• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #113 - Diplomatic Catalysts

16_9.png

Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 Dev Diary! As we already mentioned, there’s been some changes in the Dev Diary schedule due the release date to Sphere of Influence/Update 1.7 being delayed, so today we’ll be talking about Diplomatic Catalysts instead of the previously planned Great Game dev diary. We’ll be posting a new Dev Diary schedule as soon as it’s finalized, most likely next week.

Right then, let’s get to the topic at hand. Diplomatic Catalysts is a new system added in update 1.7, the role they play in creating Political Lobbies, and the impact they will have on how the diplomatic AI acts towards other countries.

So, what is a Diplomatic Catalyst? Put simply, a Diplomatic Catalyst is a type of diplomatic ‘occurrence’, positive or negative, between two countries. There are many different types of Catalysts, here is a small list of examples:
  • Relations between two countries increases by one full ‘level’ (for instance from Cordial to Amicable)
  • A subject has their autonomy decreased
  • Two countries end up on the same side in a Diplomatic Play
  • A country reforms their government and becomes significantly ideologically divergent from another country’s government
  • A country declares another country their rival
  • A country breaks off a mutually negotiated Diplomatic Pact with another

Each type of Catalyst may result in the creation of a Political Lobby in one or both of the countries, targeting the other country. The type of Lobby and chance for it to appear depends on the nature of the Catalyst (such as whether it is of a hostile nature), the diplomatic conditions between the two countries, and whether the overall conditions are suitable for the creation of a Lobby. For example, a ‘Relations Increased’ catalyst will only create pro-country lobbies, with an increasingly higher chance to do so the higher relations go. Conversely, the ‘Pact Broken’’ catalyst can create both pro and anti-country lobbies and is more likely to do so the more significance the broken pact had for the country that just had it taken away from them. Some catalysts, such as ‘Ideological Divergence’, can result in the creation of either a Pro or an Anti-Country lobby.

Of course, it isn’t as simple as just being a dice roll: the proper conditions must be in place for a Lobby to appear to begin with and there must be at least one non-marginalized Interest Group interested in joining the Lobby. Additionally, the calculation for whether an Interest Group wants to join a lobby or not can depend on the type of Catalyst: For example, if the ‘Ideological Divergence’ catalyst creates a Lobby, Interest Groups calculating their desire to join that lobby will place additional emphasis on their own ideological view of the country in question. After all, just because a country that’s going all in on Market Liberalism has ideologically diverged from your government doesn’t mean your in-opposition Industrialists aren’t over the moon about their new politics.

The signing of a Defensive Pact between Brazil and the USA has resulted in the creation of a powerful Pro-American Lobby comprised of the Industrialists and Landowners
DD113_01.png

Right then, onto the diplomatic AI. Since this is a topic we haven’t talked about in a while, I thought I’d give a little refresher on how the AI decides its behavior towards other countries, before telling you about how this decision-making process will change in 1.7.

Fundamentally, the most important factor in how an AI country behaves towards another country is their Attitude. Attitude is mainly determined by a country’s Attitude Score and Strategic Desire, which is in turn influenced by their Diplomatic Strategy and other factors such as active Journal Entries.

Confused yet? I’ll try to illustrate with an example: If you’ve ever played Mexico, you should be all too familiar with US aggression. They typically start as Antagonistic towards Mexico and progress to Belligerent after some time has passed. Though these are both hostile attitudes, they differ considerably in which particular hostile behaviors the AI will engage in.

Antagonistic AIs will tend to oppose you in diplomatic plays and use hostile diplomatic actions like rivalry and embargo, but will rarely attack you outright. Even if they do attack, they will do so using wargoals aimed at weakening you or at worst snatching away subjects they have an interest in: they want to keep you in check but they don’t have any interest in taking your land.

Belligerent AIs, on the other hand, are very much interested in taking your land. They may be after just a single state, or a handful of states, or they may in fact be seeking outright annexation. Regardless, when a Belligerent AI comes over for a visit, you’d better hope that your army and its allies are up to the task of seeing them off.

So why does the AI pick one over the other? It all comes down to the aforementioned Strategic Desire, which represents their long-term diplomatic goals towards a particular nation. The US tends to start with the ‘Antagonize’ Strategic Desire towards Mexico, and change to ‘Conquer’ once they research Nationalism and unlock the Manifest Destiny Journal Entry. If these sound like they line up directly with Antagonistic/Belligerent, it’s because they do! In some cases, a Strategic Desire will translate directly into a particular Attitude unless offset by the Attitude Score, while in others it’s more nuanced. I don’t want to go too on too much of a tangent into Attitude Score, but you can think of it as the AI’s calculation of whether it’s willing to set aside its long-term diplomatic goals for short-term reasons. I.e., ‘we do want to conquer a state from the Ottomans, but at the moment we need them to protect us against Austria’.

‘Maintain Balance of Power’ is one of the more common Diplomatic Strategies, and has the AI pursue more moderate diplomatic goals, avoiding excessive infamy and preferring weakening their rivals to expanding their borders in most cases.
DD113_02.png

When the AI is prompted to select a Strategic Desire towards another country, they look at the pool of available and achievable desires, assign them a score, and then select through a weighted random process. As mentioned above, Diplomatic Strategy plays an important role here: A country with the ‘Acquire Colonies’ strategy needs no particular reason to select the Conquest desire towards a juicy Unrecognized target, while a country with ‘Defend the Borders’ will only consider picking it to retake lost territories, and even then they’re reluctant to do so in an offensive war. Journal Entries also factor heavily, as we saw with the Manifest Destiny example above. There are of course many more factors in how the AI scores different desires: as an example, AI countries tend to pick more hostile desires towards a country going full-in on radical leftism if they themselves are not pursuing a similar path.

But enough with the long-winded explanations, let’s get to what has actually changed in 1.7. I mentioned above that the AI selects a Strategic Desire ‘when it is prompted to do so’, and here is the crux of the matter. In the current version of the game, the AI uses a system that you could call a ‘reroll progress bar’. For each country, it tracks the progress of said bar, which increases slowly over time but can also make larger jumps from certain occurrences, such as the country selecting a new Diplomatic Strategy or the two countries suddenly ending up opposed in a play, essentially a much simpler version of the very Diplomatic Catalyst system we’re going over in this DD.

Once the reroll progress bar hits 100, the AI will re-roll its strategic desire, often with an additional weight towards ‘staying the course’, particularly towards a country they have long-standing diplomatic pacts with. This may seem like a fairly sensible system, but the problem is that it’s entirely opaque to the player. You simply aren’t told that your long-standing ally just turned hostile towards you because they had a massive ideological shift in their government or picked up a new Journal Entry - at best you may get a custom notification that gives you a hint, such as the one for the French Borders Journal Entry.

This, of course, is where the Catalysts come in! As of update 1.7, the ‘re-roll bucket’ is gone, and replaced with a system of weights similar to those used for Lobby creation, which allows for the AI to adjust its long-term goals in a way that’s far less arbitrary and most importantly, which can be explained to the player. Just like different Catalysts have different weights and conditions for creating Lobbies, the way they potentially alter an AI’s diplomatic strategy is also tailored to the specific Catalyst.

To give you an example, ‘Country Bankrupt’ is a Catalyst that triggers for all of a country’s diplomatic ties when they go bankrupt. For most AI countries, this is of little significance and won’t result in any change in Strategic Desire, but if an AI thinks it’s in a position to take advantage of the bankrupt country’s momentary weakness, particularly if they are pursuing a strategy of Economic Imperialism, a recalculation may trigger in which the AI picks a new desire towards the bankrupt country, which will always be of a more hostile nature than whatever they had before. Other catalysts (for example ‘Relations Improved‘) may only ever change their Strategic Desire in a friendlier direction, while yet others (for example ‘Diplomatic Strategy Changed’) can potentially change it in any direction that makes sense at the time.

By declaring bankruptcy to deal with their crippling debt problems, Ashanti has displayed their weakness to the world and become a tempting target for Great Britain
DD113_03.png

So what does all this mean? Essentially, what it all boils down to is that the AI is now much more transparent and comprehensible in its behavior, and that the diplomatic relationship between two countries will flow much more from the actions of those two countries. Your AI ally will no longer turn on you just because some dice rolls behind the scenes told them to, they will turn on you because you broke a Trade Agreement they saw as vital, or because you pushed your Infamy too far, or because the ideologies of your governments simply became too incompatible. Similarly, befriending an AI is no longer just a matter of keeping relations high and praying for a re-roll, instead you can actively work to improve their Strategic Desire (and thus attitude) towards you by acting in a manner that benefits them: Make enemies of their enemies, support them in diplomatic plays, and so on.

Even if you missed the notification informing you of an Attitude change resulting from a new Strategic Desire, you can always tooltip the Attitude of an AI country to discover the reason that they adopted their current Strategic Desire towards you. You can even use this to discover why two AI countries are enemies or friends with each other by using the Attitude filter on the diplomatic map mode!
DD113_04.png

That’s all for today! Next week we’ll be switching topics and talking about the content side of Sphere of Influence, starting with The Great Game. See you then!
 
  • 124Like
  • 84Love
  • 8
  • 1
Reactions:
This comment is reserved for developer comments!

This looks very good! I have a bit more of a technical question: are "diplomatic incidents" gone? They overlap greatly with catalysts and are an almost unused feature.

Very happy to see the attitude score being listed and something that can be broken down, any chance you could provide us with a screenshot of the tooltip, just for fun? :p
Diplomatic Incidents are not gone, but they are also a catalyst now so can trigger AI reactions and attitude changes.

You can tooltip the attitude score in the live version of the game, that's been in since launch :)


Does "declare Rivalry" also trigger a catalyst for other Rivals of the target nation? E.g. the British and the French hate each other, and if I rival the French as Russia, Britain gets a catalyst (and maybe a pro-russian lobby)
Yep!

very excited about the new content. Can I ask you the list (or at least some exemples) of diplomatic lobbies existing at the start of the game? Thanks
One immediate example that comes to mind is Greece having Pro-Russian, Pro-British and Pro-French lobbies (and no longer having parties named after these).

Lobbies are a truly positive addition, but considering that one IG can be found in several lobbies, that the approval of lobbies can vary greatly with simple diplomatic actions, and that diplomatic catalysts are very numerous (even if they do not mean the systematic creation of an associated lobby), aren't you afraid that the approval of IGs will be completely saturated by lobby modifiers?
After all, an IG opposed to almost all the laws of the country only has a penalty of -5, whereas the approval of a lobby can make some jump with a trade pact, for example (we saw +2 for an embargo).
Doesn't this addition risk making diplomacy and its effects monstrously more important than domestic policies?
I imagine, for example, that banning slavery won't be such a major upset for the Landowners if it only takes one or two simple diplomatic actions to change their approval from -18 to -8.

Did you get this impression during the tests?

Click to expand...
We're still testing and fine-tuning the balance of lobbies, the numbers shown in last week's DD may definitely end up changing before release.

How easy is it to add new diplomatic catalysts? Will catalysts have associated on_actions?
Very easy, they are completely moddable and can be triggered from script. They have an effect = {} field where you can add any on-actions you want to.

Thank you for the diary, will more attitudes be coming with 1.7? The current crop mostly boil down to "ready to fight, ready to be friends, ready to vassalize you, don't care." Will we be seeing more that lean into the new expressions of soft power we see in power blocs and foreign investment? eg "We want access to your market but we don't necessarily want to be your friend"


Otherwise will these changes lead to more appropriate attitudes between GPs and major unrecognized powers? Namely fewer Chinese interventions in european wars?
There's a few new attitudes for subjects but nothing quite as granular as what you're talking about. Seems like a good idea for the future though.

What happens when a Catalyst disappears but is not replaced by an opposing Catalyst? (Declaration of Rivalry being revoked)

How do Lobbies recalculate based on this?

Are Lobby (and/or Diplomatic AI strategic desire) recalculations daily/weekly/monthly?

What prevents instability and jitter/noise in this system as the different AIs in the game ping-pong back and forth between different Relations/Stances states?

What happens if a Lobby is sustained by a single Catalyst that is now negated or counteracted?
Lobbies aren't 'sustained' by a catalyst exactly, they form because of one and it influences their shape on formation but after that the catalyst is just that, their formation moment, and plays no further role in shaping how that lobby evolves.

Maybe You could tell us sth about roadmap for 2024 - what after SoI???? Does the delay with the release of SoI will strongly affect your further plans?
As with our other updates we normally start talking about our post-release plans in a diary after the release. E.g. What's next after 1.X? So after release is when we will talk about it!

Will there also be talk about changes on the map???
We have that planned for something in a diary, not this one specifically but you will see some changes in the great game diary of course.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • 3Like
  • 3
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
This looks very good! I have a bit more of a technical question: are "diplomatic incidents" gone? They overlap greatly with catalysts and are an almost unused feature.

Very happy to see the attitude score being listed and something that can be broken down, any chance you could provide us with a screenshot of the tooltip, just for fun? :p
 
  • 6Like
Reactions:
Does "declare Rivalry" also trigger a catalyst for other Rivals of the target nation? E.g. the British and the French hate each other, and if I rival the French as Russia, Britain gets a catalyst (and maybe a pro-russian lobby)
 
  • 9Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Lovely, I was looking for an explanation of Diplomatic stategies and specially a rework of the strategic desire aka secret motive in the game files to make it easier to understand for the player.

Great news, let's hope you have tested the new system so it does not cascade into constant changes!
 
  • 5
  • 1Like
Reactions:
This was a very interesting read! Making the diplomatic interactions less opaque should help make diplomacy more interesting to interact with!

or because you pushed your Infamy too far

Are there changes to the infamy mechanic in 1.7? Is the influence of infamy on your AI neighbours determined by dividing your infamy in brackets? (0-25, no penalties. 25-50, mid penalties, etc) or does it scale gradually? (new_relation = (1 - infamy) * current_relation)?
 
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Lobbies are a truly positive addition, but considering that one IG can be found in several lobbies, that the approval of lobbies can vary greatly with simple diplomatic actions, and that diplomatic catalysts are very numerous (even if they do not mean the systematic creation of an associated lobby), aren't you afraid that the approval of IGs will be completely saturated by lobby modifiers?
After all, an IG opposed to almost all the laws of the country only has a penalty of -5, whereas the approval of a lobby can make some jump with a trade pact, for example (we saw +2 for an embargo).
Doesn't this addition risk making diplomacy and its effects monstrously more important than domestic policies?
I imagine, for example, that banning slavery won't be such a major upset for the Landowners if it only takes one or two simple diplomatic actions to change their approval from -18 to -8.

Did you get this impression during the tests?
 
  • 10
  • 5Like
  • 1
Reactions:
This looks very good! I have a bit more of a technical question: are "diplomatic incidents" gone? They overlap greatly with catalysts and are an almost unused feature.

Very happy to see the attitude score being listed and something that can be broken down, any chance you could provide us with a screenshot of the tooltip, just for fun? :p
Diplomatic Incidents are not gone, but they are also a catalyst now so can trigger AI reactions and attitude changes.

You can tooltip the attitude score in the live version of the game, that's been in since launch :)

Does "declare Rivalry" also trigger a catalyst for other Rivals of the target nation? E.g. the British and the French hate each other, and if I rival the French as Russia, Britain gets a catalyst (and maybe a pro-russian lobby)
Yep!
 
  • 33Like
  • 8
  • 5Love
  • 1
Reactions:
very excited about the new content. Can I ask you the list (or at least some exemples) of diplomatic lobbies existing at the start of the game? Thanks
One immediate example that comes to mind is Greece having Pro-Russian, Pro-British and Pro-French lobbies (and no longer having parties named after these).
 
  • 31Like
  • 16Love
  • 8
Reactions:
Lobbies are a truly positive addition, but considering that one IG can be found in several lobbies, that the approval of lobbies can vary greatly with simple diplomatic actions, and that diplomatic catalysts are very numerous (even if they do not mean the systematic creation of an associated lobby), aren't you afraid that the approval of IGs will be completely saturated by lobby modifiers?
After all, an IG opposed to almost all the laws of the country only has a penalty of -5, whereas the approval of a lobby can make some jump with a trade pact, for example (we saw +2 for an embargo).
Doesn't this addition risk making diplomacy and its effects monstrously more important than domestic policies?
I imagine, for example, that banning slavery won't be such a major upset for the Landowners if it only takes one or two simple diplomatic actions to change their approval from -18 to -8.

Did you get this impression during the tests?
We're still testing and fine-tuning the balance of lobbies, the numbers shown in last week's DD may definitely end up changing before release.
 
  • 24
  • 9Like
Reactions:
I hope that if not in 1.7, maybe in the future we can have a "mark country as important" like in EU4, and receive notifications about diplomacy related to them even if it doesn't relate directly to us.
 
  • 23
  • 11Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Thank you for the diary, will more attitudes be coming with 1.7? The current crop mostly boil down to "ready to fight, ready to be friends, ready to vassalize you, don't care." Will we be seeing more that lean into the new expressions of soft power we see in power blocs and foreign investment? eg "We want access to your market but we don't necessarily want to be your friend"


Otherwise will these changes lead to more appropriate attitudes between GPs and major unrecognized powers? (Namely fewer Qing interventions in European Wars)
 
  • 5Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
How easy is it to add new diplomatic catalysts? Will catalysts have associated on_actions?
Very easy, they are completely moddable and can be triggered from script. They have an effect = {} field where you can add any on-actions you want to.
 
  • 18
  • 7Like
  • 2Love
Reactions:
If there are a series of catalyst over some period of time, all of which increase the chance of a country turning more hostile, will that popup only mention the final catalyst that "broke the camels back"?
 
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
This is great, both in making this more visible to the player and reducing the random element. Hopefully we will see more logical and longer term AI rivals and allies.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Thank you for the diary, will more attitudes be coming with 1.7? The current crop mostly boil down to "ready to fight, ready to be friends, ready to vassalize you, don't care." Will we be seeing more that lean into the new expressions of soft power we see in power blocs and foreign investment? eg "We want access to your market but we don't necessarily want to be your friend"


Otherwise will these changes lead to more appropriate attitudes between GPs and major unrecognized powers? Namely fewer Chinese interventions in european wars?
There's a few new attitudes for subjects but nothing quite as granular as what you're talking about. Seems like a good idea for the future though.
 
  • 30Like
  • 5
Reactions:
If in future there are other lobbies added for domestic politics such as nationalism will they have catalysts as well or are they limited to international interactions?

Are there catalysts for disbanding existing lobbies?
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
That is great! One of the most frustrating things about diplomacy is how nonsensical and unreliable it was. With countries hating you out of nowhere after being allies for decades or breaking allianes with you for no reason or joining wars against you while being friendly to you with no game pop up or tooltip telling you why!

I think this may seem like a small change but is going to drastically change diplomacy as you may be able to have a more consitent and solid diplomatic tie with countries and now where you stand when attacking, being attacked or knowing who you can rely on and who you can't.

Really happy for this change. I really hope it actually works as well as you make it sound and its not all wonky and stupid on release!

PS. Is there a way that you could make it vissible for a me as France, intending on attacking Joseon, easily see that GB is going to join them because they have a protective attitude towards them? I still find very frustrating not being able to see why some countries join conflict against me especially when it says there are not many chances...It feels like playing the lottery and is not very fun. You could either have a smooth short war agianst your target or 3 GP may join against you and destroy your country. Its literally like a lotery, not very fun. I wish the AI and UI could be more transparent on that too. It's something that I much prefer in EU 4 where you do know whether a country will join or not before hand, its not a 50%50%
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions: