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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #111 - Subject Improvements

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Happy Thursday, it's time for more Sphere of Influence / Update 1.7 news!

One of the many benefits of being a Victorian-era Great Power is that you might get to lord over not just your own people, but other nations as well. Whether acquired through brutal conquest, colonial machinations, or willing subserviency, countries subjugated under your leadership can benefit your empire in a number of ways:
  • they expand your market
  • they provide you with a share of their Prestige
  • they may compensate you with taxes in exchange for your protection
  • they may join your wars
  • etc.

This doesn't mean subjects will always just lie back and accept you exploiting them. Overlords that see their subjects as nothing but buffer zones and cash cows could in time come to learn that patience can run thin, leading to calls for independence. And in this era of nationalism, your subject declaring their autonomy could prove the perfect pretense for your worst rival to upset the balance of power.

We're introducing a number of enhancements to gameplay around managing your subjects, or indeed managing your own status as a subjugated nation if that's more your speed. These enhancements are meant to improve interactivity and AI responsiveness, while also introducing a number of quality-of-life features and highly requested additional mechanics. Some features below are available in the Sphere of Influence expansion, while others will come to everyone as part of Update 1.7.

Liberty Desire​

The first and most obvious feature you will encounter relating to your subjects in Update 1.7 is Liberty Desire, a measure of how pressing the issue of autonomy and independence is to the people (particularly the ruling class) in the subjugated nation. At high levels, an AI subject could become rebellious and might make some terribly rude demands of their overlord; at low levels, they will be complacent and cooperative, enabling their overlord to relax and maybe squeeze them a bit more, as they please.

For AI countries, Liberty Desire will strongly influence their strategy with respect to their overlord. Four additional AI strategies have been added:
  • Break Free: the AI attempts to become independent from their overlord
  • Increased Self-Reliance: the AI attempts to increase their autonomy and become less dependent on their overlord, but will not seek outright independence
  • Maintain Autonomy: the AI wants to maintain their autonomy and relationship with their overlord just as it is
  • Integrate with Suzerain: the AI wants closer integration with their overlord and will loyally comply with their wishes

But Liberty Desire is not just for the AI, it also informs what human players can do, and the level of Liberty Desire can have a direct effect on the country and its pops as well. The current level of Liberty Desire is visualized much like Legitimacy, as a tiered meter with different effects at different levels. Unlike Legitimacy it is never static - Liberty Desire is always either increasing or decreasing, the question is at what speed and what you (as overlord or subject) will do about it.

The British East India Company, with its largely self-sufficient economy and powerful standing army, could become a problematic subject for Great Britain unless relations and lobbies are kept in check, and concessions may have to be granted to keep them loyal to the crown.
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A multitude of factors play into Liberty Desire, providing you with a lot of different strategies for how to keep it under control (or perhaps increase it, if you're the subject).
  • Relations: obviously, high relations will lower Liberty Desire and vice versa
  • Relative Prestige: the greater the difference in Prestige between overlord and subject the lower the Liberty Desire. The less autonomous your subject is, the greater the Prestige difference you need to maintain to depress Liberty Desire.
  • Economic Dependence and Lobbies: explained in greater detail below
  • Market Isolation or supply problems: if you cannot provide your subject with effective access to your market, they will be more inclined to demand sovereignty
  • Change Rate scaling: the higher or lower Liberty Desire gets, the slower its rate of progression, giving you more opportunities to manipulate it with Diplomatic Actions (which we'll discuss soon)

Economic Dependence​

Another metric introduced in Update 1.7 is Economic Dependence, which measures exactly what it sounds like: how dependent country A is on country B's economy. Economic Dependence doesn't do anything directly, but feeds into other metrics such as Liberty Desire and the Cohesion of Trade League-type Power Blocs.

A major aspect of Economic Dependence is how much of the nation's economy is owned by the other country through foreign investments, either directly or through pop investors. If you want to make your subjects dependent on you, make sure you provide all of their good jobs.

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If you do not share a market with the other country, the secondary aspect of economic dependence consists of the value of trade between your two nations. But in most cases where Economic Dependence matters, you do share a market, which introduces another few factors.

First off, the difference in GDP between the countries in the market has an impact.

But much more interestingly, how much your economy provides for the other nation's pops - and how much they are able to provide for themselves - is a crucial factor. As a market leader, you're considered to be providing anything the market member does not provide for themselves, in this case luxuries like Opium, Fruit, Luxury Clothes, and Tobacco.

The more you're able to provide for yourself, the more you can offset this factor. In this case, Columbia produces most of the Grain they consume, which is their dominant demand. As a result they more than offset the luxuries provided by membership in the British market.

As a result, from the viewpoint of Great Britain, if I want to increase Columbia's economic dependence on me I should consider producing an excess of the goods they aren't able to fully provide for themselves, such as Liquor. Thinking longer-term, I could also try to take measures to make their domestic staple industries unviable, making me the dominant supplier of (for example) Grain or Clothes or Furniture throughout the empire, while my colonial subjects' economies consists of producing cash crops for the benefit of my own people or industries.

Note that this part of the calculation is currently WIP and may be altered for legibility and consistency before release, but the principles will stay the same.
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Lobbies​

In the Sphere of Influence overview we mentioned Lobbies, which are also crucial to keeping Liberty Desire under control across your empire. We will go deeper into Lobbies next week, but for now I can mention that subject nations will almost always have two Lobbies relating to their overlord: one of them a proponent of closer ties with the overlord, while the other is opposed to the overlord and devoted to independence. The relative power of these Lobbies depends on which Interest Groups support them, how powerful those Interest Groups are, and whether or not they are currently in government, which directly feeds into Liberty Desire as well.

As an overlord, with the Sphere of Influence expansion you will have some indirect influence over this by sponsoring the creation and maintenance of lobbies in other countries, which we will learn more about next week. As a subject, you have more direct control: if an Interest Group supports ties with your overlord, you can try to suppress them, remove them from power, even incite them to revolution and defeat them to keep your Liberty Desire high (though beware this could rouse your overlord into supporting their side!).

Subject Actions​

So as a subject, why would you want your Liberty Desire to be high? You actually probably don't want to keep it high, since it can mean less stability in your country (as reflected by greater risk of Radical generation, as people demand their freedom). But when your Liberty Desire has reached a high enough level, you can make demands of your overlord which are hard for them to ignore.

Increase Autonomy: previously available only as a Diplomatic Demand, you can now more gently request an increase to your autonomy when your Liberty Desire is high enough. Should the overlord decline this request the subject can demand full independence, so the stakes are quite high. If the request is granted, Liberty Desire will drop to much more manageable levels.

Demand State: if your overlord controls a state that is both adjacent or a homeland to you, directly or through another subject, you can demand they give you that state under certain conditions.

Request Payment Relief: you can request that your overlord reduce your payment burden. (Sphere of Influence only)

Request Support for Regime: a pact where the overlord provides overt support for your rule, granting you Legitimacy. This is reversible, so the overlord can grant this pact on their own if they wish. (Sphere of Influence only)

Request Knowledge Sharing: a pact where the overlord provides the subject with a tech spread boost, letting them catch up to the state-of-the-art quicker than usual. This is also reversible, letting the overlord display their benevolence unprompted. (Sphere of Influence only)

For example, you might wish to demand an increased level of autonomy, or relief from excessive payments.

Once one of these demands have been accepted your Liberty Desire will decrease, reflecting the diplomatic impact of the concession your overlord agreed to.

Overlord Actions​

Most of the new options are available for overlords towards their subjects, but follow the same principle - if Liberty Desire is low enough you can demand more from your subject, although this is likely to increase Liberty Desire and maybe even cause it to increase over time. Similarly, you can grant special privileges to depress Liberty Desire.

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The following actions will be coming in Update 1.7 / Sphere of Influence:

Increase and Decrease Autonomy: when Liberty Desire is particularly low, the overlord can force a decrease to their subject's autonomy without making a Diplomatic Demand for it. Full annexation is possible only for Puppets / Vassals, and still requires a Diplomatic Demand.

Grant and Take State: a much requested feature, as an overlord you can now benevolently decide to grant territory to your subject. The state you select must belong either to you or another one of your subjects, and must either be adjacent to the subject or a homeland of one of their primary cultures (and in that case, it cannot also be a homeland for another subject that is adjacent, and therefore a better fit). Granting a state will of course reduce Liberty Desire, often by a substantial amount, especially if it's a homeland. Transferring a state from another subject will of course increase the Liberty Desire of the subject you transferred it from. In the case of Puppet or Vassal subjects, you can even transfer their states to yourself if Liberty Desire is sufficiently low (not their capital though).

Exempt from Service: for subjects that are forced to join the overlord's Diplomatic Plays, this pact lets overlords exempt the subject so they stay out of the conflict.

Grant Own Market: cuts the subject off from your shared market and makes them run their own. This could be useful in cases where you want your subjects to be a trading partner rather than fully integrated with your economy, limit migration, or reserve your convoys.

Reduce or Raise Subject Payments: for Subject Types that must pay a tax to their overlord, these "add-on pacts" allow you to either decrease or increase the amount paid in exchange for a change in Liberty Desire progress. (Sphere of Influence only)

Appoint Colonial Governor: lets the overlord select a new Head of State for the subject. The options the overlord has available depends on their laws vis a vis who the subject is - under some laws you could permit a local governor to take charge, while under others only hopefuls from the empire's capital are permitted. (Sphere of Influence only)

Evangelize: spreads the overlord's state religion in the subject, increasing conversion rates. (Sphere of Influence only)

A nifty cheat sheet to remind you of the effects of different subject types and compare between them has been added to the Subjects tab UI, where you also have easy access to the Liberty Desire values of your subjects, sort functions, and a list of the Overlord actions you can issue for each subject. If the symbols aren't self-explanatory to you, they're of course tooltippable!
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Support Independence​

Support Independence is a new Diplomatic Pact, which a country can establish to commit to support another country's subject if they declare independence from their overlord. Once the Diplomatic Play has been declared, any supporters will automatically join on the subject's side. As a side effect this pact also increases Liberty Desire progression in the subject, so over time supporting a subject's independence may lead to greater autonomy if not full independence.

Supporting the sovereignty of your subject's rivals is a common strategy among aspiring imperialists, and subjects looking to become independent can also cozy up to other nations and ask for their support, hypothetically speaking of course.

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Improved Imposition of Laws​

We introduced the ability to impose laws on your subjects in Update 1.5, but at that time the implementation was so rudimentary it was almost like an easter egg for the few who discovered it. In Update 1.7, you can now impose laws on your subjects directly from the Subjects tab.

When you start imposing a law, the other country will get an event where they can respond to the demand. They can choose to outright refuse, which they might do if their Liberty Desire is high or their chance of passing the law is very low.

You will now also be told what their chances of passing the law is before you commit to it.
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They can also choose to start enacting it right away, giving them a +10% enactment chance for the duration, or deferring it until later. If they are already passing a law at the time you send the demand, they can choose to cancel their current law at no penalty in favor of your request, or wait until the time is right. While they're committed to enacting the law, they cannot cancel it until it's complete. They can however abandon the attempt, and may do so if they've made no progress after several years, but this will hurt relations with you.


As a player, your AI overlord may make these demands of you as well, and you have the same options to deal with them.
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Conclusion​

These new interactions with your subjects (or your overlord), informed by the Liberty Desire metric, Economic Dependence system, and Lobbies, is meant to add more difficulty, depth, and interactivity to your imperialist projects - or as a subject, give you the ability to plan for your eventual independence. While most of these mechanics are available in Update 1.7, several of the new interactions are a component of the Sphere of Influence expansion. Some of the mechanics, such as imposition of laws and diplomatic actions limited to countries you have special relationships with, also integrate with the Power Bloc mechanics in Sphere of Influence to give you a more unified way of interacting with countries in your sphere, whether they're subjugated to you directly or merely in the same Bloc as you.

These features also add exciting new potentials for more targeted interactions with specific countries without cluttering up the lens interface where more generic actions are shown, permitting for more custom interactions between countries to be added in the future. Modders should also be able to make good use of the new options we've added to Diplomatic Actions, such as modifier support.

As mentioned earlier, next week Wiz will be back to go into more detail on Lobbies, and what they provide for the upcoming Sphere of Influence expansion. Until then!

Overview for all upcoming Dev Diaries:
Date
Topic
11th April
Lobbies and More on Power Blocs​
18th April
The Great Game​
25th April
The Art of Sphere of Influence​
2nd May
Changelog 1.7​
 
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Between subjects improvements and lobbies, it really does feel like there should be space for a meaningful overhaul of how minorities express(or more accurately in the current version of the game, don't express) their dislike of the current regime. It's probably one of the weakest parts of the game in its current state and makes direct widespread conquest far easier to maintain long term than it should be.
 
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It's feasible, but with nowhere near 100% certainty. Total annexation is a Big Deal in the age of nationalism, and it's entirely plausible some country on the other side of your puppet might have strong opinions about losing that buffer state. You can still arbitrarily take certain states away from your puppet if their Liberty Desire is low enough, though.
*Insert a "The myth of consensual annexation : Is there someone you forgot to ask?" meme"*

This is typically the case in which I could see a "ghost diplo play" mechanics, which would allow people to intervene to stop something, but if no one does the annexation happens without fight.
Intervening would mean that they need to fight both you and your subject instead of you having to fight your subject that actually "agreed" to be annexed. If they agreed, they should be on your side.

It would also makes more sense with the design of "Everything that is achievable by war can be achieved by diplomacy", because currently, triggering a diplo play and hoping for the other side to back down isn't very much "diplomatic" and is not at all your decision.
 
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This actually speaks to a greater point in the way wars, war goals, war supports and ending wars and enforcing war goals currently work.

All of these systems are very flawed and feel first pass. It harms both historical immersion and gameplay fun that wars are currently so wonky and their progression and outcomes are so counter-intuitive. I am talking about when belligerents peace out, what is required to enforce war goals, and the actual playing experience of executing a war. You could say war is a secondary concern in a game focused on diplomacy and economics - and I do appreciate the diplomatic improvements in this expansion! - but if wars make no sense there are huge spillover effects to adjacent gameplay systems. Currently diplomacy feels unrewarding because all your diplomatic setup is frustrated once it plays out in a war that makes no sense.

I am a little disappointed that the dev response to this question is just "yeah yeah but you pay diplo costs" (diplo capacity is also a bad mechanic but I do not want to digress further) instead of at least acknowledging the issues with wars and war outcomes. This is the part of the game most urgently in need of improvement in my opinion.
couldn't agree more.
you can change if the farmers of Louisiana use mechanical tools or not - but there is nothing even remotely close to simulate the great war and the treaty of Versailles. It is quite frustrating
 
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Regarding the EIC, Dutch East Indies and similar regimes with a priveleged settler class and exploited native majority, I think liberty desire should be explicitly be that of the govt.

For realism there should be a large anti independance modifier whilst the settler population remains below a certain % (maybe 20%) and native pops are discriminated.

Two preconditions for an active independance movement would then be
1) a higher % of accepted settlers or

2) increased native enfranchisement

WIth most of the subjugated but uncolonised states already tickung box 1 by their high proportion of core pops.

Racism/Multiculturalism in the colonial centre should also be a factor.
 
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Economic Dependence is cool as hell and I love seeing it. The big caveat is that, as far as I can tell, it's a tooltip inside a tooltip inside another tooltip inside of a random menu. Could we not make this more prominent in one screen or another or is there simply no good design space to use right now?

Great point and actually a not-uncommon piece of feedback. For right now the info is going to remain in nested tooltips, but I'll look into how to better expose it to the player in the future. Very similar situation to how Pop Needs used to be nested in deep tooltips for several major versions after release, now that I think of it. Thank you!

I can only second the suggestion regarding economic numbers. I wish for a separate screen that collects a lot of economic data that is currently in tooltips. This screen could be called "Macroeconomic Indicators" or something like that and include not only the numbers from the budget tooltip (tariff income, etc.), but also stuff like the normal wage (with a nice graph on how it evolved), GDP by sector and so on.
 
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Will overlords be able to go to war on behalf of subjects, eg could Britian invade the Zulus to let Cape colony annex them? Or if you vassalized Greece could you then invade the Ottoman Empire to get the Greek cores? Or would this have to be done by taking the states yourself then granting it to a subject?
 
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We still need greater impact of Nationalism within existing countries that are not subjects.

Nationalism is explicitly in the game as a tech that allows for Ethnostate agitation, which can lead to that law making only primary cultures accepted.

However, it feels like Nationalism should have a much greater affect...

Maybe I'm missing other aspects of how this is represented in-game.
 
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Really looking forward to this DLC, this all looks great so far!

Though I second the opinions that it should be possible to convert a subject country towards your religion, as a continuation of centuries of podzolization in Indonesia and Africa by different religions!
 
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I'm not disagreeing with that, but it could make the calculation very swingy if we implemented that for shared markets (it's already taken into account for trade routes between markets, of course). Pop needs are quite a bit more sticky, so making changes to your economy to improve access to those goods can have a more predictable effect. Making changes to your economy to not demand so much coal in your industries could also change the output goods side of the equation, making it a lot more difficult to find an economic configuration where your economic dependence predictably drops (or increases, if you're the overlord).
Is this a problem with the AI? Because I want to say “skill issue” if it’s entirely on the player end of things. A country which makes itself entirely self sufficient in terms of pop-demands by importing everything that isn’t directly consumed by pops to produce everything that is should be extremely dependent, as should a country which lacks domestic shipbuilding and arms industry and relies on imports to keep its ports, warships, and army operational. I feel representing this dynamic, especially arms industry, is important. Perhaps a compromise where only certain buildings, ports, railways, power plants, and military buildings are treated as pops for these purposes? Personally I’d bite the bullet and let things be slightly unintuitive, economics are hard, but for buildings which produce no goods, or only produce local goods, the dependency is fairly intuitive.
 
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Is there a way to peacefully puppet/integrate other countries?
For example if you have an independent country in your power bloc, and with enough foreign investment or something else, will you be able to turn them into some level of subject and proceed from there? Because that's essentially what the Zollverein did with the North German Federation, IIRC, they were economically so strongly integrated, that the change of government was just a minor thing in the end.

Would surely be a neat option, like if their economy relies to a certain percentage on you (don't know, like 75 or 80%) you can turn them into a subject or so.
Diary 109 says that this option exists but is specific to the "Sovereign Empire" power bloc identity, which GB and Russia should have on game start.
 
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@lachek

Will there be any mechanisms in the future to get a country to decrease its relations with another country? In a lot of games, relations tend to stay stagnant for a long time and it is hard for minor powers to expand if their two larger neighbors are friends most of the time.

Releasing/Returning states to countries could be made to be a more common occurrence as it is a way to make your enemies weaker without taking land you have no claims to yourself. Greece, Serbia, and the Romanian countries barely get their homelands handed to them (Transylvania in particular). Bulgaria, Panama, the Dominican Republic, and New Zealand are also never created in the game.
 
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Is there a difference in liberty desire depending on government/subject state? For example, the Dutch East Indies are a colony with appointed governors... It makes sense that liberty desire would naturally be lower in such states than in Australia, with their own elected government.

Actually, that makes me think... Does liberty desire represent the desire of the people of the government? Presumably the latter, if those lobby groups will represent the interest groups.
 
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Will there be any changes to the manpower system? It's a pretty constant issue right now where my armies lose all of their manpower after several months and there's no way to fix it. Looking for advice online just says to do enlistment edicts which feels like manna that doesn't work for democracies.
 
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I should probably wait for tomorrow's diary to have better visibility (and I don't even know if it's here). But could you take a look at the prices charged in Brazil?

Victoria 3 Base: 179,99 / 35,99 USD
Sphere Of Influence: 107,99 / 21,56 USD
Minimum wage in Brazil: 281,89 USD

Purchasing power here is low, it is impossible to keeping buy DLC that costs a lot for a game which will have a long life expectancy in content
 
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Great improvements.
I have one concern: how will 1.7 deal with civil wars / rebellions within subjects? Will they be less frequent?They are somewhat of a pain right now, specially as Great Britain, and I feel that discontent of the subject should be represented in its interactions with its overlord, and no so much in rebellions within the subjects' territory.
Also, would a regime change in the overlord after a civil war affect the subjects? are they automatically released?
Perhaps one benefit would be that an overlord bailing a subject out of a diplo-play would tank their Liberty Desire. Perhaps bottoming-out would force an obligation on the subject.
 
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Grant Own Market: cuts the subject off from your shared market and makes them run their own. This could be useful in cases where you want your subjects to be a trading partner rather than fully integrated with your economy, limit migration, or reserve your convoys.

So, question; what if you want to grant them their own market simply because there's an ocean in the middle and you want them to not die while all your clippers get wiped out in a blockade - but you *still* want migration from/to them?

It seems to me that if you wanted to cut off migration - that's what law changes for either your nation or your subject are for.

In fact, in all the games I've played where I've wanted to cut off a subject to have their own market - migration is the one thing I would definitely *not* want to have been cut off.
 
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There are couple of improvements that IMO would fit upcoming subject interactions:
- Liberate as puppet war goal with higher infamy cost compared to regular liberation.
- Press subject's claims/return cores war goal
- Create subject from own territories but with being able to select particular provinces.
 
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