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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #11 - Employment and Qualifications

DD11.png


Happy Thursday and welcome to another deep-dive into the guts of Victoria 3’s economic machinery. This week we will be talking about Pop Professions, specifically how and why Pops change Profession. While this is an automatic process, the mechanics of it is still crucial knowledge to keep in the back of your head when building your society. Perhaps you want to ensure the population in one of your states are able to take on Machinist jobs before embarking on a rapid industrialization project there, or perhaps you want to ensure you don’t accidentally enable too much social mobility in a country already prone to uprisings against their true and lawful King.

First, a quick recap. In the Pops dev diary we learned that all Pops have a Profession, which determines their social strata and influences a number of things like wages, political strength, and Interest Group affiliations. In the Buildings dev diary we learned that buildings need Pops of specific Professions to work there in order for them to produce their intended effects on the economy and society. Finally, in the Production Methods dev diary we learned that different Production Methods change the number of Profession positions available in a building. So how do Pops get assigned to these spots?

Our approach here differs a bit from previous games. Victoria 1 and 2 has the concept of a “Pop Type”, a fundamental property of Pops in those games that defines most aspects of their existence - what function they perform in society, what goods they need to survive vs. what goods they desire, what ideologies they espouse, etcetera. Pops in Victoria 2 autonomously change into other types over time depending on their finances and the various needs and aspects of the country. Providing access to luxury goods in your country permits Pops to promote more easily. Generally speaking, higher-tier Pops will provide better bonuses for your country as different Pop Types perform different functions. By manufacturing or importing special goods and educating your population you would turn your simple, backwards Pops into advanced, progressive types in ideal ratios, which maximizes these bonuses to increase your competitive advantage.

Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
poptypes-v2.png

Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
professions-v3.png

The latter approach gives the player more control over where these job opportunities are created, and combined with Production Methods cause demographic shifts to have stronger, more localized effects that are easier to predict and understand. It’s also more flexible, permitting the same Profession to cause different effects in different Buildings given different Production Methods. So in Victoria 3 higher-paid Pops don’t by their very nature perform a more valuable societal function than lower-paid Pops - rather, each acts as a crucial part of a Production Method’s ‘recipe’. Each of these roles require the others to be effective - without enough Laborers to shovel coal the engines the Machinists maintain stay dormant, and without seamstresses to work the sewing machines the Shopkeepers don’t have any clothes to sell.

Buildings adjust their wages over time in order to achieve full employment with minimal wage costs. As employment increases, so does the Throughput - the degree by which the building consumes input goods and produces output goods. By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Employees are hired into available jobs from the pool of Pops that already exist in the state, but unless they’re unemployed these Pops will already have a job somewhere doing something else. Pops can be hired under two conditions: first, they must be offered a measurably higher wage than the wage they’re currently getting from their current employment. Second, unless they already work as the required Profession in another building, they must also meet the Qualifications of that Profession to change into it.

These Steel Mills don’t pay as well as the Arms Industries, but they do seem to offer better terms than the Textile Mills and resource industries in the same state - with the notable exception of Fishing Wharves, who also need Machinists to service their trawlers.
steel-mills-hiring.PNG

Wages are set by individual buildings in response to market conditions. A building that is losing money will decrease wages until it’s back in the black. A building that has open jobs it can’t seem to fill will raise wages until it either fills the necessary positions or runs out of excess profits. As a result, different buildings in the same state will compete for the available workforce. What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.

A Pop’s Qualifications measure how many of its workforce qualify for certain Professions, and updates monthly depending on how well their current properties match up to the expectations of the Profession in question. For example, at least a basic education level is required to become a Machinist while a much higher one is required to become an Engineer. Conversely, the ability to become an Aristocrat is less about education and more about social class and wealth. Buildings won’t hire Pops who don’t meet the Qualifications for the Profession in question.

These 981 Machinists qualify to become Engineers at a rate of 4.08 per month. Their Literacy is nothing to write home about but they at least meet the cut-off of 20%, aren’t starving to death, and benefit substantially from already working in an adjacent field. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
machinist-quals.PNG

If some Paper Mills required more Engineers and this Pop was being considered, only the amount of qualified Engineers they’ve accumulated so far could be hired. Currently that is only 85 (not shown). If those 85 were all hired, this Pop would then end up with only 896 members left in the workforce of which 0 now qualify to become Engineers. Since all recently hired Engineers used to be Machinists, all 85 retain their Machinist Qualifications. Furthermore, if 512 members of this Pop qualified to be Farmers before the hire (52%), of the 85 of them who were newly promoted to Engineers, 44 of these new Engineers are also qualified to become Farmers.

To be considered for a “job” as Aristocrat a Pop must have at least moderate Wealth, and the more Wealth they have the faster they will develop this potential. Unlike many other jobs Literacy is not a requirement for being accepted into the aristocracy, but an education does make it easier. Bureaucrats and Officers have an easier time becoming Aristocrats than other members of society, while Pops who suffer discrimination on account of their culture have a much harder time. Finally, if a Pop does not meet the minimum Wealth requirement, they actually devolve any prior potential for becoming Aristocrats. This means that down-and-out former nobles robbed of their land and forced to go unemployed or (perish the thought) become a wage laborer will - over time - lose their ability to return to their former social class. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
officers-quals.PNG

Like all Pop attributes, Qualifications follow the Pops as they split, merge, move between buildings, migrate, and die. If you had previously developed a lot of potential Bureaucrats in your country but ran into budgetary problems and had to shut down your schools, over time those Pops who have already developed the Qualifications to become Bureaucrats will die off and not be replaced by newly educated ones. If your Capitalists in a given state had been underpaying their local discriminated employees to the degree that nobody gained the Qualifications to take over for them, and then some of those Capitalists move away to operate a newly opened Iron Mine in the next state over, rather than promoting some of the local discriminated Laborers to the newly opened jobs they will simply leave the spots open (and the mines underproducing) until some qualified Capitalists move in from elsewhere to take over.

Qualifications are entirely moddable by simply providing the computational factors that should go into determining how the value develops each month. If you want to make a mod to split up the Clergymen Profession into individual variants for each Religion in the game, you could make the Imam Profession dependent on the Pop being Sunni or Shi’ite. If you wanted Aristocrat Qualification development to be highly dependent on the amount of unproductive Arable Land in the state the Pop lives in, you could do that. An event option or Decision that makes it faster and easier to educate Engineers but harder to educate Officers for the next 10 years? Absolutely.

A breakdown of all Pops in Lower Egypt that qualify to become Engineers. Of course, any openings will be offered to existing Engineers first, and not all of the remaining qualified Pops would actually be interested in the job - though if it was lucrative enough, perhaps some Aristocrats on a failing Subsistence Farm would consider a career change.
potential-engineers.PNG

The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.

In summary, Qualifications is the mechanism by which access to education and your stance on discrimination - in addition to many other factors - impact your ability to expand different parts of your society. It is also the mechanism that sorts Pops logically into the economic (and thereby political) niches you carve out as you expand, ensuring your laws and economic conditions inform the social mobility of Pops based on who they are. It’s quite subtle, and you might not even notice it’s there - until you run into the challenges caused by rapid industrialization, mass migration, conquests, colonization, and other drastic population shifts.

That is all for this week! Next Thursday we will finally get into how all this economic activity translates into revenue streams for you, when Martin presents the mechanics governing the Treasury and national debt.
 
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If you look closely, its the bureaucrats symbol next to the Government Run method in that screenshot Oglesby just posted. I would guess the dividends get paid to the state, though.
Yeah it would be strange if "government run" just meant that the bureaucrats got rich - well maybe if your government is corrupt...

I guess you could swap capitalists to bureaucrats as employees/shareholders and at the same time impose a 100% tax on dividends...

Edit: For that matter "publicly held" could mean the dividends go directly to the investment pool?
 
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But I can't say I'm feeling the lack of this in-game right now, Capitalists tend to get plenty powerful in industrializing nations even without the ability to snowball their capital.
In the end that is the most important thing. Perfect simulation is never possible, so focusing on good results is the better choice. One of the weakest parts of Vic2 was how the wealthy class felt powerless. The masses had way to pressure the player to pass reforms and such due the threat of revolt, but angry capitalists and aristocrats never felt like a threat. If that changes in Vic3 then this is already a massive improvement.
 
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Yeah it would be strange if "government run" just meant that the bureaucrats got rich - well maybe if your government is corrupt...

I guess you could swap capitalists to bureaucrats as employees/shareholders and at the same time impose a 100% tax on dividends...

Edit: For that matter "publicly held" could mean the dividends go directly to the investment pool?
Maybe a greater portion does, but wouldn't it piss of capitalists if they couldn't keep any dividends to buy luxury goods with?
 
See the problem with this is you haven't clarified any information at all and all you've done is make it more confusing and obscure where the numbers are coming from. Currently on the interface, all POP attribute effects are additive, while the workforce size effect is a multiplier, so it's easy to tell which is which. What you're suggesting is mixing additives and multipliers in the POP attribute modifiers display, which will just confuse the player on whether a certain effect is a POP attribute effect or not. And in fact you yourself have just demonstrated how that becomes more confusing because you got them confused in this very post with the second suggestion mixing POP attributes and the workforce size modifier. So thank you for demonstrating how it would make it more confusing and why it shouldn't be done.
Oh wow, my bad, I just realized that the spaces I put at the start to mimic the display in the dev diary did not appear. That would definitely make it a bit more confusing.

Each month +0.30 due to
1.21 from pop attributes:
- From wealth +2.00
- Fromliteracy +0.42
- From officer x5
- From discrimination x0.1
x0.25 from size of 250

or maybe
Each month +0.30 due to
2.42 from pop attributes:
- From wealth +2.00
- Fromliteracy +0.42
x5 from officer
x0.1 From discrimination
x0.25 from size of 250

I like the second one better, since it groups all the additive modifiers at the start and then all the multiplicative modifiers at the end, but the first one is more like the original one in the dev diary.

I know they are additive, but in spirit they are mutliplicative, so that's why I think it makes it clearer.
If something has a base of +1.3 and a modifier that adds double the base, one could show it as
+1.3 base
+ 2.6 modifier
total: 3.9

but i think its clearer if its done with a multiplicative modifier
+ 1.3 base
x3 modifier
total: 3.9
 
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Rather than "owners" we speak of Shareholders in Victoria 3. Any Pops in a building can also be Shareholders in that building, the amount per Pop typically determined by its Ownership Production Method. Dividends are split between Pops in relation to the number of Shares they hold and the building's Cash Reserve is also considered to be owned - albeit in an illiquid manner - by the Shareholders in proportion to their shares. This lets us represent many different forms of ownership types, investments, etc.

What is does not let us do is represent unlimited, snowballing accumulation of capital in individuals, as you point out, particularly across several industrial sectors. In its current form, shares in a building can only be owned by Pops in the building's workforce, including Capitalists, Aristocrats, etcetera. This implies that e.g. Capitalists actually do some meaningful work in running the day-to-day operations of a business and therefore cannot simply let their workforce balloon without also creating more opportunities for Capitalists to manage the growing operation in the process. This is not completely representative of reality and is a bit of an idealized take on how market economies operate in practice, but there are several gameplay benefits to using this model and its representation as the default behavior. Snowballing accumulation of capital can still be modelled by reducing the number of available Capitalists job opportunities in a building under certain conditions, and it's not out of the question that something like that will make it in. But I can't say I'm feeling the lack of this in-game right now, Capitalists tend to get plenty powerful in industrializing nations even without the ability to snowball their capital.

This is a perfectly reasonable approach, particularly for the base design, but if there was scope to have a "rampant capitalists" themed DLC, that allowed this, while also looked at things like the monopolies in the US during the period, trust-busting and so on, in ways that interacted with interest groups and political power, that might be interesting? It could also touch on things like the armour cartels in Britain and similar (my knowledge of this kind of thing is very patchy).

That's a purely speculative thought, though, and could be rubbish - take it on its merits!

More broadly - thanks for all your answers to this and other DDs - I'm quite sure there are lots of Vicky fans that enjoy hearing these details, I very much appreciate it :)
 
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Maybe a greater portion does, but wouldn't it piss of capitalists if they couldn't keep any dividends to buy luxury goods with?
Well, I'm talking about industries with government-run ownership so capitalists are not in the picture. Though imposing a high dividend tax on privately-owned industries (or having a law that unlocks government industries) would probably not be the most popular thing with the industrialists!
 
Well, I'm talking about industries with government-run ownership so capitalists are not in the picture. Though imposing a high dividend tax on privately-owned industries (or having a law that unlocks government industries) would probably not be the most popular thing with the industrialists!
I was referring to Publicly Traded ownership and it leading dividends to go straight into the investor pool.
 
Pops appear to be tracked by industry, so it could also be that Publicly Traded ownership offers a lower rung of the industry also a part of the dividends. That is, instead of it going to the capitalists alone, the engineers, being generally well educated and wealthy, also get a share. If not necessarily as great a share.
 
Pops appear to be tracked by industry, so it could also be that Publicly Traded ownership offers a lower rung of the industry also a part of the dividends. That is, instead of it going to the capitalists alone, the engineers, being generally well educated and wealthy, also get a share. If not necessarily as great a share.
But they wouldn't pay into the investor pool from what we've seen so far. That seems like a bad choice.

I suppose we'll find out eventually, but I'm very curious about it.
 
2. Aristocrats and Capitalists are required and they are required proportionally to the other Professions in the building. While that is arguably unrealistic - how many Aristocrats do you really need to own the land for people to work it productively, after all - but there's unfortunate side effects from not doing things this way, such as Farms full of Laborers but no Aristocrats to siphon off the profits being able to pay astronomic wages, and then when some Aristocrats move in and take over the land the building is suddenly deep in the red because the Aristocrats need to get paid their share. This then leads to metas where the factors that develop Qualifications for Aristocrats are artificially throttled to ensure simple Farms provide amazing wages without having to engage in any form of ownership reform. Disproportionality between Professions tend to throw the whole balance off, so we avoid it like the plague. Regarding Capitalist investments, it helps to think of a building as an industrial sector, not a single factory. Capitalists invest in expanding the manufacturing industry, which creates opportunities for other companies to move in and start businesses, which leads to more Capitalists.
This isn't "arguably" unrealistic. It is completely unmoored from reality. If capitalists were required to run any complex business, like a factory, neither cooperatives nor state-owned enterprises would exist. But not only do they exist, worker- and consumer-owned cooperatives on average are more-stable and more-productive than their capital-owned counterparts, and are more likely to survive economic crises. Ditto for peasant communes in the USSR, which mostly worked just fine without the involvement of either the old aristocrats or the party bosses who eventually supplanted them. Portraying aristocrats and capitalists as a necessary part of the economy is nonsensical, and there's no reason to even pretend it resembles reality. If your economic model can't handle reality, you need a better economic model.

As far as factory requirements for capitalists go, it seems the issue is that your model generates the "factory", then populates it with capitalists and workers. In actuality, in a capitalist economy the capitalists (or would-be capitalists) precede the establishment of the factory. In sectoral terms, your model has the sector expand spontaneously. In actuality someone or something is investing capital into expanding the sector.

For game purposes, have you considered in a capitalist economy having any newly-built or expanded factory instantly getting capitalist pops? That will avoid the weirdness of free-floating capitalists latching onto factories and bankrupting them. If you are allowing capitalists to build factories, as in Vic2, then the pops building the factory should migrate into it when the factory is completed. Else move pops from one factory to another, or insta-promote some pops from aristocrats or something. The capitalist pop class in Vic3 looks like a catch-all category for everyone from the owner of a petty garment factory run out of someone's living room (with workers bringing their own sewing machines), to J.P.Morgan, so this can represent a lower-strata pop getting capital together and starting a sweatshop or something.

For wholly state-owned enterprises, capitalists shouldn't be required, but they probably should require some additional clerks and bureaucrats or something.
 
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This isn't "arguably" unrealistic. It is completely unmoored from reality. If capitalists were required to run any complex business, like a factory, neither cooperatives nor state-owned enterprises would exist. But not only do they exist, worker- and consumer-owned cooperatives on average are more-stable and more-productive than their capital-owned counterparts, and are more likely to survive economic crises. Ditto for peasant communes in the USSR, which mostly worked just fine without the involvement of either the old aristocrats or the party bosses who eventually supplanted them. Portraying aristocrats and capitalists as a necessary part of the economy is nonsensical, and there's no reason to even pretend it resembles reality. If your economic model can't handle reality, you need a better economic model.
I think you’ve misunderstood. There are Production Methods that don’t use capitalists at all in the game, like Worker Cooperatives and State Ownership, in which case they are replaced by bureaucrats or regular workers, respectively.
The capitalist pop class in Vic3 looks like a catch-all category for everyone from the owner of a petty garment factory run out of someone's living room (with workers bringing their own sewing machines), to J.P.Morgan, so this can represent a lower-strata pop getting capital together and starting a sweatshop or something.
A petty garment factory wouldn’t have Capitalist POPs on Vicky 3, since it would have the Merchant Guild ownership method and would use Shopkeepers instead.
 
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Will there be any kind of wage control laws/decrees possible? I.e. setting a minimum/maximum(!) wage? Will this be modeled only through government subsidies?

Good question! Maybe a strong labor movement could push wages up from the minimum needed to fill the positions, closer to the break-even point of the industry.
 
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For wholly state-owned enterprises, capitalists shouldn't be required, but they probably should require some additional clerks and bureaucrats or something.

This is how I've understood it will be for state-run business, DD #5 mentions state-run business requiring bureaucrats.
 
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How moddable is it? Can we link this to State and States modifiers (so for example giving a penalty in certain unhospitable regions to "peasants" to Qualify for settled jobs, representing how hard it is to settle nomadic populations) or buildings (making Universities for example increase the rate at which POPs qualify for high-education jobs) or Laws (so "Aristocratic Staff" could give penalties to all professions except for Aristocrats to Qualify into Officers) or even other pop traits like Heritage (so a fantasy steampunk mod can have a "Deep Miner" job which only Dwarves and Goblins, the underground races, can get)?
 
This implies that e.g. Capitalists actually do some meaningful work in running the day-to-day operations of a business and therefore cannot simply let their workforce balloon without also creating more opportunities for Capitalists to manage the growing operation in the process.
I am concerned by this. This may be true for small businesses were expansion of an industry occurs by additional capitalists entering the market, founding businesses and employing more people, it is absolutely not true large national or multinational scale corporations which can expand its capital and labour base while distributing its profits between the same small group of owners.

I know this is not Marxism The Video Game but considering that the emergence of such corporations, enabled by industrial modes of production and accumulation of capital, is one of the principal phenomena impacting social conditions in the time period which led to socialist ideas both in theory and practice, it feels wrong to ignore that process entirely. Socialism didn't appear in the latter half of the 19th century just because people wanted short work days or abstractly thought the state should be in charge of economic decisions. It was a direct reaction to the process of increased accumulation and concentration of capital in the capitalist class.

Are you at least considering different production methods reflecting the degree of capital concentration in the industry? As in, small businesses vs oligopolic businesses or something to that extent? The latter could have some throughput bonuses but more importantly require a smaller share of capitalists to operate.

I am also wondering how the "capitalists must be employed in the building" model works with foreign investment. Does it not exist?
 
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It was a direct reaction to the process of increased accumulation and concentration of capital in the capitalist class.
In the end of the post you are replying to lachek confirmed that this still happens over time, so the overall effect is still modeled accurately, even if the precise simulation is not, which is the most important thing. They also mentioned just before that that they are, indeed, considering solutions like the ones you proposed, of the number "capitalist jobs" in an industry decreasing over time.

I share your concern, but the devs are clearly already aware and working on it.
 
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Rather than "owners" we speak of Shareholders in Victoria 3. Any Pops in a building can also be Shareholders in that building, the amount per Pop typically determined by its Ownership Production Method. Dividends are split between Pops in relation to the number of Shares they hold and the building's Cash Reserve is also considered to be owned - albeit in an illiquid manner - by the Shareholders in proportion to their shares. This lets us represent many different forms of ownership types, investments, etc.

What is does not let us do is represent unlimited, snowballing accumulation of capital in individuals, as you point out, particularly across several industrial sectors. In its current form, shares in a building can only be owned by Pops in the building's workforce, including Capitalists, Aristocrats, etcetera. This implies that e.g. Capitalists actually do some meaningful work in running the day-to-day operations of a business and therefore cannot simply let their workforce balloon without also creating more opportunities for Capitalists to manage the growing operation in the process. This is not completely representative of reality and is a bit of an idealized take on how market economies operate in practice, but there are several gameplay benefits to using this model and its representation as the default behavior. Snowballing accumulation of capital can still be modelled by reducing the number of available Capitalists job opportunities in a building under certain conditions, and it's not out of the question that something like that will make it in. But I can't say I'm feeling the lack of this in-game right now, Capitalists tend to get plenty powerful in industrializing nations even without the ability to snowball their capital.
You don't have the micro level. The factories are sectors and not individual factories. Snowballigng des Kapitalis could only be simulated halfway if you had economic actors like characters or "tags" who pursue their own goals and expand. They would then have to buy up factories.

If you don't do that, your system is fine
 
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