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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #11 - Employment and Qualifications

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Happy Thursday and welcome to another deep-dive into the guts of Victoria 3’s economic machinery. This week we will be talking about Pop Professions, specifically how and why Pops change Profession. While this is an automatic process, the mechanics of it is still crucial knowledge to keep in the back of your head when building your society. Perhaps you want to ensure the population in one of your states are able to take on Machinist jobs before embarking on a rapid industrialization project there, or perhaps you want to ensure you don’t accidentally enable too much social mobility in a country already prone to uprisings against their true and lawful King.

First, a quick recap. In the Pops dev diary we learned that all Pops have a Profession, which determines their social strata and influences a number of things like wages, political strength, and Interest Group affiliations. In the Buildings dev diary we learned that buildings need Pops of specific Professions to work there in order for them to produce their intended effects on the economy and society. Finally, in the Production Methods dev diary we learned that different Production Methods change the number of Profession positions available in a building. So how do Pops get assigned to these spots?

Our approach here differs a bit from previous games. Victoria 1 and 2 has the concept of a “Pop Type”, a fundamental property of Pops in those games that defines most aspects of their existence - what function they perform in society, what goods they need to survive vs. what goods they desire, what ideologies they espouse, etcetera. Pops in Victoria 2 autonomously change into other types over time depending on their finances and the various needs and aspects of the country. Providing access to luxury goods in your country permits Pops to promote more easily. Generally speaking, higher-tier Pops will provide better bonuses for your country as different Pop Types perform different functions. By manufacturing or importing special goods and educating your population you would turn your simple, backwards Pops into advanced, progressive types in ideal ratios, which maximizes these bonuses to increase your competitive advantage.

Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
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Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
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The latter approach gives the player more control over where these job opportunities are created, and combined with Production Methods cause demographic shifts to have stronger, more localized effects that are easier to predict and understand. It’s also more flexible, permitting the same Profession to cause different effects in different Buildings given different Production Methods. So in Victoria 3 higher-paid Pops don’t by their very nature perform a more valuable societal function than lower-paid Pops - rather, each acts as a crucial part of a Production Method’s ‘recipe’. Each of these roles require the others to be effective - without enough Laborers to shovel coal the engines the Machinists maintain stay dormant, and without seamstresses to work the sewing machines the Shopkeepers don’t have any clothes to sell.

Buildings adjust their wages over time in order to achieve full employment with minimal wage costs. As employment increases, so does the Throughput - the degree by which the building consumes input goods and produces output goods. By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Employees are hired into available jobs from the pool of Pops that already exist in the state, but unless they’re unemployed these Pops will already have a job somewhere doing something else. Pops can be hired under two conditions: first, they must be offered a measurably higher wage than the wage they’re currently getting from their current employment. Second, unless they already work as the required Profession in another building, they must also meet the Qualifications of that Profession to change into it.

These Steel Mills don’t pay as well as the Arms Industries, but they do seem to offer better terms than the Textile Mills and resource industries in the same state - with the notable exception of Fishing Wharves, who also need Machinists to service their trawlers.
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Wages are set by individual buildings in response to market conditions. A building that is losing money will decrease wages until it’s back in the black. A building that has open jobs it can’t seem to fill will raise wages until it either fills the necessary positions or runs out of excess profits. As a result, different buildings in the same state will compete for the available workforce. What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.

A Pop’s Qualifications measure how many of its workforce qualify for certain Professions, and updates monthly depending on how well their current properties match up to the expectations of the Profession in question. For example, at least a basic education level is required to become a Machinist while a much higher one is required to become an Engineer. Conversely, the ability to become an Aristocrat is less about education and more about social class and wealth. Buildings won’t hire Pops who don’t meet the Qualifications for the Profession in question.

These 981 Machinists qualify to become Engineers at a rate of 4.08 per month. Their Literacy is nothing to write home about but they at least meet the cut-off of 20%, aren’t starving to death, and benefit substantially from already working in an adjacent field. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
machinist-quals.PNG

If some Paper Mills required more Engineers and this Pop was being considered, only the amount of qualified Engineers they’ve accumulated so far could be hired. Currently that is only 85 (not shown). If those 85 were all hired, this Pop would then end up with only 896 members left in the workforce of which 0 now qualify to become Engineers. Since all recently hired Engineers used to be Machinists, all 85 retain their Machinist Qualifications. Furthermore, if 512 members of this Pop qualified to be Farmers before the hire (52%), of the 85 of them who were newly promoted to Engineers, 44 of these new Engineers are also qualified to become Farmers.

To be considered for a “job” as Aristocrat a Pop must have at least moderate Wealth, and the more Wealth they have the faster they will develop this potential. Unlike many other jobs Literacy is not a requirement for being accepted into the aristocracy, but an education does make it easier. Bureaucrats and Officers have an easier time becoming Aristocrats than other members of society, while Pops who suffer discrimination on account of their culture have a much harder time. Finally, if a Pop does not meet the minimum Wealth requirement, they actually devolve any prior potential for becoming Aristocrats. This means that down-and-out former nobles robbed of their land and forced to go unemployed or (perish the thought) become a wage laborer will - over time - lose their ability to return to their former social class. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
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Like all Pop attributes, Qualifications follow the Pops as they split, merge, move between buildings, migrate, and die. If you had previously developed a lot of potential Bureaucrats in your country but ran into budgetary problems and had to shut down your schools, over time those Pops who have already developed the Qualifications to become Bureaucrats will die off and not be replaced by newly educated ones. If your Capitalists in a given state had been underpaying their local discriminated employees to the degree that nobody gained the Qualifications to take over for them, and then some of those Capitalists move away to operate a newly opened Iron Mine in the next state over, rather than promoting some of the local discriminated Laborers to the newly opened jobs they will simply leave the spots open (and the mines underproducing) until some qualified Capitalists move in from elsewhere to take over.

Qualifications are entirely moddable by simply providing the computational factors that should go into determining how the value develops each month. If you want to make a mod to split up the Clergymen Profession into individual variants for each Religion in the game, you could make the Imam Profession dependent on the Pop being Sunni or Shi’ite. If you wanted Aristocrat Qualification development to be highly dependent on the amount of unproductive Arable Land in the state the Pop lives in, you could do that. An event option or Decision that makes it faster and easier to educate Engineers but harder to educate Officers for the next 10 years? Absolutely.

A breakdown of all Pops in Lower Egypt that qualify to become Engineers. Of course, any openings will be offered to existing Engineers first, and not all of the remaining qualified Pops would actually be interested in the job - though if it was lucrative enough, perhaps some Aristocrats on a failing Subsistence Farm would consider a career change.
potential-engineers.PNG

The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.

In summary, Qualifications is the mechanism by which access to education and your stance on discrimination - in addition to many other factors - impact your ability to expand different parts of your society. It is also the mechanism that sorts Pops logically into the economic (and thereby political) niches you carve out as you expand, ensuring your laws and economic conditions inform the social mobility of Pops based on who they are. It’s quite subtle, and you might not even notice it’s there - until you run into the challenges caused by rapid industrialization, mass migration, conquests, colonization, and other drastic population shifts.

That is all for this week! Next Thursday we will finally get into how all this economic activity translates into revenue streams for you, when Martin presents the mechanics governing the Treasury and national debt.
 
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Factories will still dynamically shift the wage rate they pay out while subsidized, so it still orients itself properly in the dynamic economy. The government is then required to top up that wage to pay the workers at least a "fair" wage, if needed, and to cover any shortfall if materiel costs exceed revenue from sales of produced goods. In return the building maintains as full employment and throughput as Qualifications allow.
How is this "fair" wage calculated? It seems like it has to be enough to potentially pull qualified workers from high-profit industries. But you don't want two subsidised industries to get into a bidding war for labour.
 
This looks lovely, and I have a question. :)

In Victoria 1, we had the ability to forcibly conscript specific pops like farmers, labourers, factory workers, clerks, bureaucrats and such into soldiers. Drafting them meant immediately converting said pops into soldier pops (or officer pops for higher literacy/wealth folks, you could choose), which could then be drafted into military divisions and ships on the map as usual. Very different from Vicky2's oversimplified "click button to instantly gain infantry divisions" mobilization thingy.

We could demobilize the soldiers the same way and turn them into lower class pops, if we didn't want a rebellious state to not have any soldiers and disarm it for example. Was not possible in Vicky2.

It also worked for some non-military professions, for example in a Russia game I could draft my grain farming peasants to work in the coal mines I just opened, i.e. turn them into labourers. It was all micromanage heavy, but only because of the way old UI worked rather than anything else.

So here is my question - will this feature make a return? Can we forcibly conscript pops and convert them into soldiers and officers, especially in authoritarian states that rely a lot on conscription?
 
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Work type icons seem less self-explanatory than in Vic1-2, imo.
The cross icon is one of least problematic though. But monocle and glasses, peasat hat and hayfork seem like nearly the same thing.
Boots for Soldiers are not too distinctive too, everyone wore such boots that time. Maybe a rifle with some gear would do the job better?
And Officer's medal is fine but a bit lacking, maybe there should be something more pointy on edges to show it's military thing?

UPD. And I got an idea why monocle and medal should be replaced - they are like thay're laying on the table, visually compressed by isometry. Maybe my english is not good enough to explain it properly, but they are really out of line with other icons.
 
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Jesus i can see it. You ll need a degree in economics to play this game
Nah mate.

Like, I haven't taken a single Econ class in my life, I can play Vicky 2 just fine, and I'm pretty sure I'll be fine playing Vicky 3.

You will need the kind of brain that finds complex systems interesting, though, if you want your country to do well.
 
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Have to disagree here.
In RSFR/USSR discrimination of "former people" and people of "wrong" "class origin" was mandated legally between 1918 and 1936 and existed in reality much longer.
Between 1924 and 1936 nobles, former officers, former Imperial bureaucrats, former clergy as well as their descendants (even those born after revolution) were legally banned from most leadership/executive positions, commanding positions in military, had no right to elect or to be elected etc., etc.
(the fact during the Empire a son of a peasant could become a general, but in USSR a son of Imperial general could not tells a lot about equality under communist regime). In various forms and questionnaires questions about "class origin" remained until 1960s.

In all totalitarian regimes being noticed as (even potentially) disloyal was cause for limits on employment.
In real life and in modern times loyalty checks are still with us (google "security vetting") as well as bans on professions (google Lustration in post-communist countries or Berufsverbot or Radikalenerlass.

If you want XIX century examples, here they are: Iroclad Oath in USA, conditional pardons for Confederate commanders and politicians in USA, Anti-Jesuits laws in Germany, anti-atheist laws in many countries, Pale of Settlement in Russia, persecution of Christians in Ottoman Empire.

Thus I believe that a discrimination in promotion/acquisition of professions of POPs who have or had professions or religious characteristics that are considered disloyal by the current regime should be represented in game, that puts such great emphasis on evolution of social relations. Especially in regimes that resulted from a revolution.

TL/DR: there was and there is RL discrimination and ban on professions for anyone considered disloyal by the government. Especially in totalitarian states. IMO this should be represented in VIC3.
In addition: in the Soviet Union the disadvantages of origin could be avoided. The son of the "general" was able to work as a worker for a while. Then he delivers again under worker origin. Another question is rather that you could run into political problems in times of the purges. But that is not a question of the institutions.
 
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Work type icons seem less self-explanatory than in Vic1-2, imo.
The cross icon is one of least problematic though. But monocle and glasses, peasat hat and hayfork seem like nearly the same thing.
Boots for Soldiers are not too distinctive too, everyone wore such boots that time. Maybe a rifle with some gear would do the job better?
And Officer's medal is fine but a bit lacking, maybe there should be something more pointy on edges to show it's military thing?

UPD. And I got an idea why monocle and medal should be replaced - they are like thay're laying on the table, visually compressed by isometry. Maybe my english is not good enough to explain it properly, but they are really out of line with other icons.
Not really, the icons seem pretty distinctive to me.

Monocles have always been a symbol of the upper class so fits for aristocracy.
Meanwhile, a simpler pair of glasses is a signifier of how many clerks worked long hours reading small print or as the low rung in the administrative ladder poring over papers. Even more iconic when it's a round-framed almost pince nez pair like the ones for the icon.
The straw hat and pitchfork are both lower class farmer symbols, true, but both Farmers and Peasants are lower class farming POPs so you're always going to have similar icons for both of them. The pitchfork works better for the Farmer since it's more evocative of grain farming, while the straw hat is more symbolic of any lower class agricultural work.
Boots, specifically the Wellington or Hessian boots that these appear to be, are iconic infantry boots from the period so they fit fine. They also are a good way to distinguish the more "boots on the ground" grunt soldiers from officers that generic military equipment wouldn't really do.

As for the items looking like they're lying on a table, so does most of the other icons. The graduation cap, the inkwell, the top hat, the straw hat, the cash register, and the shackle all look like they're lying on a table. So there's no inconsistency or anything really weird there.
 
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2. Aristocrats and Capitalists are required and they are required proportionally to the other Professions in the building. While that is arguably unrealistic - how many Aristocrats do you really need to own the land for people to work it productively, after all - but there's unfortunate side effects from not doing things this way, such as Farms full of Laborers but no Aristocrats to siphon off the profits being able to pay astronomic wages, and then when some Aristocrats move in and take over the land the building is suddenly deep in the red because the Aristocrats need to get paid their share. This then leads to metas where the factors that develop Qualifications for Aristocrats are artificially throttled to ensure simple Farms provide amazing wages without having to engage in any form of ownership reform. Disproportionality between Professions tend to throw the whole balance off, so we avoid it like the plague. Regarding Capitalist investments, it helps to think of a building as an industrial sector, not a single factory. Capitalists invest in expanding the manufacturing industry, which creates opportunities for other companies to move in and start businesses, which leads to more Capitalists.
Thanks for the replies!

I guess I missed (failed to remember) the point that the number of employees is coupled in a proportional way, i.e. you need to go from 1x capitalist, 2x engineer, 4x machinist to 2x capitalist, 4x engineer and 8x machinist. I think that makes sense if you view it through the lens of the presence of a capitalist being needed to found a new small business that can then employ the other professions. In general this coupling is sensible because you cannot compensate the absense of one profession with an abundance of the others.

However, I am unclear how that relates to the actual funds required to create that industry (i.e. "build" that "building"). I assume this will be a one time action that costs money, which may or may not come from an investment pool filled by contributions from capitalists. My assumption was that the capitalists enter the "business" via this process.

This makes it so that the role of capitalists as the group that provides capital and founds businesses is represented in two ways: 1) their money goes in the investment pool to "create" a new industry and 2) existing buildings "employ" additional capitalists which essentially expands the corresponding industry. This feels a bit dissonant because there are two separate game interactions that represent the same fundamental economic process (capital being allocated to a business), especially because one seems to involve their actual money and the other doesn't.

Of course, a lot of this is based on assumptions in how investment pools etc. work, so looking forward to learning more about that part.

I also think it's funny that one of the downsides of realising that aristocrats aren't actually needed to run farms is that then there aren't any aristocrats to siphon off the money. Lenin couldn't have said it any better.
 
So wait.. pop icons have been replaced by hats? or will they still have portraits?
Pops themselves have very nice portraits when you select them, as you can see in DD#1. The icons are specifically representing their jobs/qualifications.

Jesus i can see it. You ll need a degree in economics to play this game i understand nothing of all this.
For the most part, as long as you're making sensible decisions things should work themselves out.

For instance, if you conquer a backwater province with low education, you probably shouldn't build a ton of factories there. If you're discriminating against a culture, you probably won't see many aristocrats or officers from it. If there's a labor shortage people will generally sort themselves out in a reasonable manner. If you build more schools, you can support more factories later on. Etc.

If you need more detail - your middle-of-the-road state already supports some factories, but does it have enough workers for one more? - you can check the qualifications tooltips to see a) whether you have enough people and b) what factors you should increase if you want more.

That's all the detail you need to worry about unless you're super-optimizing your game or modding it.
 
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Conversely, a shopkeeper whose livelihood is mainly selling locally produced goods probably doesn't really care about tariffs, and certainly doesn't have the reason to oppose them that a rich big-city importer does. If I'm a clothier selling goods from the factory down the street vs. the latest Parisian fashions I probably have different views on the importance of free trade.
As PoPs are attracted to multiple interest groups isn't this already represented?
 
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In addition: in the Soviet Union the disadvantages of origin could be avoided. The son of the "general" was able to work as a worker for a while. Then he delivers again under worker origin. Another question is rather that you could run into political problems in times of the purges. But that is not a question of the institutions.
You could, but it was not easy.
For example: between 1932 and 1941 you had to have a passport to live and work in any large city. But if you were one of those with limited political rights you were not entitled to passport. Then in passports type of 1953 there was a record of your "social origin" - basically your proffession. Also passports could contain notes of previous convictions and limitations on residence rights (like being not permitted to live within 101 km radius from certain cities).
 
And is a labor movement that negotiates for higher wages in the game?
I hope it is. Trying to imagine mechanics but with varying degrees of worker organization, it might be solvable by just changing the division of wages between capitalist/aristocrats and the working class professions within if the system would support stuff like that.

Of course this would likely result in agitation by those wealthy pops and create desire to force political change etc.
 
I am wondering if it really makes sense to look for a more general symbol for clergy than a Christian cross, or if it does, if we have to go even further.

Obviously, using a Christian cross for all clergy is biased towards Christianity, while not all clergy in the game will be Christian. However, the same argument could be made for all professions: all of their symbols are very Eurocentric, and do not make a lot of sense for other cultures. Monocles and top hats and military medals are pretty much meaningless in a Chinese context, for example.

If we assume a Eurocentric perspective of which paraphernalia represent a certain profession, for better or worse, would that not be the same as assuming the Eurocentric perspective that Clergy is represented by a cross because from that perspective clergymen are Christian?

Why can we generalise "monocle means aristocracy", an idea that is rooted in biased European cultural norms, but not "cross means clergy", which is also an idea equally rooted in biased European cultural norms?
 
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"Demotion" as such doesn't happen in this system. What happens is that an underpaid Aristocrat will take any job they qualify for as long as it pays better. So it's more likely that an Aristocrat will take a Machinist job at a very profitable factory than become a Farmer on a pretty humdrum Wheat Farm, and vice versa.
So you mean the Aristocrat pop also gains qualifications to be Machinist or Farmer, while being Aristocrat?
 
I hope it is. Trying to imagine mechanics but with varying degrees of worker organization, it might be solvable by just changing the division of wages between capitalist/aristocrats and the working class professions within if the system would support stuff like that.

Of course this would likely result in agitation by those wealthy pops and create desire to force political change etc.
With the smallest unit of production in the game being an entire industry in a region, the economic model would probably represent Swedish-style sectoral bargaining better than other systems. This did develop during the time period of the game (1906 in Sweden, and even a brief lurch toward it in the USA in 1933).
 
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Trying to imagine mechanics but with varying degrees of worker organization, it might be solvable by just changing the division of wages between capitalist/aristocrats and the working class professions within if the system would support stuff like that.
IIRC there's a setting on factories that determines the ownership structure - whether it's owned solely by the capitalists/aristocrats, evenly by all workers, or somewhere in between. I think that affects dividends rather than wages, but it's a similar principle.
 
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IIRC there's a setting on factories that determines the ownership structure - whether it's owned solely by the capitalists/aristocrats, evenly by all workers, or somewhere in between. I think that affects dividends rather than wages, but it's a similar principle.
This is definitely the case and I look forward to one playthrough of my worker co-ops!

You're probably correct that that means the system itself is still supported. Iachek mentioned that strikes would be a thing too so I am curious to see how it all plays out.
 
In a Lorenz attractor sense, How stable are all these systems ?