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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #129 - Discrimination Rework

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Happy Thursday Victorians!
It’s me, Lino and in today’s Dev Diary I’m going to walk you through the upcoming changes to one of the game’s central society features, namely the discrimination system.

Until now, discrimination was always binary in Victoria 3. A Pop either was discriminated against or they were not. This has led to a fairly one-dimensional feature where there’s not a lot of variety in what Pops can be experiencing. It also has made it hard for us to add harsh consequences to discriminated against Pops since it would have affected so many Pops around the world.

So we are taking some steps to make that more interesting. First of all, we’re saying goodbye to talking about discrimination. Instead, we are introducing the opposite, Acceptance.
Each Pop will have an Acceptance value between 0 and 100. This value is determined by the Pop’s country’s laws, in particular the Citizenship and Church & State groups which play the biggest role here. There are other laws that will have an impact, but we are going to talk about those in a later Dev Diary.

Primary cultures are clearly the points of authority when it comes to Acceptance values
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As you can see, the old rules of cultural similarity still apply in the new system. Now though, instead of being immediately accepted if the culture shares a heritage trait, they will gain a high acceptance value bonus for example. This allows a broader range of acceptance, from the cultures that are facing violent hostility to the primary cultures who will always have the highest acceptance value.
The religious impact is changed to provide a bonus if a religion shares a trait with the state religion.

This brings us one step closer to the full picture, but we’re not quite there yet. The Acceptance value actually determines which Acceptance Status a Pop has. There are five possible Statuses, ranging from Full Acceptance to Violent Hostility, which will be used in order to apply consequences to the Pops in question.

Figure.09: WIP list of effects. This is definitely going to change - we’re looking at solutions to make it more readable for release.
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You can see that we are not only reworking the system to fit the new vision, but are also expanding on it with new effects, besides the Acceptance value itself. From simple statistical changes like the tax burden per acceptance status to rules for who can work in government buildings or serve in your military, we have added a decent amount of new things to the laws.
Another factor that determines a Pop’s Acceptance value is the age of the Pop’s cultural community in their state. An immigrant Pop that is "fresh off the boat" will not be as accepted as that of another culture which has been there for 30 years already. No matter what your laws say, your Pops will need some time to get used to the new faces in their neighborhood–but, eventually, the new arrivals will reach the Acceptance value which the laws have determined for them.

“Have you seen the looks they gave us? By myself, I couldn’t stay here, but with you by my side I know I will make it.”
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Of course you can still improve your Pops’ situation by enacting more progressive laws. These provide higher acceptance bonuses to cultures. For example Ethnostate doesn’t grant any bonus to cultures that share a non-heritage cultural trait with your primary culture, but National Supremacy grants +25 acceptance if they do.

Alright, so you passed Multiculturalism, but you didn’t think your Pops would immediately hug and welcome the people they were despising yesterday, did you?
Law enactments that increase a Pop’s Acceptance value will suffer from a penalty much the same as the newly established cultural communities, which will decay over time. This shows the establishment of these new laws quite well and delays the full effectiveness of the more progressive laws.

Another thing we are changing is conversion and assimilation (so that your Pops can escape from the undesirable lower statuses of Acceptance).
When 1.8 comes out later this year, Pops will be able to assimilate and convert to any culture or religion that would provide them with a higher acceptance value, even if it is not the primary culture or state religion. There is a minimum assimilation value difference that needs to be crossed in order for them to be eligible. For example if their current Acceptance is at 25 and the minimum assimilation value difference from the Citizenship law is defined at 50, their target’s culture Acceptance would need to be 75 or higher in order for them to assimilate.
This still looks at cultures that are present in the same state, so if none of them have a value of 75 or higher, the assimilation could not happen. The assimilation process may also still be forbidden by laws, e.g. under all laws it is currently not allowed for members of the lowest status to assimilate at all. Similarly, Pops of the highest status also do not assimilate in the current setup, as they already possess enough rights and privileges to enjoy a good life.

All of these changes require a fairly substantial rework of our interface. A lot is currently still in development and is coming in pieces, so you will have to discover it on your own, but I still wanted to provide you with a faint idea of what’s coming.
The Cultures panel has been renamed to Society, which fits better since it also includes Statuses and Religion. The acceptance statuses are listed in a new tab, providing an overview of what percentage of Pops falls under which status and who exactly that is.

WIP interface showing the breakdown of acceptance statuses in your country
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In the end, we hope this feature rework will enhance your experience with regards to managing your Pops and that it will show much more variety in the Pops’ lives. Especially on the lower end of the spectrum, you should see a lot more consequences, as sad as that is.
This rework is an important step for us, since we can make better use of this system in future narrative content too, and we also have some ideas for future mechanical changes that require this rework as a foundation.

That’s all for today. Next week, on October 3, I’m handing it back to Martin again, who will provide some more information on what we’re doing with civil wars. That should be an interesting one, be sure to check it out!
 
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Will any other temporary factors influence acceptance? I’m especially thinking of lobbies - surely the French living in my country would be negatively affected by a loud and influential Anti-French League.
 
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This looks great, but I also share concerns about the ability to convert to other cultures to escape discrimination leading to weird outcomes (ex. Ashkenazi converting to Irish in the USA).
 
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  1. So how would things like waves of nativism be modelled under this system? Random events that decrease acceptance of all cultures that don't have full acceptance?
  2. Is assimilation restricted by heritage? I didn't notice that in the assimilation section and I think it would be kind of weird if fx Bantu culture pops can assimilate into Tunisian pops based on their irl treatment
Beyond those this looks really good
 
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This is an important one, many thanks! So do I understand it right that:

1. Population with non accepted culture but with state religion will now be more accepted than in previous version? Would for example having state religion increase acceptance bonus tied to religion?
Somewhat, yes (depending on laws).
Assuming your Pop's culture has no shared traits with a primary one and your country has Ethnostate active, but their religion is the same and you have the State Religion law active, their acceptance would be at 20 (+0 from Ethnostate due to no shared traits, +20 from sharing the religion).
So they would be pretty far on the bottom, just barely making it to the second acceptance status.

2. Will populations from non accepted cultures now be able to assimilate to accepted ones if, say, they are already converted to state religion?
Their religion will not really matter for assimilation in this case. What matters is that their acceptance is a lot lower than their new culture.
On the lowest level, no assimilation can happen, but as soon as Pops cross into the second lowest, they can assimilate. We all have to get used to being more specific about what we mean by "being accepted" since there's a value behind it now. :D
 
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Another thing we are changing is conversion and assimilation (so that your Pops can escape from the undesirable lower statuses of Acceptance).
When 1.8 comes out later this year, Pops will be able to assimilate and convert to any culture or religion that would provide them with a higher acceptance value, even if it is not the primary culture or state religion. There is a minimum assimilation value difference that needs to be crossed in order for them to be eligible. For example if their current Acceptance is at 25 and the minimum assimilation value difference from the Citizenship law is defined at 50, their target’s culture Acceptance would need to be 75 or higher in order for them to assimilate.

Im not sure i get this... So if pops are "a bit discriminated" they wont assimilate, but if they are "very discriminated" they will? Does that make sense with the EIC or with afro-american cultures in the USA?
Not sure if pops assimilating to a different heritage makes any sense whatsoever... Feels like their race just gets erased.
 
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This seems like it could have bizarre consequences? Like new African migrants to Australia turning Chinese to become more accepted.
For now: Yes, that can happen.
But we're looking at potentially adding restrictions like heritage. That's gonna upset the balance in major fashion though, so we'll have to investigate in a bit more detail first before making a call.
What seems like a decent compromise to us is that we make Pops highly prefer assimilation to cultures of same heritage, so that it'd happen less often. We'll have to see how much more we can get done on that front.
 
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Will politicians, military leaders, and agitators now spawn from non-primary cultures? I would like to have a Xhosa as president of South Africa on my next campaign (see attached screenshots)
 

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Will there be other variable besides laws and establishment time that effect acceptance? Are you in the stages of considering if the culture was a slave culture, if it is a colonial culture of your nation, wealth or economic situation of the pops, how multicultural your nation already is (as many multicultural nations had to be more accepting out of necessity , urbanisation, IG make up of the culture, whether they serve in the military etc ?
 
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How will the Algerian Deparments JE for France look under the acceptance mechanics? Will the Arabs and Berbers in the three Algerian states require the highest status instead of non-discrimination?
 
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I do hope that the opportunity is taken at this point to make some space in the game for "religious nationalism" to be a thing - i.e. a state where your religion is a larger contributing factor (or at least a very signifcant contibutor) towards acceptance than culture.

I'm thinking mostly of the Ottomans when I say this as their (failed) attempts to form an "Ottoman" national identity was largely focused around certain institutions, especially the state religion. Sokoto might also be a decent example.
 
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The new system seems to be way more realistic and I'm looking forward to it!

Will there be other factors influencing the acceptance scores than just laws?

Thank you for all the work you are putting into improving the game!
Thanks for the kind words!
Living in cultural homeland will improve acceptance. Apart from that, there are only the penalties described in the Dev Diary from recently appearing in a state and law enactments.
This system does open up some avenues for us to play with in the future though and we already have some plans for further additions in the future. Narrative content is another whole block which could make more use of this, so we'll likely experiment with that in the future I'd imagine.
 
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Could we get some visibility on the actual law changes? I think it's hard to comprehend what this means otherwise.

If you conquer an area (e.g., France conquers Dahomey) and the locals are now legally discriminated, what happens now to the local elite/educated officials of the discriminated culture? Does it take time for them to become discriminated?
 
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Is there a penalty when a more conservative law is enacted instead, so that pops don't suddenly hate their neighbors?

And also, is the penalty after a change in law affected by anything or is it a static value? For example, could it be modified by the level of the police institution, representing the authorities actively fighting or encouraging discrimination?
 
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previously we only had 5 laws since cultures can only be categorized into 5 categories i.e. primary, shared heritage trait and cultural trait etc.. With the new system do you plan to add more laws? For example a "weak" multiculturalism where different heritage only gets +80 acceptance vs a "true" multiculturalism where every culture gets +100 acceptance?

also I'm not seeing homeland getting mentioned in this DD. can you consider adding homeland related mechanics, giving pops in homeland extra acceptance with value determined by law?
 
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The different levels are nice, but everybody was expecting societal discrimination the state just can't do anything about.

This system is still 100% driven by laws, with just a timed decay modifier slapped on top.
 
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Will a non primary culture with an acceptance score of say 85 still be able to assimilate to the primary culture? This could cause many different cultures to be assimilated to and have big populations. Such as lots of Englishmen in America, and a new Frenchman may assimilate to English instead of Yankee, then the English since they have a really high acceptance just never assimilate to Yankee
 
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