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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #129 - Discrimination Rework

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Happy Thursday Victorians!
It’s me, Lino and in today’s Dev Diary I’m going to walk you through the upcoming changes to one of the game’s central society features, namely the discrimination system.

Until now, discrimination was always binary in Victoria 3. A Pop either was discriminated against or they were not. This has led to a fairly one-dimensional feature where there’s not a lot of variety in what Pops can be experiencing. It also has made it hard for us to add harsh consequences to discriminated against Pops since it would have affected so many Pops around the world.

So we are taking some steps to make that more interesting. First of all, we’re saying goodbye to talking about discrimination. Instead, we are introducing the opposite, Acceptance.
Each Pop will have an Acceptance value between 0 and 100. This value is determined by the Pop’s country’s laws, in particular the Citizenship and Church & State groups which play the biggest role here. There are other laws that will have an impact, but we are going to talk about those in a later Dev Diary.

Primary cultures are clearly the points of authority when it comes to Acceptance values
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As you can see, the old rules of cultural similarity still apply in the new system. Now though, instead of being immediately accepted if the culture shares a heritage trait, they will gain a high acceptance value bonus for example. This allows a broader range of acceptance, from the cultures that are facing violent hostility to the primary cultures who will always have the highest acceptance value.
The religious impact is changed to provide a bonus if a religion shares a trait with the state religion.

This brings us one step closer to the full picture, but we’re not quite there yet. The Acceptance value actually determines which Acceptance Status a Pop has. There are five possible Statuses, ranging from Full Acceptance to Violent Hostility, which will be used in order to apply consequences to the Pops in question.

Figure.09: WIP list of effects. This is definitely going to change - we’re looking at solutions to make it more readable for release.
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You can see that we are not only reworking the system to fit the new vision, but are also expanding on it with new effects, besides the Acceptance value itself. From simple statistical changes like the tax burden per acceptance status to rules for who can work in government buildings or serve in your military, we have added a decent amount of new things to the laws.
Another factor that determines a Pop’s Acceptance value is the age of the Pop’s cultural community in their state. An immigrant Pop that is "fresh off the boat" will not be as accepted as that of another culture which has been there for 30 years already. No matter what your laws say, your Pops will need some time to get used to the new faces in their neighborhood–but, eventually, the new arrivals will reach the Acceptance value which the laws have determined for them.

“Have you seen the looks they gave us? By myself, I couldn’t stay here, but with you by my side I know I will make it.”
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Of course you can still improve your Pops’ situation by enacting more progressive laws. These provide higher acceptance bonuses to cultures. For example Ethnostate doesn’t grant any bonus to cultures that share a non-heritage cultural trait with your primary culture, but National Supremacy grants +25 acceptance if they do.

Alright, so you passed Multiculturalism, but you didn’t think your Pops would immediately hug and welcome the people they were despising yesterday, did you?
Law enactments that increase a Pop’s Acceptance value will suffer from a penalty much the same as the newly established cultural communities, which will decay over time. This shows the establishment of these new laws quite well and delays the full effectiveness of the more progressive laws.

Another thing we are changing is conversion and assimilation (so that your Pops can escape from the undesirable lower statuses of Acceptance).
When 1.8 comes out later this year, Pops will be able to assimilate and convert to any culture or religion that would provide them with a higher acceptance value, even if it is not the primary culture or state religion. There is a minimum assimilation value difference that needs to be crossed in order for them to be eligible. For example if their current Acceptance is at 25 and the minimum assimilation value difference from the Citizenship law is defined at 50, their target’s culture Acceptance would need to be 75 or higher in order for them to assimilate.
This still looks at cultures that are present in the same state, so if none of them have a value of 75 or higher, the assimilation could not happen. The assimilation process may also still be forbidden by laws, e.g. under all laws it is currently not allowed for members of the lowest status to assimilate at all. Similarly, Pops of the highest status also do not assimilate in the current setup, as they already possess enough rights and privileges to enjoy a good life.

All of these changes require a fairly substantial rework of our interface. A lot is currently still in development and is coming in pieces, so you will have to discover it on your own, but I still wanted to provide you with a faint idea of what’s coming.
The Cultures panel has been renamed to Society, which fits better since it also includes Statuses and Religion. The acceptance statuses are listed in a new tab, providing an overview of what percentage of Pops falls under which status and who exactly that is.

WIP interface showing the breakdown of acceptance statuses in your country
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In the end, we hope this feature rework will enhance your experience with regards to managing your Pops and that it will show much more variety in the Pops’ lives. Especially on the lower end of the spectrum, you should see a lot more consequences, as sad as that is.
This rework is an important step for us, since we can make better use of this system in future narrative content too, and we also have some ideas for future mechanical changes that require this rework as a foundation.

That’s all for today. Next week, on October 3, I’m handing it back to Martin again, who will provide some more information on what we’re doing with civil wars. That should be an interesting one, be sure to check it out!
 
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I believe we left the rule in place. It also seems sensible to me. What would be your main arguments for changing it?
After playing the game for a while, it always struck me as very restrictive. That you just can't ever assimilate a pop in their homeland, which removes all idea of pushing your culture onto a minority in your country. It's also not really historical, as either by force, or just out of a want to better their situation, the minorities were experiencing some assimilation. It's just the case, that assimilation will always be a pretty niche thing, unless it's somewhat allowed in homelands. It's just about making colonial nations more culturally homogeneous.

I had an Austria game, where I would purposely build Austria itself, so all pops would migrate there, and assimilate... but that also meant, I had to accept all of them, and it all just felt so gamey and uninteresting.

I would want assimilation to happen in homelands, but not for the rule to just go away completely. Maybe homelands should reduce assimilation, that you can only get it, if you stack enough other modifiers, or that you need to actively set up a culture policy against a culture, to specify, that you actively choose to force their assimilation (maybe at cost of Acceptance of Turmoil).

It feels uninteresting to see pops just go "we are discriminated Shia pops, but look... it's one accepted Sunni guy! Everyone start converting!" in the middle of their own homeland. So I am not too keen on the rule just being removed. It should just be more of a soft cap, than a hard one - and can be a feature for the future to add, while keeping the rule for now.
 
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Let me try to think of something for societal prejudice:

We have five Acceptance tiers right now: Hostility (1), Erasure (2), Prejudice (3), Second-rate (4), Full (5). A lower tier Pop always wants to go up, as in, they always want to live in a state where their Acceptance would be higher. This should impact their Migration Attraction and Job Satisfaction.

Buildings are owned by somebody. The ideologies of the owner should have an impact on who they hire. Government buildings merely follow the law; buildings owned by Pops will instead follow its IGT's ideologies: Farms owned by Fascist Aristocrats will probably hire t1 pops at a much lower rate than t2 and so on. They might, however, *economically* prefer to hire t2 and t3 to the higher tiers because of the lower wages, but they are *ideologically* against hiring t1. This could maybe be tied to the "strongly agree" stances from their ideologies etc.

If I come from another nation (tag), I'll have that nasty Local Acceptance modifier; moving across states (inside the same tag, screw the market) does not affect my current Local Acceptance. Besides that, Pops of a higher tier than mine will have an impact on their Radicalism depending on how many Pops of lower tiers there are, but only if they are under their desired SOL. So as long as the degenerates stay in their place, the good citizens will be unphazed. If the economy flounders and they don't have their wine, they'll get a lot more mad than usual that those destitutes are stealing their jobs (and wine).
 
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@PDX_H4n1baL Can you please enable cultural assimilation in homelands?

Homelands should maybe slow assimilation, but not disable it completely.

A clear example is Occitan POPs in South France being unable to assimilate to French culture.
 
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How do the linguistic traits like Francophone or Lusophone tie into acceptance? I recall that historically discrimination based on their country of origin was quite common and using the linguistic traits could be a good way to simulate something like a French immigrant to the US being more accepted than an Italian one since both are of European Heritage.
 
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@PDX_H4n1baL Can you please enable cultural assimilation in homelands?

Homelands should maybe slow assimilation, but not disable it completely.

A clear example is Occitan POPs in South France being unable to assimilate to French culture.
The assimilation of France's subcultures was forced through mandatory school and forbiding the use of local language at school.
Having a decree that allows assimilation to the main culture in minority's homeland could reflect that for the time being.
 
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The assimilation of France's subcultures was forced through mandatory school and forbiding the use of local language at school.
Having a decree that allows assimilation to the main culture in minority's homeland could reflect that for the time being.
I think that's a reasonable compromise. (Though to be honest, personally I don't think it should be necessary)
However it's done, *something* should be done to allow for assimilation in homelands in at least some circumstances.
 
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I appreciate the rework for simple or bad systems and i am excited to use them in the future, but at the moment i think there are much much more importand issues in the game, for example the diplomacy, while very advanced with a lot of options, in the end everyone can just jump on your play for almost nothing and start ww2 right from the start, and the game ai is still very strange and bad in diplomacy. As a Japan player(i really like rise from the bottom and build a new empire) the game is just awfull at the moment sometimes they want to open my marked in 1850 and i have delay it for so long in order to get meji and even longer for him to have his son taisho and sometimes nothing happens and i have to somehow get rid of the shogunate myself or they just try and conquer my coal states ... really funny. The system for the meji restauration is just duktape on the latest patch that changed the ownership system
 
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Paradox should work on an alternative history DLC where Napoleon defeated all the coalitions and where Louisiana is led by an exiled Bourbon, we find some mods on it (not all up to date) which are successful and there is a real demand players on alternate histories.
Well, I know this has nothing to do with the subject but if a guy from Paradox comes by...
 
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Paradox should work on an alternative history DLC where Napoleon defeated all the coalitions and where Louisiana is led by an exiled Bourbon, we find some mods on it (not all up to date) which are successful and there is a real demand players on alternate histories.
Well, I know this has nothing to do with the subject but if a guy from Paradox comes by...
Correct this is not the thread for this.
 
@PDX_H4n1baL Can you please enable cultural assimilation in homelands?

Homelands should maybe slow assimilation, but not disable it completely.

A clear example is Occitan POPs in South France being unable to assimilate to French culture.
Isn’t the case with this rework that POPs in middle acceptance status would be assimilated?

Being in their homelands will give them a bonus to acceptance but that may or may not be enough to get those POPs above the lowest status or reach the highest acceptance status, hence they will be assimilated to the accepted culture they are more accepted (depending on the current law threshold).

So, if I am not wrong, being in your homelands is not a decisive factor, but may even increase your chances to get assimilated.
 
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What kind of negative effects, though?
Possibly:
Radicalization of both native and immigrant pops as immigrant numbers increase, with them joining anti-immigrant and ethnic identity political groups respectively
Loss of control in states with high percentages of non-primary culture, representing their lack of cultural loyalty to your country
Literacy maluses, representing the issues caused by lack of a common language
 
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Isn’t the case with this rework that POPs in middle acceptance status would be assimilated?

Being in their homelands will give them a bonus to acceptance but that may or may not be enough to get those POPs above the lowest status or reach the highest acceptance status, hence they will be assimilated to the accepted culture they are more accepted (depending on the current law threshold).

So, if I am not wrong, being in your homelands is not a decisive factor, but may even increase your chances to get assimilated.
It was mentioned that the current rule of "homeland cultures not being able to assimilate" will stay in place.

While this makes some sense from a balance perspective, it is ahistorical and likely could be better modeled by modifiers (i.e., harsh assimilation penalties) or other systems.

If you go through the thread, you will see that many of us are in support of a change, but I suspect that this is a sensitive subject. If not that, then maybe it is just a legacy leftover from Victora 2 (possibly 1), since this rule was hardcoded in the game.
 
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Not really. I'm not sure how much value this would really add.
But maybe I'm misunderstanding your suggestion. What would the buildings do? Do they act as a capacity for how many pops can migrate? Similar for the institution. What would be their purpose?
I would have thought of them as increasing or decreasing the acceptance score or assimilation rate on a per state basis. Maybe it could be a production method on government buildings, that would let you choose between bureaucracy and acceptance score / assimilation rate. This would create a tradeoff between creating beurocracy for your institutions helping primary culture pops or influencing how immigrating pops integrate into your society.
That way nations that rely heavily on migration would have higher goverment costs if they want the new pops to integrate or could choose to keep them at lower acceptance for longer risking more radicals but saving money.
 
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This system would enable de facto cultural autonomy to selected pops, and reasons for this can be various, I personally have reasons of historical realism and historical fantasy for the most part, and for role play reasons: like one part of my empire has been ravaged and bled for decades in war and I want to elevate them above all other non primary culture pops, as a token of gratitude, however I do not want to lose permanent control over the area and it's military capability
That's interesting but what would be the gameplay effect ? From here it just look like a "no more discrimination" choice without any drawbacks. Maybe an increase in nationalism and events where they ask for independence if the economy is degrading ?
 
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That's interesting but what would be the gameplay effect ? From here it just look like a "no more discrimination" choice without any drawbacks. Maybe an increase in nationalism and events where they ask for independence if the economy is degrading ?
Usually the historical drawback is that anyone else not getting the same treatment gets more and more annoyed

So gameplay wise maybe for each accepted culture you get a -X malus to general acceptance modifier, even for primary culture? And depending on cultural similarity to primary it gets reduced

Because your primary pops would feel non special due to your accepting someone as their equal

To top the mechanic off you can add a bureaucracy fee for maintenance of the accepted culture, after all, they do need different papers right?

Depending on the values you could get a very balanced mechanic
 
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For PoP's assimilating from a different Heritage and/or different language, I would like to see an intermediate step, where they adopt the culture, but the PoP itself gets a Heritage tag. So, for instance, a South Italian moving to the U.S. would assimilate to Yankee, but get tagged as Italian Heritage. They then would need to assimilate again to become true Yankee. A The PoP tagged with a different heritage tag would get a malus to their Acceptance. Similarly, a Han PoP in California would assimilate to Yankee, but get the Han Heritage flag. Since Han originally had a differing Heritage (East Asian as opposed to European), then they would receive an even greater malus to Acceptance. The biggest problem with this system is it could definitely affect performance, as you would now have more smaller PoPs floating around.
 
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This new system is very promising as the the discrimination mechanics weren't sufficient to portray the situation in many countries while gameplay-wise didn't offer any nuance. Looking forward to seeing it in the game. I hope that countries like Ottomans won't need to chase multiculturalism to avoid a radicalization spiral.
 
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As other people pointed out earlier in the thread, this sounds like the old systems with more levels. The state decrees that foreigners are now accepted, then the population proceeds to abandon its prejudices and welcome them. Multiculturalism is still the way to go. That feels... off.

And it sounds really weird to have people assimilate from one Heritage (aka "race") to another. I mean, it can account for things like interracial marriages, but it's not like cultural assimilation where the pops can make a conscious decision to assimilate.
 
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I have to say, I'm deeply concerned. This looks like its basically the exact same thing as before only with a timer added. The only meaningful way to change discrimination is laws. When this was spoken about in previous dev diaries, it looked much more promising.

What I want is a way to selectively accept high population cultures over time. If I conquer the Indonesian islands as, say, Peru-Bolivia or something, and end up having a huge minority of some Indonesian culture in my country through incorporated territory, at some point over many decades and with the right laws I should be able to get them as a primary culture. Even multiculturalism doesn't let you get generals and admirals of a new race, only having them as a primary does that. Regressive laws like segregation should be the stopping block that prevents this from happening, but with the best non-multiculturalism law, you should be able to get to the point where at least your most populous minority can become a primary culture with full enfranchisement, and having more of them with greater wealth and SoL should make this happen faster, or be a requirement for moving up acceptance levels. I also want them to be able to do movements encouraging and enabling more progressive race laws.

If you aren't going to do something like this than why even bother with this rework? The timer is pointless, and the laws are still incredibly rigid. There has to *at least* be factors other than the laws that reliably affect discrimination or it's just a waste of time.
 
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If Pops are very very discriminated or barely discriminated they will not assimilate. In the first case because more established Pops basically won't let them, in the second because they don't feel the need to.
As mentioned in other comments, we're looking at the heritage. Just fyi, in the current version of the game this is already the case.
Highly-accepted population might not "feel the need" to assimilate, but by being very accepted it means they are intermingling easily with the main culture and as such they SHOULD have some amount of automatic assimilation. It's just the inevitable consequence of, precisely, the lack of discrimination.
It's just contradictory to consider that lack of discrimination will keep populations separate. That's, like, the opposite of the very concept.
I believe we left the rule in place. It also seems sensible to me. What would be your main arguments for changing it?
Because that's both logical and how it happened in the world ?
That there is more resistance to assimilation is one thing, that it doesn't happen is just absurd. Do you still see Byzantine today in Anatolia ? Do you still see Gauls in France ?
Or even more obvious and relevant, speaking of France, where are the several regional cultures in France that were, precisely, assimilated during this very period into the mainstream French culture ?
In fact, the ability to "convert" people from conquered locations was one of the most basic POINT of "assimilation".
Assimilating in homelands wouldn't really make sense with historical behavior. Pretty much all historical cases of what in-game would be changing a majority culture in a culture's homeland were accomplished historically through migration of the country's culture's population into the area and migration of the homeland population out of the area, not through assimilating the existing people in the area. Even cases like parts of Wales becoming English in the 19th century were more through Welsh people leaving and English people moving in than the local Welsh population adopting English culture.
That's just flat-out wrong. See above.
Agreed, we would like to have more good reasons to have the restrictive laws. We're adding some modifiers with 1.8 (e.g. high acceptance pops in these laws will generate more loyalists and less radicals), but personally I'd also love to take this further in the future.
One obvious consequence should be that low-acceptance population should create more radicals in high-acceptance population. That's the actual fundamental of the very idea of discrimination to begin with, that it creates social friction.

The assimilation of France's subcultures was forced through mandatory school and forbiding the use of local language at school.
Having a decree that allows assimilation to the main culture in minority's homeland could reflect that for the time being.
Isn't this already reflected in the bonus to assimilation that are already present in many places in the game ? Being in homeland should just apply a negative modifier, that would reduce the positive ones. A policy of assimilation would simply be expressed in the game by stacking positive modifiers, through voting laws and building infrastructure and taking decisions that increase assimilation.
 
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