• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #13 - Standard of Living

DD13.png


Hello again and welcome to yet another walkthrough of some interrelated systems fundamental to Victoria 3’s economic model: Standard of Living, Wealth, Pop Needs, and Consumption.

All Pops in Victoria 3 have a Standard of Living score between 1 and 99, which represents - by a perfectly scientific and objective metric, don’t @ me - precisely how great their life is. Pops with levels 1-4 are labeled Starving, levels 5-9 are Struggling, and so on through Impoverished, Middling, Secure, Prosperous, Affluent, Wealthy, Lavish, and at levels 60+, Opulent. We don’t really expect a lot of Pops to reach levels 60+ but - knowing you folks - we’ve left plenty of headroom to accommodate your mad economic experiments.

Standard of Living affects two major aspects of the game: birth- and death rate, and Pop loyalty.

Birth rate is simply the percentage of children born to Pops each year, while death rate is the percentage of Pops who die. Both values start out high and decline with increasing Standard of Living, but birth rate declines slower than death rate, leading to a net increase in population growth with increasing Standard of Living. This system models that increasing Standard of Living tends to lead to longer life expectancy but declining natality. Each parameter can be modified independently by a variety of effects.

Scratch your priesthood’s back and they’ll scratch yours. Note that Interest Group Traits can vary between Interest Group variants, so a different religion might provide a different benefit.
fruitful.png


There are side effects to emancipation! But while reduced population growth here initially appears to be a penalty, increasing the proportion of industrial workforce at the same time tends to lead to increasing Standard of Living, which provides a net increase in population growth.
women-workplace.PNG

Pop loyalty is altered whenever their Standard of Living increases or declines from its current value. Martin will get into much more detail on this in next week’s Development Diary on Political Movements.

A Pop’s Wealth attribute forms the foundation for its Standard of Living. Pops can also gain more intangible boosts or penalties to their Standard of Living from any number of sources.

Pops accumulate Wealth over time while their weekly income exceeds their weekly expenses. Conversely, if a Pop’s expenses exceed its income, Wealth will decline. How large their expenses are depends on what and how much they consume, which is also dependent on their Wealth. What this means is that as long as a Pop’s income remains the same, and the cost of the goods and services in their state and market remains the same, that Pop’s Wealth will over time drift towards exactly the level of consumption they can afford to sustain. Of course, as Wealth changes the consumption also changes, which affects the prices of the goods in the market, which might in turn affect their wages, dividends, etcetera.

This weekly shortfall of funds will eventually lead to a reduction in Wealth and thereby consumption, but since the shortfall is only a small fraction of its income it will take several months to have an impact on the Wealth score and thereby the Standard of Living.
peasant-net-income.PNG

Wealth has a number of functions in addition to forming the basis for Standard of Living. A Pop’s raw Political Strength (excluding any such power conferred by the country’s Voting Franchise, which is treated separately) is dependent on their Wealth. Some privately operated Institutions provide benefits to Pops only in relation to their Wealth. Many Professional Qualifications also require Pops to have a certain amount of Wealth.

Each Wealth level is defined by a set of Needs and an amount of “value” that needs to be spent on goods to fulfill that Need. This “value” is defined in goods base prices, such that the Need for Standard Clothing for a Pop of size 10,000 with Wealth level 14 might be fulfilled by buying £87 worth of Clothes, assuming perfectly balanced supply and demand. If the actual price of Clothes where the Pop lives is over-demanded, their cost to fulfill this need will also be higher. As a result, cheaper goods means wealthier, happier Pops.

This Peasant Pop’s Wealth is low (6), so it consumes only the basic necessities.
simple-needs.png

Many Needs can be satisfied by a variety of different goods. For example, the Need for Heating requires Wood, Fabric, Coal, Oil, and/or Electricity. These can be purchased in any combination assuming the total base prices add up to the required value. When given this option Pops will attempt to make a rational purchase decision based on which goods are the most available, satisfying their Need with some mix of these goods or even only one, if that’s the only one available. In this way an inland, isolated state might not consume any Fish at all as long as it has sufficient Grain, Fruit, Meat, or even packaged Groceries to satisfy their Need for food.

A breakdown of how the Peasants in Ceylon spent their heating budget this week.
heating-for-peasants-in-ceylon.png

Goods can also appear in several different Needs categories. Groceries, Meat, and Fruit can fulfil the need for both Basic Food and Luxury Food, but Grain or Fish can only fulfil the need for Basic Food. As a result, maintaining only Millet Farms and Fishing Wharfs to meet your food needs will mostly satisfy your poor Pops, while focusing on Livestock Ranches and Banana Plantations will cause wealthy Pops to inflate the price of the available food supply and further impoverish the poor. Operating productive Food Industries that can turn Grain and Fish into Groceries is good for everyone in your country, and frees up any available supply of Meat and Fruit to be consumed by those with a Need for Luxury Food.

A breakdown of who requires Basic Food and how it can be fulfilled.
basic-food-substitution.png

Lower Wealth levels have only a handful of Needs, such as Simple Clothing, Heating, Basic Food, and Intoxicants. The middle levels introduce more refined Needs like Household Items, Services, Luxury Drinks, and Free Movement. Really wealthy Pops consume increasingly vast quantities of Luxury Goods to impress and outdo their peers. In some cases Needs disappear entirely in favor of more diverse Needs. The Need for Simple Clothing which can be satisfied by both Fabric and Clothes will, as a Pop is raised from abject poverty, be gradually phased out by the Need for Standard Clothing which include only professionally sewn items.

Compared to the Wealth 6 Peasants, these Wealth 17 Bureaucrats are more diverse in their requirements.
middle-needs.png

Introducing new goods into your market will help you diversify your economy and alleviate the demand on crucial industrial goods. Importing Oil - either petroleum from newly discovered deposits or whale oil from the few places in the world that produce it - will cause your Pops to buy some quantity of it for heating instead of Coal or Electricity, which lowers the price of those goods and help make your industries more profitable. Introducing Opium into your market will decrease Pop demand for Liquor and Tobacco... for good or ill.

Some goods are favored over others by default if available. Once Electricity is available to them, due to its convenience Pops will prefer to buy it over Wood or Coal, even if they’re the same price. Some goods can be replaced by other goods entirely, while others will always be required to some bare minimum. Train travel can completely replace the need for having your own Automobile to drive around in, but having an Automobile doesn’t ever completely remove the need for an occasional train ride to see your cousin who lives all the way in Paris.

In addition to these factors cultures can develop Obsessions for certain goods, and some even have Taboos they must abide by. A country can also encourage or discourage the consumption of certain goods using Authority, perhaps in an effort to avoid enriching a hated enemy or entice Pops to buy something that’s heavily taxed over something that is not. This impacts the purchase habits of Pops affected despite this being irrational from a strictly financial perspective.

What if the Bengali were obsessed with the status afforded to them by Luxury Furniture? This could happen due to events, or organically because Luxury Furniture is a really prevalent luxury good in markets where a lot of Bengali Pops live. But even if this habit is developed around their homelands, Bengali Pops that migrate abroad - to the USA or Australia or Japan - will continue preferring Luxury Furniture to other luxury goods, and will suffer financially if the same level of access is not available there.
bengali-obsessions-taboos.png

Let’s close out by considering the difference between this and the consumption model from previous games. In Victoria 2, Pops have different Life, Everyday, and Luxury Needs based on their Type (what we call Profession in Victoria 3), both in types of goods and quantities. Pops in Victoria 2 always strive to get promoted into Types which require more advanced, luxurious goods in larger quantities, but will fail to do so if they cannot afford it. Since certain advanced Types of Pops in Victoria 2 perform their duties objectively better than their less advanced counterparts (e.g. Craftsmen, Clerks) it becomes important to retain access to advanced goods in order to ensure that your workforce is internationally competitive.

In Victoria 3 this formula is turned on its head. An Engineer is not intrinsically better than a Machinist who is not intrinsically better than a Laborer, and there’s no ideal national proportions between them you need to maintain in order to maximize your competitiveness. Different Professions do fulfil different functions, but it’s the Production Methods of the Buildings they work in that determine what function they serve. By choosing what Buildings to construct and which Production Methods to activate, you create the opportunities for these Professions which in turn impose changes to the population. What types of goods you need to ensure access to in order to keep your population satisfied is not driven directly by what professional opportunities you have created, but rather by what Wealth development and Wealth distribution these changes have resulted in.

Professions that are part of the Middle Strata in this state are considerably better off than those in the Lower Strata, and not far off from the Upper Strata. It’s very likely this state hasn’t started industrializing yet, since Shopkeepers - who run the pre-industrial economy - are Middle Strata, and Upper Strata Aristocrats aren’t always particularly wealthy if their income originates from exploiting the Peasantry on Subsistence Farms. Since the Middle Strata is already wealthy enough to demand Transportation, construction of Railways in this state is likely to be both profitable and beneficial for population growth and general happiness.
sol-breakdown.PNG

As a result, Pops in Victoria 3 won’t always strive to ascend to a higher social strata, nor will an Aristocrat always have a higher income or goods consumption Needs compared to a Clerk. All of this is driven by market forces - a qualifying Clerk would gladly become an Aristocrat on available land if that comes with a higher income than remaining a Clerk, and this increased income will gradually result in an increase in their Wealth and consumption demand. Conversely, Aristocrats don’t demote to Laborers because they can't acquire enough goods to sustain their lifestyle - they would only turn to such desperate measures if they become landless (unemployed) and are trying to avoid starvation, or if by some miracle taking on a relatively well-paid Laborer job in a particularly profitable factory would actually yield a greater paycheck than their failing farm provides them with.

In practice this means that it's important in both games to secure your populations’ basic needs to prevent starvation and dissent, followed by appeasing their desire for ever more advanced or exotic goods in larger and larger quantities to increase the size of your economy and power on the world stage. But while reaching this commonly pursued end goal in Victoria 2 often meant pursuing a certain optimal population distribution no matter what else happened throughout the game, the Professions of the Pops you end up with could be vastly different between games in Victoria 3! If you build a colonial plantation economy, your Aristocrats might remain as dominant by endgame as they were at start. If you're a manufacturing powerhouse on the cutting edge of technological progress, your middle strata Pops might come to rival the Capitalist class in wealth and power. If your high taxes are reinvested in vast Institutions your power base might be dominated by Bureaucrats and Academics. If your workers own the means of production, your Laborers might even be wealthier - and consume more luxuries - than your neighbor's Aristocrats.

These possibilities for diverse Pop distributions also result in very different political tendencies in your population, which lead to demand for different kinds of Laws. While in Victoria 2 it’s primarily the rising Consciousness of a greater ratio of more advanced and literate types of Pops that drives a desire for reform in a liberal direction, Victoria 3’s more open-ended consumption model and the diversity of Professions it can create could result in your population having very different political desires by endgame depending on the path you’ve taken. This requires your political machinery to be working in tandem with your economic engine, both to create the right conditions for your Pops and to satisfy their changing desires.

Next week, we will learn more about these desires as Martin introduces us to Political Movements, which themselves are strongly connected to Standard of Living. Until then!
 
  • 242Like
  • 156Love
  • 18
  • 5
Reactions:
But processing food CAN lead to it being more nutritious. White bread is easier to digest than whole wheat bread, for instance. To us today, who have too many calories, this isn’t necessarily good. But in the 19th century, as Europe industrialized, the drop in price of processed foods helped increase the calorie intake of poor people.
This is just plain untrue, especially with white bread as the supposed example. White bread is certainly not more nutritious than whole wheat bread, and in fact is so much less nutritious that in the 1940s governments had to begin mandating that nutrients be re-added back in to processed breads and grains (i.e. enriched flour) so that the foods still had at least a small amount of the original nutrients in them. The advantage industrial processing had in the food industry was not in nutrition, it was in economy of scale and, to a smaller extent with mechanized canning and such, mass preservation of foods. But nutrition really wasn't one of them, and in fact mass production of processed foods has been a detriment to the overall nutritional value of foods even today through limiting biodiversity and undercutting local nutrient-rich staple crop production in the developing world by importing cheaper, but not necessarily better, food from the more developed world.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
This all looks so complex and fun, but, i am afraid you guys put all the work and creativity on this, and the war aspect is more simplier and boring, i know victoria 3 wants to be a society sim, but i would like to see the war playing a role too, with complex and creative ideas too, i always go back to vic 2 because its war game, is not a great wargame but is fun after all
They didn't say anything about warfare yet.
 
I hope Vic has unit automation. V2s auto rebel crushing was great but something like Imperators full automation would be genius. Especially when you're being Britain or etc and putting out fires on three continents.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
This is just plain untrue, especially with white bread as the supposed example. White bread is certainly not more nutritious than whole wheat bread, and in fact is so much less nutritious that in the 1940s governments had to begin mandating that nutrients be re-added back in to processed breads and grains (i.e. enriched flour) so that the foods still had at least a small amount of the original nutrients in them. The advantage industrial processing had in the food industry was not in nutrition, it was in economy of scale and, to a smaller extent with mechanized canning and such, mass preservation of foods. But nutrition really wasn't one of them, and in fact mass production of processed foods has been a detriment to the overall nutritional value of foods even today through limiting biodiversity and undercutting local nutrient-rich staple crop production in the developing world by importing cheaper, but not necessarily better, food from the more developed world.
I noted this in my follow up post. There’s an ambiguity about the word “nutritious” here. Are we talking about preventing malnourishment or are we talking about people getting enough fiber and vitamin A? Today, the former is easy: calories are everywhere. In the scarcity that dominated most of human history, it wasn’t.

White bread is easier to digest than whole wheat bread, which means your effective calories increase. If you were a 19th century laborer, that made a big deal.

Here’s a Jacobin article about this issue of processed foods, nutrition, and their shifting social status: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natural-preservatives
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Why does producing more meat increase the price of food?
Rather, focusing your food production on Meat means that this one food type will be used to satisfy both Basic and Luxury Food needs, and since rich Pops have higher purchasing power than poor Pops this will drive the price up for the Basic Food Need as well. Whereas if your food production was focused on Grain, it would be easier for Pops of all kinds to satisfy their Basic Food needs while rich Pops would be forced to pay a premium for their Luxury Foods, which doesn't include Grain as a substitution option.
 
  • 21
  • 6Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Rather, focusing your food production on Meat means that this one food type will be used to satisfy both Basic and Luxury Food needs, and since rich Pops have higher purchasing power than poor Pops this will drive the price up for the Basic Food Need as well. Whereas if your food production was focused on Grain, it would be easier for Pops of all kinds to satisfy their Basic Food needs while rich Pops would be forced to pay a premium for their Luxury Foods, which doesn't include Grain as a substitution option.
Ah, I get it. I wasn’t thinking about the opportunity cost factor. You’ve only got so much arable land and investment money.

Was I right about why producing Groceries benefits everyone?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Subsistence industries cover this issue by paying a wage, if a tiny one, abstracting all the other activities into purchasing power on the market.

It is not that subsistence farms don't produce a (useful) good, or don't produce useful quantities of goods. It's that the sum of it works out if market availability isn't cratered. And subsistence buildings don't seem to require infrastructure, so even in an infrastructure 0 location it would work out.
I don’t think just paying a wage without associated production is enough. A country with only subsistence farming and no trade should keep its pops above starving, as this pretty much describes most of the world before industrial revolution. If there is wage and no production, then prices will go nuts as there’s nowhere to buy from. I think the best way would be either to make subsistence buildings produce some goods in every basic needs category, or even better reduce the needs of subsistence farmers so they get a low but decent SoL without addressing market at all. This way upgrading out of subsistence will not be a no-brainer, as you first have to start small and create some demand for goods when most of your populace are simply not on the market. You could do it through government spending or through export.
 
What I see in impmications is that if you are running an advanced high income economy providing cheap food will be hard because of wages. So I can directly see a use for either subsidising food industries or do large scale cheap imports.

Would be a damned shame if those imports could be blockaded in a war wouldnt it?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Will it be possible to get an economy advanced and high income enough that you cold realistically see deindustrialisation? That the living standards and wages are so high that large industrial sectors are better abandoned and left for imports if you want to raise SoL furthetmr? Or will mechanization techs genetally keep up?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Not that the discussion of "is baked bread more nutritious than grain" is terribly important but I haven't seen anyone mention the labour involved in baking bread at home. Because I think pops buying grain implies them buying flour and making the bread themselves, which is a time and labour intensive process.

(Interesting but unrelated topic but should the availability of processed foods interact with integrating dependents into the workforce? It's less possible for both members of a married couple household to work if there is also baking etc. to be done.)
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Not that the discussion of "is baked bread more nutritious than grain" is terribly important but I haven't seen anyone mention the labour involved in baking bread at home. Because I think pops buying grain implies them buying flour and making the bread themselves, which is a time and labour intensive process.

(Interesting but unrelated topic but should the availability of processed foods interact with integrating dependents into the workforce? It's less possible for both members of a married couple household to work if there is also baking etc. to be done.)

Baking bread is surprisingly easy with sourdough as I recently discovered. Or at least, not any harder than cooking a hot meal a day. The yeast literally does the kneading for you, so only things you need to do is keep the yeast culture alive and well, mix the dough and shape and bake the bread. Very tangential yes, but I bet many people don't realize sourdough can work as pre-industrial equivalent of mixing machine. I'd say having access to a bread oven is the historically more limiting factor.
 
Baking bread is surprisingly easy with sourdough as I recently discovered. Or at least, not any harder than cooking a hot meal a day. The yeast literally does the kneading for you, so only things you need to do is keep the yeast culture alive and well, mix the dough and shape and bake the bread. Very tangential yes, but I bet many people don't realize sourdough can work as pre-industrial equivalent of mixing machine. I'd say having access to a bread oven is the historically more limiting factor.

Probably depends on the geography. Eg. here in Finland and on similar latitudes a furnace at a home is a must for heating anyway, which probably contributes to our relatively rich culture of bread baking. Then you can just use the same heat to bake and cook. (Interesting note: in Western Finland, the historical norm was a separate oven for baking probably owing to a milder climate than the East)
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Probably depends on the geography. Eg. here in Finland and on similar latitudes a furnace at a home is a must for heating anyway, which probably contributes to our relatively rich culture of bread baking. Then you can just use the same heat to bake and cook. (Interesting note: in Western Finland, the historical norm was a separate oven for baking probably owing to a milder climate than the East)

I'd say it's about design of the heating too. In Finland the traditional heating method is a huge chimneyless oven-stove based on heat retention. In some places that might be an open fireplace instead (as was the case in Finland too in much earlier times).
 
Rather, focusing your food production on Meat means that this one food type will be used to satisfy both Basic and Luxury Food needs, and since rich Pops have higher purchasing power than poor Pops this will drive the price up for the Basic Food Need as well. Whereas if your food production was focused on Grain, it would be easier for Pops of all kinds to satisfy their Basic Food needs while rich Pops would be forced to pay a premium for their Luxury Foods, which doesn't include Grain as a substitution option.
On the note of purchasing power, does it go countries > wealthy pops > regular pops > poor pops? Is it based on their Wealth Tier or overall Wealth? Would a 99 Wealth POP get priority over a 70 Wealth POP?
 
On the note of purchasing power, does it go countries > wealthy pops > regular pops > poor pops? Is it based on their Wealth Tier or overall Wealth? Would a 99 Wealth POP get priority over a 70 Wealth POP?
There is no priority. Every building and pop that demands a good in a particular week will get it at the current market price. If demand is greater than supply, the price will rise next week (or however often goods are calculated), which will gradually force out buildings and pops that run low on cash reserves/wealth, but it's not like Vic 2 where you can't get your hands on goods because they're all being shipped to England.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
There is no priority. Every building and pop that demands a good in a particular week will get it at the current market price. If demand is greater than supply, the price will rise next week (or however often goods are calculated), which will gradually force out buildings and pops that run low on cash reserves/wealth, but it's not like Vic 2 where you can't get your hands on goods because they're all being shipped to England.
To expand on that, this works only to a certain (insofar unspecified) extent. If demand gets too high compared to supply then the price won't rise any higher and a goods shortage will happen where not all of the demand will be fulfilled. We don't know how that works exactly yet afaik.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
To expand on that, this works only to a certain (insofar unspecified) extent. If demand gets too high compared to supply then then the price won't rise any higher and a goods shortage will happen where not all of the demand will be fulfilled. We don't know how that works exactly yet afaik.
It's most likely the price ceiling of the goods that decides when shortage happens.

Once the price ceiling has been reached for that particular goods, any extra demand will decrease the availability of goods proportionally instead of raising the price further, simulating the shortage.
 
It's most likely the price ceiling of the goods that decides when shortage happens.

Once the price ceiling has been reached for that particular goods, any extra demand will decrease the availability of goods proportionally instead of raising the price further, simulating the shortage.
I don’t think this is the case.

1631038903261.png

Dyes here have a price of 63.6, which seems like an odd number for a price ceiling, and yet they are in shortage.
 
Looking at the needs, there seems one major need, major part of the budget, major industry, major employer and a major consumer of material that looks totally missing - housing and construction. Like, even in the absence of state consumption, there should be a consumption of lumber and tools and cement and (perhaps depending on wealth) glass and steel that's used for fulfilling pop needs if they can afford to.
Was there any response to this? Is housing abstracted by urban centers?

The construction trades were already pretty significant by the late 19th century and housing costs were a significant part of urban budgets. And there has always been some labor and resource competition between the construction trades and industry.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Unless construction of buildings costs resources and manpower the construction industry is completely abstracted away.

Actually, building construction probably costs some measure of resources like wood and iron, and the production process of that could be considered to include the manpower for the construction industry.

A slightly more interesting question is if automatically constructed buildings like urban centers cost resources to construct or if they just pop up.