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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.


1) So, something that happened back then, that still happens now, is that when a situation like that happens, projects get paralyzed, would that be an option in the game? either voluntarily or forcefully paralize a construction project until there's enough money to keep going (possibly, not fully eliminating it's cost but reducing it to a minimum). This can reflect very realistically also situations in which a vital fort or infraestructure part of a war or a big economical plan founds itself delayed for economic cuts. And would also give the player a bit of more control on their expenses in that way.

2) If you ever add inflation to the game,that could pair nicely with this, as projects that are often delayed then suffer from having a higher inflation. If "corruption" of some kind gets added to the game too, that'd be interesting too. Many great projects of the time suffered situations like this, for example, here in argentina the building of our congress. While the construction started in 1886, and it was inaugurated in 1906, the building wasn't fully finished until 1946, with tons of delays,causes of overpricing and a cost that was way higher than what was originally intended.

Now sure, not saying to represent that exactly or to that extent.. but something on the lines of corruption/inefficiency affecting the cost or time of construction projects to some degree sounds very doable and another reason to keep your administration runing smoothly.

3) something that I can't fully see from this, usually, nowadays and back then, countries take loans *before* their gold reserves are out, specially for what is said of them being a valid way to build a country. Is this possible? Or is it obligatory to reach to the bottom of the gold reserves to actually use them
 
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So.... no inflation in game ?
Then this has to mean that the seen prices in the goods DD are really the hard cap of upper and lower price ?
Mmh... I can understand this from a balancing and anti-bug perspective, still a shame you can't see the price of a good rump up to infinity.
 
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  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.
As someone who loves economics and have studied it a lot, I like what you are doing with Vicky3. However, tariffs are usually a tax that is added to the price of IMPORTED goods and not exported as you say up there.

This "tax" is added to the price the foreign seller is willing to sell their goods at an x country but they (the seller) don't get that money, it goes to the government of country x, they (the seller) only get the price they were willing to sell with. Tariffs are implemented to make foreign goods more expensive in the country so that the population will start buying locally produced goods that will help the local market. It sure does provide the government with extra revenue, but it is not external revenue, it is coming from the internal market of that country, from the pops basically.

Subsidies on the other hand are a way to make profit from the goods you export. By doing so you will make your goods a bit cheaper at the international market which could potentially lead to higher demand for your goods, however in real life, that does not always lead to extra profit. (more revenue/demand does not necessarily mean more profit and the elasticity of demand of a product plays a big role in whether it will be good to decrease its price or not)

I also would love to see a quota system and/or embargo as well but my hopes are not really that high.
 
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Money is not conserved in the V3 economy. If a good is over-produced in a market (low prices), then sellers get more money than buyers pay, leading to money creation. If a good is under-produced, then sellers get less money than buyers pay, leading to money destruction. Money lost due to tax inefficiency is probably destroyed, and money from dependent side-jobs seems to be created.

How exactly all these money sinks and sources balance out over time and affect the larger economy is something I am keen to learn.
Thank you for your reply. This worries me quite a bit. A game needs abstraction but having money disappear/appear this way is weird. I really hope the final system will still work like a somewhat believable economy.
 
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That is actually not a bad idea, no promises but I'll note it down as something we might do.
Yay, another way a country can be on fire that I’ll have to try to put out.
I would recommend it as part of Ironman. Have a more relaxed version available with console commands while if you want achievements you’re going to have to deal with the full gamut of problems facing your country at game start.
I’m not a fan of it being Ironman only, mostly because I don’t play Ironman but I would like to play with starting debt.
 
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Final personal note :

i do see the "middle" uption of a "regressive" income tax form is :
60% ; 30% ; 15 %
I know this DD isnt about taxation and administration efficiency. Still, if i'm thinking about V2 mechanics where [effective tax = tax(0-1) * efficiency(0-1)] this seems odd. I know the exact numbers are work in progress, but if 60/30/15 is the middle, what would be the max bee (2up) ? 70?35?15? -- 80?50?25? -- 60?50?40?

I'm actually worried about high the taxes does seem and how one should not expect the poorer strata to not revolt ?
 
Why would you keep the dollar in HOI if you destroy the United States? Why keep ducats in EU4 when much of the world didn't even have direct trade with Venice? It's a simple abstraction so that there is a single, standard currency for the game, and for the Victorian era the pound is the most logical choice to use.
EU and HOI are not focused on international trade as VIC.
You're speaking from an international point of view I am speaking nationally, why limit to one currency when we have many more, it's more accurate and aesthetic.
Like I said if you play as the US, or France you certainly don't want to talk/see in the pound as your currency.
I get what you're saying based on the era and name of the game but we could also consider the gold standard then...
At the end the Pound was never the national currency of any the other major countries...
 
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Not sure what is actually whanted : the sources do give information about taxes in history and about an index.

To the latter :
As an index, it does what it's name implies : it gives a summed up values of different quantitative datas. How would such a tool be helpful in a BUDGET situation ? (the one this DD is about). While i could see the reasoning to have a comparative index in game (try in V2 to find out which would be the "best country to live in") this would open up a on how you would toggle thoose values (ie. does 10.000 more yearly income equal or not a 1%p in less crime/unliteracy/mortality ?)

To the former :
We are talking about a BUDGET. What would be different in no western no today countries ? Not sure while Marx or Henry George (?) ar mentioned here. If it it to criticise the use of money in a buget, while it's true you could theoreticaly do a bughet which "working Hours" (think of how a peasant has to work several weeks to pay the landlords rights, or how a citizten had in medieval times to do a day a year of tower guard), this would require to have a separate buget for each work type and wouldnt solve the issue of how do you than value work ? And how would you implement this in game ?
The game does not simulate assets value (1), the nearest thing is wealth.

There is no wealth tax in the budget balance. I am asking to have a wealth tax.

The objective of taxes are clearly to increase the GDP of your nation (2). However, economists and philosopers like Marx and George in the XIX century argued about other types of taxation to allow for less inequality and other reasons. They did not succeded but their ideas were implemented in some nations. I would like to play with these ideas.

Having less GDP but increasing other metrics would allow for a different ranking of nations.

(1) properties like business, buildings, land, have a value. For example, when they are sold they may generate a revenue for the owners. The game cannot tax this source of income nor has a wealth or inheritance tax.

(2) the player is encouraged to spend to develop products and services to increase future tax revenues.
 
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Who benefits of the gouvernement debt interest? I hope it doesn't disappear into the void?
The government's credit limit is based on buildings, so I guess it's paid to buildings' Capital Reserves?

1) So, something that happened back then, that still happens now, is that when a situation like that happens, projects get paralyzed, would that be an option in the game? either voluntarily or forcefully paralize a construction project until there's enough money to keep going (possibly, not fully eliminating it's cost but reducing it to a minimum). This can reflect very realistically also situations in which a vital fort or infraestructure part of a war or a big economical plan founds itself delayed for economic cuts. And would also give the player a bit of more control on their expenses in that way.
In the dev diary you can see one of the settings is the "priority" of construction - there seems to be a "pause" and several different speed options to throw more money at them. I'm not sure if there are options for specific constructions.

I'm actually worried about high the taxes does seem and how one should not expect the poorer strata to not revolt ?
If they're highly and regressively taxed, probably they will! Unless you have enough troops to put down any revolts, of course...
 
Another great Dev Diary.

I am sorry if I have missed this earlier. When changing your income tax level, I assume you have to pass laws from a payroll to a flat tax, but once you are in that tax system do the changes in amount of tax have to pass a legislative body? Do they take time to implement?

If they don't pass a legislative body, can the game be modded to do as such?
 
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Because every pound you collect in taxation is a pound your pops can't spend on fulfilling their needs, so collecting more taxes than you need to pay your expenses is a mistake.

Do you have any data to back up that claim? Because that's not at all how I managed taxes in Vicky 2.
That’s how I played the game. As a country like Turkey, you’re really behind on techs, needing to both stay up to date militarily to avoid getting ganked by Russia and to catch up on industry and education so you can afford the army and navy you need to fight Russia. As a result, the optimal thing to do is not research tax efficiency and instead just set taxes to somewhere around 50-100%, which after inefficiency becomes 15-25%. After all, 25% is a high enough tax rate, so all increased tax efficiency would do is unlock the ability to tax your pops a amount that you don’t want to tax them.
 
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I really hope the final system will still work like a somewhat believable economy.
That's really what it comes down to. We can't know until we get the actual game in our hands, but I suspect the devs have been running a lot of games since before the announcement, and paying attention to how the economy responds and the overall feel of it.

That said, I expect the interaction between the pricing mechanism and money creation/destruction will lead to some odd situations.
 
I think others have asked a similar question but perhaps not directly - What happens to interest payments made? It looks like those payments can/will finally go to the bondholders (domestic businesses), is this true? I believe in V2 that never worked correctly and the money was just destroyed.
 
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Could we have internal tariffs and all kinds of priviliges and exemptions for backward nations like Russia? Could be very interesting gameplay to try to reform it throughout the game or leave it intact.
That sounds like a nice concept for a future DLC/update: allow fragmented, regional markets and add internal trade barriers from laws and taxes.
 
That is actually not a bad idea, no promises but I'll note it down as something we might do.
I feel like dealing with historical debt and economic issues should be the default state around which the game is balanced. If anything the world state which makes things more even with no historical debts should be a rule you have to tick on.

Just saying, the economy would be very hard to balance between the two possible scenarios, and IMO the historical scenario should definitely take priority for balancing in this case.
 
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* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow

Does it have to be this binary? Either "sliders and micromanaging" or "buttons and gameplay". Couldn't there be sliders that go from 0-100% for each strata, the player sets what they think they should be, then it all gets moved as a package to the Parliament (or hits Authority) for the politics/law passing siege system that was shown. That way it takes time (like real politics) and let's you experience things like, maybe it will fail unless you compromise with the aristocracy to pass one of their political goals, or the labor unions stonewalls negotiations until you bump up the upper strata by 10%. Feels like taxes are a pretty big part of politics to just abstract away into buttons.

Maybe the devs already tried this system and it failed, but every time I've seen them talk about it, it's always "You either have sliders and you change them every week or it's buttons," so just wanted to offer my idea.
 
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