• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #13 - Standard of Living

DD13.png


Hello again and welcome to yet another walkthrough of some interrelated systems fundamental to Victoria 3’s economic model: Standard of Living, Wealth, Pop Needs, and Consumption.

All Pops in Victoria 3 have a Standard of Living score between 1 and 99, which represents - by a perfectly scientific and objective metric, don’t @ me - precisely how great their life is. Pops with levels 1-4 are labeled Starving, levels 5-9 are Struggling, and so on through Impoverished, Middling, Secure, Prosperous, Affluent, Wealthy, Lavish, and at levels 60+, Opulent. We don’t really expect a lot of Pops to reach levels 60+ but - knowing you folks - we’ve left plenty of headroom to accommodate your mad economic experiments.

Standard of Living affects two major aspects of the game: birth- and death rate, and Pop loyalty.

Birth rate is simply the percentage of children born to Pops each year, while death rate is the percentage of Pops who die. Both values start out high and decline with increasing Standard of Living, but birth rate declines slower than death rate, leading to a net increase in population growth with increasing Standard of Living. This system models that increasing Standard of Living tends to lead to longer life expectancy but declining natality. Each parameter can be modified independently by a variety of effects.

Scratch your priesthood’s back and they’ll scratch yours. Note that Interest Group Traits can vary between Interest Group variants, so a different religion might provide a different benefit.
fruitful.png


There are side effects to emancipation! But while reduced population growth here initially appears to be a penalty, increasing the proportion of industrial workforce at the same time tends to lead to increasing Standard of Living, which provides a net increase in population growth.
women-workplace.PNG

Pop loyalty is altered whenever their Standard of Living increases or declines from its current value. Martin will get into much more detail on this in next week’s Development Diary on Political Movements.

A Pop’s Wealth attribute forms the foundation for its Standard of Living. Pops can also gain more intangible boosts or penalties to their Standard of Living from any number of sources.

Pops accumulate Wealth over time while their weekly income exceeds their weekly expenses. Conversely, if a Pop’s expenses exceed its income, Wealth will decline. How large their expenses are depends on what and how much they consume, which is also dependent on their Wealth. What this means is that as long as a Pop’s income remains the same, and the cost of the goods and services in their state and market remains the same, that Pop’s Wealth will over time drift towards exactly the level of consumption they can afford to sustain. Of course, as Wealth changes the consumption also changes, which affects the prices of the goods in the market, which might in turn affect their wages, dividends, etcetera.

This weekly shortfall of funds will eventually lead to a reduction in Wealth and thereby consumption, but since the shortfall is only a small fraction of its income it will take several months to have an impact on the Wealth score and thereby the Standard of Living.
peasant-net-income.PNG

Wealth has a number of functions in addition to forming the basis for Standard of Living. A Pop’s raw Political Strength (excluding any such power conferred by the country’s Voting Franchise, which is treated separately) is dependent on their Wealth. Some privately operated Institutions provide benefits to Pops only in relation to their Wealth. Many Professional Qualifications also require Pops to have a certain amount of Wealth.

Each Wealth level is defined by a set of Needs and an amount of “value” that needs to be spent on goods to fulfill that Need. This “value” is defined in goods base prices, such that the Need for Standard Clothing for a Pop of size 10,000 with Wealth level 14 might be fulfilled by buying £87 worth of Clothes, assuming perfectly balanced supply and demand. If the actual price of Clothes where the Pop lives is over-demanded, their cost to fulfill this need will also be higher. As a result, cheaper goods means wealthier, happier Pops.

This Peasant Pop’s Wealth is low (6), so it consumes only the basic necessities.
simple-needs.png

Many Needs can be satisfied by a variety of different goods. For example, the Need for Heating requires Wood, Fabric, Coal, Oil, and/or Electricity. These can be purchased in any combination assuming the total base prices add up to the required value. When given this option Pops will attempt to make a rational purchase decision based on which goods are the most available, satisfying their Need with some mix of these goods or even only one, if that’s the only one available. In this way an inland, isolated state might not consume any Fish at all as long as it has sufficient Grain, Fruit, Meat, or even packaged Groceries to satisfy their Need for food.

A breakdown of how the Peasants in Ceylon spent their heating budget this week.
heating-for-peasants-in-ceylon.png

Goods can also appear in several different Needs categories. Groceries, Meat, and Fruit can fulfil the need for both Basic Food and Luxury Food, but Grain or Fish can only fulfil the need for Basic Food. As a result, maintaining only Millet Farms and Fishing Wharfs to meet your food needs will mostly satisfy your poor Pops, while focusing on Livestock Ranches and Banana Plantations will cause wealthy Pops to inflate the price of the available food supply and further impoverish the poor. Operating productive Food Industries that can turn Grain and Fish into Groceries is good for everyone in your country, and frees up any available supply of Meat and Fruit to be consumed by those with a Need for Luxury Food.

A breakdown of who requires Basic Food and how it can be fulfilled.
basic-food-substitution.png

Lower Wealth levels have only a handful of Needs, such as Simple Clothing, Heating, Basic Food, and Intoxicants. The middle levels introduce more refined Needs like Household Items, Services, Luxury Drinks, and Free Movement. Really wealthy Pops consume increasingly vast quantities of Luxury Goods to impress and outdo their peers. In some cases Needs disappear entirely in favor of more diverse Needs. The Need for Simple Clothing which can be satisfied by both Fabric and Clothes will, as a Pop is raised from abject poverty, be gradually phased out by the Need for Standard Clothing which include only professionally sewn items.

Compared to the Wealth 6 Peasants, these Wealth 17 Bureaucrats are more diverse in their requirements.
middle-needs.png

Introducing new goods into your market will help you diversify your economy and alleviate the demand on crucial industrial goods. Importing Oil - either petroleum from newly discovered deposits or whale oil from the few places in the world that produce it - will cause your Pops to buy some quantity of it for heating instead of Coal or Electricity, which lowers the price of those goods and help make your industries more profitable. Introducing Opium into your market will decrease Pop demand for Liquor and Tobacco... for good or ill.

Some goods are favored over others by default if available. Once Electricity is available to them, due to its convenience Pops will prefer to buy it over Wood or Coal, even if they’re the same price. Some goods can be replaced by other goods entirely, while others will always be required to some bare minimum. Train travel can completely replace the need for having your own Automobile to drive around in, but having an Automobile doesn’t ever completely remove the need for an occasional train ride to see your cousin who lives all the way in Paris.

In addition to these factors cultures can develop Obsessions for certain goods, and some even have Taboos they must abide by. A country can also encourage or discourage the consumption of certain goods using Authority, perhaps in an effort to avoid enriching a hated enemy or entice Pops to buy something that’s heavily taxed over something that is not. This impacts the purchase habits of Pops affected despite this being irrational from a strictly financial perspective.

What if the Bengali were obsessed with the status afforded to them by Luxury Furniture? This could happen due to events, or organically because Luxury Furniture is a really prevalent luxury good in markets where a lot of Bengali Pops live. But even if this habit is developed around their homelands, Bengali Pops that migrate abroad - to the USA or Australia or Japan - will continue preferring Luxury Furniture to other luxury goods, and will suffer financially if the same level of access is not available there.
bengali-obsessions-taboos.png

Let’s close out by considering the difference between this and the consumption model from previous games. In Victoria 2, Pops have different Life, Everyday, and Luxury Needs based on their Type (what we call Profession in Victoria 3), both in types of goods and quantities. Pops in Victoria 2 always strive to get promoted into Types which require more advanced, luxurious goods in larger quantities, but will fail to do so if they cannot afford it. Since certain advanced Types of Pops in Victoria 2 perform their duties objectively better than their less advanced counterparts (e.g. Craftsmen, Clerks) it becomes important to retain access to advanced goods in order to ensure that your workforce is internationally competitive.

In Victoria 3 this formula is turned on its head. An Engineer is not intrinsically better than a Machinist who is not intrinsically better than a Laborer, and there’s no ideal national proportions between them you need to maintain in order to maximize your competitiveness. Different Professions do fulfil different functions, but it’s the Production Methods of the Buildings they work in that determine what function they serve. By choosing what Buildings to construct and which Production Methods to activate, you create the opportunities for these Professions which in turn impose changes to the population. What types of goods you need to ensure access to in order to keep your population satisfied is not driven directly by what professional opportunities you have created, but rather by what Wealth development and Wealth distribution these changes have resulted in.

Professions that are part of the Middle Strata in this state are considerably better off than those in the Lower Strata, and not far off from the Upper Strata. It’s very likely this state hasn’t started industrializing yet, since Shopkeepers - who run the pre-industrial economy - are Middle Strata, and Upper Strata Aristocrats aren’t always particularly wealthy if their income originates from exploiting the Peasantry on Subsistence Farms. Since the Middle Strata is already wealthy enough to demand Transportation, construction of Railways in this state is likely to be both profitable and beneficial for population growth and general happiness.
sol-breakdown.PNG

As a result, Pops in Victoria 3 won’t always strive to ascend to a higher social strata, nor will an Aristocrat always have a higher income or goods consumption Needs compared to a Clerk. All of this is driven by market forces - a qualifying Clerk would gladly become an Aristocrat on available land if that comes with a higher income than remaining a Clerk, and this increased income will gradually result in an increase in their Wealth and consumption demand. Conversely, Aristocrats don’t demote to Laborers because they can't acquire enough goods to sustain their lifestyle - they would only turn to such desperate measures if they become landless (unemployed) and are trying to avoid starvation, or if by some miracle taking on a relatively well-paid Laborer job in a particularly profitable factory would actually yield a greater paycheck than their failing farm provides them with.

In practice this means that it's important in both games to secure your populations’ basic needs to prevent starvation and dissent, followed by appeasing their desire for ever more advanced or exotic goods in larger and larger quantities to increase the size of your economy and power on the world stage. But while reaching this commonly pursued end goal in Victoria 2 often meant pursuing a certain optimal population distribution no matter what else happened throughout the game, the Professions of the Pops you end up with could be vastly different between games in Victoria 3! If you build a colonial plantation economy, your Aristocrats might remain as dominant by endgame as they were at start. If you're a manufacturing powerhouse on the cutting edge of technological progress, your middle strata Pops might come to rival the Capitalist class in wealth and power. If your high taxes are reinvested in vast Institutions your power base might be dominated by Bureaucrats and Academics. If your workers own the means of production, your Laborers might even be wealthier - and consume more luxuries - than your neighbor's Aristocrats.

These possibilities for diverse Pop distributions also result in very different political tendencies in your population, which lead to demand for different kinds of Laws. While in Victoria 2 it’s primarily the rising Consciousness of a greater ratio of more advanced and literate types of Pops that drives a desire for reform in a liberal direction, Victoria 3’s more open-ended consumption model and the diversity of Professions it can create could result in your population having very different political desires by endgame depending on the path you’ve taken. This requires your political machinery to be working in tandem with your economic engine, both to create the right conditions for your Pops and to satisfy their changing desires.

Next week, we will learn more about these desires as Martin introduces us to Political Movements, which themselves are strongly connected to Standard of Living. Until then!
 
  • 242Like
  • 156Love
  • 18
  • 5
Reactions:
The problem with this approach is that goods may be present in different categories of needs, or used by both pops and industry, so their value should be dependent on usage. Wine can be more intrinsically valuable than liquor as a luxury drink, but less valuable as a source of intoxication. Fruits can be valuable as a luxury diet supplement, but much worse than grain as a basic calorie intake. Oil may be valuable as industrial input, but not better than coal in heating and so on.
...Isn't this exactly what they're doing? Look at the Basic Food example, it lists Grain as the default good and then lists every good that could be used as a substitute for it, and the conversion rate for such substitution. Apparently that conversion rate is based on the usage, so a unit of Fabric could only be worth 0.25 units of Coal for Heating, requiring vastly more blankets to cook your food than Coal would. Fruit is already listed as being worth 1.5 units of Grain, but as a potential substitute for Luxury Food, would commonly be far more than just 1.5 times as expensive as Grain.

Edit to add: So it seems like within said Luxury Food category, 1 unit of Fruit might be worth (as an example pulled right out of thin air) 3 units of Meat to showcase how good Fruits are as Luxury Food, despite the fact that both 1 unit of Meat and 1 unit of Fruit are only worth 1.5 units of Grain as Basic Food.
 
Last edited:
  • 7
Reactions:
At those levels of living standard the base mortality will be higher than the base fertility, so if no additional factors apply the net population growth will be negative.

Note that this is only the systemic way that e.g. famines are represented economically. Particularly severe famine "event chains" may also arise during the game. We'll talk more about our approach to events in a later diary!
Fertility should be lower at Starving than Struggling. Malnutrition and exertion cause periods to stop, for obvious evolutionary reasons.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
How does this system react if a good is at rock bottom prices?

Say I'm a relatively small country who has been concentrating on the production and export of luxury clothes. Suddenly, my export target cuts me off, and I now have 27 times more luxury clothes in production than I have demand for clothes of any type, period. In the short time before the economy collapses (or I find a new exporter), how do things look for my pops? If luxury clothes are cheaper than normal clothes or even cloth itself, will poor people buy them? Do high wealth pops get "priority" over goods, and so swoop up luxury clothes, leaving poorer pops to then buy the now much cheaper (due to reduced demand) normal clothes? Can luxury clothes be used as an incredibly inefficient replacement for cloth in heating?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
This is starting to look more and more like an actual simulated society, rather than a complicated math equation that you need to perfectly balance to keep your economy from crashing.
Also, glad that BEIC is included as a country this time around.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Realistically? Absolutely. Would I like this to be in the game? For sure. However, this is also the kind of mechanical addition that I'm alright with not having in release and add in a at a later point, because it's more of a nice detail than a crucial mechanic (Heating is not a very significant part of expenses). I would also want a system like this to be used in other cases where it makes sense and I wouldn't just want to make it as simple as 'Pops in hot regions enjoy a higher average standard of living due to reduced heating expenses while Pops in cold regions are poorer'.
seems strange that the new model can't handle a modfier with x% less needs, when victoria 2 had such modifier.
 
  • 11
Reactions:
Yes I can see nobles wrapped into crude fabric to keep their schwanz "heated"

Wood: fuel, heats, used to cook stuff
Coal: fuel, heats, used to cook stuff
Oil: fuel, heats
=/=
Fabric: keeps warm. Lasts years. Raw material.
=/=
Clothes: keep warm. Last years. Manufactured goods.

As you can see, only three goods have something in common, the goods used as fuel. Therefore, putting fabric in that category is counter-intuitive, just as it is illogical putting it together with clothes.
Again, the fabric in the heating category is not about fabric being used for clothing. It's about fabric being used for things like housing insulation, blankets, and other similar uses, i.e. heating.
 
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
seems strange that the new model can't handle a modfier with x% less needs, when victoria 2 had such modifier.
To me it seems more like Wiz doesn't want to do it from a design perspective, rather than an engineering one. In other words, (I think) he's saying that he'd rather not have miscellaneous modifiers like that in the model, rather than the model itself not being able to handle them.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
What about that response makes you think Wiz is saying the economic model couldn’t handle it? That’s not how I read it.
this:

this is also the kind of mechanical addition that I'm alright with not having in release

seems pretty easy to put such modifier in every state. Siberia is cold so it has +50% for heater needs, Tunisia is hot so it needs -80% heater.

considering there is so much time before the release and can't be fixed with this option, then it is because the new model can't do it.

Victoria 2 had those modifiers at nation level. they changed with the laws and you also could mod it to change the needs per strata.
 
  • 10
Reactions:
this:


seems pretty easy to put such modifier in every state. Siberia is cold so it has +50% for heater needs, Tunisia is hot so it needs -80% heater.
Sure it's easy to add from a technical perspective, but it's likely very hard to balance and design around. So maybe not something the devs want to take the time and effort to implement at release when their work could be better spent on other areas of the game.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Again, the fabric in the heating category is not about fabric being used for clothing. It's about fabric being used for things like housing insulation, blankets, and other similar uses, i.e. heating.
yup, in Tunisia people use fabric to heat themselve
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Again, the fabric in the heating category is not about fabric being used for clothing. It's about fabric being used for things like housing insulation, blankets, and other similar uses, i.e. heating.
You must have missed why it does not make any sense to group it into the heating category. Fabric could also be used to decorate homes, so what? It has literally 0 affinity with coal or firewood which, as dev said, are also used for cooking stuff and thus they are consumed in hot places, too. Do they use fabric to keep their homes warm (and not "to heat") in sri lanka too as the other dude said? What if I just need a curtain?

Only three things share a common trait, which is being FUEL. Capeesh?
 
  • 8
Reactions:
You must have missed why it does not make any sense to group it into the heating category. Fabric could also be used to decorate homes, so what? It has literally 0 affinity with coal or firewood which, as dev said, are also used for cooking stuff and thus they are consumed in hot places, too. Do they use fabric to keep their homes warm (and not "to heat") in sri lanka too as the other dude said? What if I just need a curtain?

Only three things share a common trait, which is being FUEL. Capeesh?
You must've missed reading the actual category, because the category isn't called fuel. It's called heating. Which is not just consuming fuel if you know anything about HVAC.
 
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
You cut off the reasoning, which is that it would take time to balance out the various factors involved and not have it be just a straight bonus to living in a warm area. Someone else in the thread mentioned the necessity of spices to preserve and improve food, for instance.
I'm just talking about heating. it is a normal concept in Sweden, but it has no sense in the Tropical areas.

Wiz says that heater also includes fuel, ok, then remove fabric because it has no sense as fuel.

It seem like an oversight that only today was realised once it was pointed.

after that it is only excuses.
 
  • 25
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
I'm just talking about heating. it is a normal concept in Sweden, but it has no sense in the Tropical areas.

Wiz says that heater also includes fuel, ok, then remove fabric because it has no sense as fuel.

It seem like an oversight that only today was realised once it was pointed.

after that it is only excuses.
Except, again, heating is not just about fuel. It's also about maintaining heat, keeping heat inside (or out of) an enclosed space, and maintaining airflow in a space. Which is both necessary in hot areas and is what fabric is used for.
 
  • 8
  • 1
Reactions:
I'm just talking about heating. it is a normal concept in Sweden, but it has no sense in the Tropical areas.

Wiz says that heater also includes fuel, ok, then remove fabric because it has no sense as fuel.

It seem like an oversight that only today was realised once it was pointed.

after that it is only excuses.
Fabric in the heating category is an entirely different topic from what I’m talking about here, which is about including geographic influences on needs. That clearly is not a technical limitation, as was alleged.

Yes, the abstraction involved in POPs bundling up more when coal is expensive leads to some weird results, like Bengali POPs buying blankets. But I don’t really consider that that important of an issue, and is not what I was talking about.

EDIT: And actually wilcoxchar makes a good point about that here. It can cover curtains, not just blankets:

Except, again, heating is not just about fuel. It's also about maintaining heat, keeping heat inside (or out of) an enclosed space, and maintaining airflow in a space. Which is both necessary in hot areas and is what fabric is used for.
 
  • 5
Reactions: