will not function.

Speaking of markets, that is something we will talk about more next week when we delve deep into the trade system.
63FDB0F078E925A9FCEA2AD8E9ED33D4.jpg
 
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