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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #129 - Discrimination Rework

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Happy Thursday Victorians!
It’s me, Lino and in today’s Dev Diary I’m going to walk you through the upcoming changes to one of the game’s central society features, namely the discrimination system.

Until now, discrimination was always binary in Victoria 3. A Pop either was discriminated against or they were not. This has led to a fairly one-dimensional feature where there’s not a lot of variety in what Pops can be experiencing. It also has made it hard for us to add harsh consequences to discriminated against Pops since it would have affected so many Pops around the world.

So we are taking some steps to make that more interesting. First of all, we’re saying goodbye to talking about discrimination. Instead, we are introducing the opposite, Acceptance.
Each Pop will have an Acceptance value between 0 and 100. This value is determined by the Pop’s country’s laws, in particular the Citizenship and Church & State groups which play the biggest role here. There are other laws that will have an impact, but we are going to talk about those in a later Dev Diary.

Primary cultures are clearly the points of authority when it comes to Acceptance values
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As you can see, the old rules of cultural similarity still apply in the new system. Now though, instead of being immediately accepted if the culture shares a heritage trait, they will gain a high acceptance value bonus for example. This allows a broader range of acceptance, from the cultures that are facing violent hostility to the primary cultures who will always have the highest acceptance value.
The religious impact is changed to provide a bonus if a religion shares a trait with the state religion.

This brings us one step closer to the full picture, but we’re not quite there yet. The Acceptance value actually determines which Acceptance Status a Pop has. There are five possible Statuses, ranging from Full Acceptance to Violent Hostility, which will be used in order to apply consequences to the Pops in question.

Figure.09: WIP list of effects. This is definitely going to change - we’re looking at solutions to make it more readable for release.
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You can see that we are not only reworking the system to fit the new vision, but are also expanding on it with new effects, besides the Acceptance value itself. From simple statistical changes like the tax burden per acceptance status to rules for who can work in government buildings or serve in your military, we have added a decent amount of new things to the laws.
Another factor that determines a Pop’s Acceptance value is the age of the Pop’s cultural community in their state. An immigrant Pop that is "fresh off the boat" will not be as accepted as that of another culture which has been there for 30 years already. No matter what your laws say, your Pops will need some time to get used to the new faces in their neighborhood–but, eventually, the new arrivals will reach the Acceptance value which the laws have determined for them.

“Have you seen the looks they gave us? By myself, I couldn’t stay here, but with you by my side I know I will make it.”
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Of course you can still improve your Pops’ situation by enacting more progressive laws. These provide higher acceptance bonuses to cultures. For example Ethnostate doesn’t grant any bonus to cultures that share a non-heritage cultural trait with your primary culture, but National Supremacy grants +25 acceptance if they do.

Alright, so you passed Multiculturalism, but you didn’t think your Pops would immediately hug and welcome the people they were despising yesterday, did you?
Law enactments that increase a Pop’s Acceptance value will suffer from a penalty much the same as the newly established cultural communities, which will decay over time. This shows the establishment of these new laws quite well and delays the full effectiveness of the more progressive laws.

Another thing we are changing is conversion and assimilation (so that your Pops can escape from the undesirable lower statuses of Acceptance).
When 1.8 comes out later this year, Pops will be able to assimilate and convert to any culture or religion that would provide them with a higher acceptance value, even if it is not the primary culture or state religion. There is a minimum assimilation value difference that needs to be crossed in order for them to be eligible. For example if their current Acceptance is at 25 and the minimum assimilation value difference from the Citizenship law is defined at 50, their target’s culture Acceptance would need to be 75 or higher in order for them to assimilate.
This still looks at cultures that are present in the same state, so if none of them have a value of 75 or higher, the assimilation could not happen. The assimilation process may also still be forbidden by laws, e.g. under all laws it is currently not allowed for members of the lowest status to assimilate at all. Similarly, Pops of the highest status also do not assimilate in the current setup, as they already possess enough rights and privileges to enjoy a good life.

All of these changes require a fairly substantial rework of our interface. A lot is currently still in development and is coming in pieces, so you will have to discover it on your own, but I still wanted to provide you with a faint idea of what’s coming.
The Cultures panel has been renamed to Society, which fits better since it also includes Statuses and Religion. The acceptance statuses are listed in a new tab, providing an overview of what percentage of Pops falls under which status and who exactly that is.

WIP interface showing the breakdown of acceptance statuses in your country
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In the end, we hope this feature rework will enhance your experience with regards to managing your Pops and that it will show much more variety in the Pops’ lives. Especially on the lower end of the spectrum, you should see a lot more consequences, as sad as that is.
This rework is an important step for us, since we can make better use of this system in future narrative content too, and we also have some ideas for future mechanical changes that require this rework as a foundation.

That’s all for today. Next week, on October 3, I’m handing it back to Martin again, who will provide some more information on what we’re doing with civil wars. That should be an interesting one, be sure to check it out!
 
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I also feel that colonization laws should play a role in all of this, even if I had multiculturalism and total separation, I'd still imagine the natives getting displaced in my colonies wouldn't be having a good time about as long as I'm doing the colonialism.
 
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Can you be more specific on what you mean with "difficulty"?
AI ability to effectively pursue a goal, colonise, take resources and contain as much as possible your expansion when you become a strong power (don't you think that UK should be worried that you, as Prussia, united Germany and are on track to become the greatest power?). Total War series had (don't know now, it's been a while since I last played one of their games) a plain negative acceptance of trade agreement by AI countries when you were strong; of course this is an expedient but it shows the contemplation of a future state of inferiority and their mental work to avoid it.
 
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An excellent improvement, please do spend as much time as you can plugging this into the other systems!
Most importantly, of course, getting rid of 'discrimination' gets rid of the horrific grammar in tooltips and the forum :D
 
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Cultural homelands provide a small bonus to a Pop's cultural acceptance, but that's about it for now. See my other replies for potential future additions.
With the new more detailed system, will a pop been present in its cultural homeland still completelly block assimilation? Specially when that homeland is shared I think it shouldn't, to interact better with the new system and mske it more dynamic.

And at the same time, from your other answers, will too high acceptance block assimilation in any other case?

I feel like in the new system it would make more sense homelands blocked assimilation for "accepted" pops, but otherwise those pops still assimilated. Even if it is a reduced rate. It would probably be good for both realism and gameplay. Having a patchwork of small pops of many cultures its something that we wanted to avoid already for performance purposes, and in game for display isnt the best either. And it feels like any mutlicuralist state would face this now in this setup.
 
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Does this mean that the countless African heritage pops in Brazil will finally be able to assimilate into being Afro-Brazillian. Also, will Lacustrine Bantu pops be able to convert to Sudanese/Somali if they're slaves in the Arab world.
 
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I like what I am reading ;)

I could imagine this beeing tied into diplomacy in the future as well, e.g. higher acceptance of primary culture pops of overlord/allies, lower acceptance of the pops of primary culture of rivals/enemies during war/under truce.
IIRC effects like this also played a major role e.g. in the assimilation of german immigrants in america (largely giving up their ancestors language during WW1)
 
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Another factor that determines a Pop’s Acceptance value is the age of the Pop’s cultural community in their state. An immigrant Pop that is "fresh off the boat" will not be as accepted as that of another culture which has been there for 30 years already. No matter what your laws say, your Pops will need some time to get used to the new faces in their neighborhood–but, eventually, the new arrivals will reach the Acceptance value which the laws have determined for them.

Is this tracked per pop or per culture in your nation or per state? Say a pop splits because it changes profession does it have to go through that 30 year period again. Or if you have had 100 people pop in your country for 30 years and suddenly there is an influx of 10s of thousands do they immediately get accepted to the level of those100? Neither situation is ideal.

Another question. Is there a way for regulatory bodies/workers protection institution to force equal wage if pops aren't legally discriminated? Even if they are not fully accepted? With each level of institution closing the gap per 20%. To represent that the government needs to actively enforce against discrimination it doesn't agree with.
 
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MAYBE we'll have time to add one more law which should cover a somewhat specific use case which I don't want to mention yet in case we don't get to it :p
But it would affect homelands actually :)

You're right, I haven't mentioned homelands in the DD, but it is actually going to provide a bonus to acceptance when pops live in their cultural homeland.
Ulster?
 
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@PDX_H4n1baL

Something i though from a tinto talk that could help with the assimilation of different heritage : why not separating the culture in 2 components ?

The culture itself (aka way of life, social construct) and the ethnicity ( aka skin colour, body feature ; the genetic side).

It become easy to have all the combinations with few ethnicity : latino, caucasian, east-asian, south-east asian, sub-saharan african, arabic (sorry turks), central asian, aryan indian.

I guess that is too much work for this update though.
 
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A very welcomming feature indeed! This could provide a base for a system where the player can intervene more into the buildup of their society.
Have you thought about including buidlings or institutions for simulating the process that migrating pops would go through while integrating into another society? This could add more decision making to the migration gameplay, because at the moment the only direct controll you have over migration is in decrees and laws.
Not really. I'm not sure how much value this would really add.
But maybe I'm misunderstanding your suggestion. What would the buildings do? Do they act as a capacity for how many pops can migrate? Similar for the institution. What would be their purpose?
 
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@PDX_H4n1baL

Something i though from a tinto talk that could help with the assimilation of different heritage : why not separating the culture in 2 components ?

The culture itself (aka way of life, social construct) and the ethnicity ( aka skin colour, body feature ; the genetic side).

It become easy to have all the combinations with few ethnicity : latino, caucasian, east-asian, south-east asian, sub-saharan african, arabic (sorry turks), central asian, aryan indian.

I guess that is too much work for this update though.
Because you would multiply the number of Pops in the game. That would be a huge burden on performance is the short answer.
 
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2 Questions:

A) Is assimilation still forbidden in Homelands? E.g can Hungarians assimialte if their acceptence status is low enought? (I really hope so=
I believe we left the rule in place. It also seems sensible to me. What would be your main arguments for changing it?
B) One of the effect states: "Can work in Military Buildings." Does this include conscription? If yes can you please split it up in Conscription ajnd Standing Army and if no can you please add one for conscription?
It currently includes any military buildings. I'll add it to our list of things to consider for a future version though. Thanks :)
 
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Beautiful additions here :)

Can we also, even not within multiculturalism be able to elevate a culture to a status of accepted even if not within the current law (like you can accept cultures in eu4 for instance)

to give an example, when i annex Siam, i would like to have the domicile culture there to be respected and have full citizenship, but under my country rule, i would like for them to not be assimilated even if i have assimilation laws but that they grow and expand their populace, and not be overrun by ie. chinese immigrants that flock to my expanding industry there

maybe its a bit too niche or granular but id like to know its even possible down the line
Nothing like that is currently planned. So you don't handpick the cultures and decide their acceptance status, but rather make changes to the big picture.
I could see us adding things the player can use to affect acceptance of certain cultures or in certain regions in the future, but none are guaranteed as of right now.
 
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How difficult would it be to allow cultures to dynamically form during gameplay?
Quite difficult. We've talked about the general idea of this internally, but are unlikely to make steps in that regard anytime soon.

Africans turning Chinese to escape discrimination seems like it would be less of an issue if African immigrants could form, say, an Afro-Australian culture instead. Pops jumping heritages every decade doesn’t make sense, but as you said, disallowing it would wreak havoc on game balance.
I'd like to stress again that this is already happening in the game. As long as a culture is accepted, they can assimilate into a primary culture that's not sharing their heritage.
But also I wanna stress again, we will look at heritage restrictions for release. I can't announce how our solution will look like exactly at this point, but we are absolutely aware of it.
 
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Is the delay between passing an accepting law and the change in pop attitudes set in stone, or can it vary?

On the one hand, yes there are societies where the law led to to attitudinal change within 10 or so years. On the other hand, the 14th and 15th amendments were ratified in 1866-69 and yet one hundred years later, African Americans were still being treated with Violent Hostility, to use the terminology of the new acceptance mechanic.
Currently it is fixed.
We could maybe make it dynamic dependent on what law you are changing or maybe even how your society is composed (?) in the future.
 
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Are the thresholds close to final? It seems from the image that 50+ acceptance leads to full acceptance, which might mean all Europeans would just accept even more freely then they do in 1.7: e.g. Prussia would accept Polish pops with national supremacy.
The threshold are every 20 points per status level.
So the full acceptance status is reached with 80+ acceptance.
 
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one thing I love about this new approach to discrimination is how many more possibilities it opens for decisions, so as questions:

1. will there be modifications to some technologies like nationalism to add on the discrimination value against certain pops in general? e.g. having researched nationalism already applies a permanent modifier and then for example the research of pan-nationalism or multiculturalism will change or dampen said modifier (which could have both positive and negative effects depending on what pops). that way it is not only what laws you have that influence discrimination but also what your population "learns" about it and in my opinion depicts discriminating (or accepting) movements a bit better.

2. will there be more decisions (as in decisions in the journal tab) to bolster/suppress acceptance of certain pops for specific nations? as example in austria having the decision to bolster hungarian acceptance, in germany supressing jewish acceptance or in russia supressing circassian acceptance (I'm sure there would be way more nations/cultures/religions that could have such decisions in the game).

great change non the less!
 
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I believe we left the rule in place. It also seems sensible to me. What would be your main arguments for changing it?

It currently includes any military buildings. I'll add it to our list of things to consider for a future version though. Thanks :)

Regarding the homeland rule. Assimilation is always a game mechanic. Because in RL people do not really change their culture. And with the homeland thing in place, there will not be much assimilation as it is now. Only the pops that emigrate would assimilate. Id really like to see a system where people dont magically stay oppressed in their homelands and assimilate 1 region over.

For example, why would Hungarians assimilate in Austria but not in Central Hungary? Both belong to the Austrian Empire, so they are equally unaccepted.
This was also a problem in VIC2 (replacing homelands with cores) and was solved by removing said cores via decisions.

I would get rid of the whole homeland rule altogether and stick to if they are oppressed enough then they will assimilate. If you want to have some interesting gameplay with homelands, make them give a bonus to targeted assimilations.

For example, a Serb in Hungary would assimilate to Hungarian rather than Austrian.

An alternative would be to have homelands give an acceptance bonus to the new system.


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On the second question. I am glad to hear that there will not be hundreds of brigades from colonies just because they have the pops.
 
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