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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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The first teaser about government revenue/spending that I saw some months ago left me disappointed for its lack of granularity, but seeing it now it seems actually very good!

I also imagine that there exists multiple types of "income taxes" implemented via laws, right? The one shown here is payroll tax, which seems to have a 4:2:1 ratio on low:middle:upper class income. Can you confirm that there exists other types of taxation that produces different ratios, like a progressive taxation law with reversed ratios? Or some other taxation regime that completely exempt e.g. the upper class?
 
Any Gold Fields the country controls adds a fixed amount of money to the Minting revenue stream.
Now that RGO production is more flexible and responsive to economic pressures has the productivity of gold mining been reduced to a level which is comparable to other fields of emplyment?
In V2 gold mines were always guaranteed to max out workers and they all had complete fullfilment of needs along with huge stored wealth. They were the bling-blingest miners ever. Probably went to work with gold helmets.
On a more serious note it seems like the direct production of a fixed amount of wealth has very interesting economic implications given the way value works. Gold mines provide a sort of baseline the emplyment of which fluctuates in such a way as to help push good prices towards a natural level around their base price. Previously there were discussions about the possibility of all good prices being sustainably depressed given the way value was assigned but if goldmines directly produce a fixed amount then that presumably allows for a way for spending capacity to increase or decrease without a corresponding change in goods supply which would help to correct any long term deflationary or inflationary trends.

In the current system is there a noticable difference in price volatility between those markets which have gold production and those which do not?
 
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I have a question. Would it be possible to raise the soft cap on the Treasury in some way via modding, and can the passive minting be raised by similar means?
Perhaps with a modifier or something in the syntax, or is the treasury hard coded in a way that would prevent that?
 
Given that the debt system we've been presented here is a public debt mechanism, is there going to be an equivalent mechanism of borrowing from other countries? Can/will debt be made part of diplomacy?
 
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I hope that most countries will be running at least some deficit and a lot of it during war. The Paradox games tend to have way too little red in the balance sheets.
 
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No, you receive money from it only to cover expenses for the type of constructions it may be used for.
That's understandable, but then wouldn't it be clearer to put "Money from investment fund" as a Temporary National Income, in the same way as building expenses are in a Temporary National Expenses category?

That would make it easier to separate the fixed stream of revenues and those linked to buildings.

Also, are foreign loans still a thing?
 
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Given that the debt system we've been presented here is a public debt mechanism, is there going to be an equivalent mechanism of borrowing from other countries? Can/will debt be made part of diplomacy?
In the dev diary it was briefly mentioned that another country can assume your debts:
(or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later).
It's not clear whether you can borrow directly from another country instead of borrowing locally and then getting bailed out, but I would assume you can.
 
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I'm not sure if this was already asked, but what about foreign loans? I know you wrote about bailouts, but that's not the same thing.
This could be a legitimate investment + diplomatic move, reroute your overfilling treasury to other countries gaining opinion/influence + interest payments in return.
It be added seamlessly to the current system adding your money to another nations credit limit with a higher priority (they take from you first).

A combination of economic and diplomatic play, you can even tie it to national markets (nations in the same Market can only offer loans to each other, unless they are GPs for instance..)
 
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This sounds like a fantastic improvement on V2, very excited to hear more about tariffs (and potentially even monetary policy!).

Is there any way in which market sentiment will influence the debt ceiling? For example, if you embarked on some radical domestic reforms, you might find that the debt ceiling you previous thought you had start to shrink due to concerns the market have with your ability to repay.
 
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At the moment we don't have this for most countries, I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
Please let countries start out with debt! Asymmetry is fun and ever present in the game already.
 
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Too much coinage will inevitably lead to inflation, and its simulation is also a problem worth thinking about.
Not necessarily. Look at Japan Abenomics, FED with Bernanke and EU under Draghi this last decade.

Printing money does not lead to inflation if there are other forces keeping prices down.

I will like to see inflation in the game related to goods scarcety, POP and buildings consumption, government spending plus minting (1).

For example, if the player nation use goods widely available, prices should not move drastically upwards in case of one uptick of demand as buildings will naturally increase production. The player can tax consumption heavily to mop up the excess POP demand for other scarcer goods and government could spend the extra revenues upgrading welfare to avoid runaway inflation.

Of course, if every nation wants to develop its own steel industry at the same time, there should be inflation. But this inflation is already in the game in the supply/demand formula. Countries that buy goods with higer demand than supply will buy less goods for the same pounds as their cost will increase.

We could ask PDS to show in a ledger a basket of goods prices to show inflation in the game for each country.

(1) Minting is money creation, that will led to inflation if government uses this money to increase goods/services prices by increasing demand over supply.
 
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Please let countries start out with debt! Asymmetry is fun and ever present in the game already.
I agree. The same argument that Wiz has made could be made in relation to- let's say- EU4: "England shouldn't start with a king 0/0/0 because it may not feel good gameplay wise". The asymmetry at the start is actually part of the fun. Plus it's all about context as well- countries don't appear out of vacuum in 1836, there is historical context behind each and financials including debt should be part of this.
 
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Why payroll tax would start out regressive? It can be progressive, regressive or flat and it's perhaps determined when the law is passed.
You can make the rates progressive, but inherently, a payroll tax will fall on income from labor, not income from capital.
 
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am I right if I assume that the quantity of money is neither fixed, nor it increases based on something "real" like the gold mines of Vic2, but rather abstract and money gets created/destroyed from thin air as need be? (I'm especially thinking at the surplus after the treasury soft cap has been reached... where does the lost money go?)
 
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Too bad that there will only be one currency in the game as far as I understand. This means almost no price stability ("inflation") mechanic (so no Weimar) which would add so much depth and realism into the game.
It means that you can't have a currency exchange mechanism. It is too bad because it is used to make one country's exports, that would otherwise be unattractive, more competitive and it would be a great way to give emerging national economies an advantage to catch up.

This leads me to the most important question: Where does all the money in the game even come from? Will central banks play a role in the game? Great thing that minting gets introduced, but apparently it is intended as a small feature and you can only mint little quantities? And it is dependent on your access to gold to respresent a gold standard? Within Victoria 3's time span, the gold standard came and went and it was a policy choice, but in the game, this will be permanent and deeply ingrained into the game. Will minting be the only way new money enters the system?

How are interest rates on national debt determined?

I understand that if you don't have price stability mechanics, you need to limit debts somehow, and limiting it by the size of your national economy is ok from a game dev perspective I guess, but this totally blends out the role that foreign capital played for emerging polities like the US and I don't think that having direct foreign investments in the game is enough. On this note, as far as I know that Greece financed their struggles mainly through lending from capitalists in the UK and such. This is a good example for why a debt ceiling as big as the money pools of your national factories are too limiting.

Playing a smaller nation shouldn't be harder than how it was historically!

Furthermore, I am very excited to read that the game represents ownership of capitalists in factories. Maybe they can be assigned to companies that are listed in an in-game stock index? Or is that the job of our beloved modding community? How moddable will the monetary and economic system be?
 
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Not necessarily. Look at Japan Abenomics, FED with Bernanke and EU under Draghi this last decade.

Printing money does not lead to inflation if there are other forces keeping prices down.

I will like to see inflation in the game related to goods scarcety, POP and buildings consumption, government spending plus minting (1).

For example, if the player nation use goods widely available, prices should not move drastically upwards in case of one uptick of demand as buildings will naturally increase production. The player can tax consumption heavily to mop up the excess POP demand for other scarcer goods and government could spend the extra revenues upgrading welfare to avoid runaway inflation.

Of course, if every nation wants to develop its own steel industry at the same time, there should be inflation. But this inflation is already in the game in the supply/demand formula. Countries that buy goods with higer demand than supply will buy less goods for the same pounds as their cost will increase.

We could ask PDS to show in a ledger a basket of goods prices to show inflation in the game for each country.

(1) Minting is money creation, that will led to inflation if government uses this money to increase goods/services prices by increasing demand over supply.
Based and redpilled, you've read your Kelton.
 
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Based and redpilled, you've read your Kelton.
I am not too keen to go full MMT. I do believe in scarcity and price expectations.

However, the game does not simulate assets, financial or otherwise. There is no monetary policiy either. Thus, we do not need to worry about those now.
 
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There is 5 levels but that doesn't mean there is 5 options, there's a wide variety of different income streams that affect pops differently instead
So if it has to be buttons instead of sliders whatever okay I can accept it.

But I think 5 buttons is an insult. At least put something like 7 or 9 buttons to choose the %… I mean only 5? With only 5 we will always have to choose something much higher or much lower than the % we wanted because there is almost no granularity…
 
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