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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #131 - Famines, Starvation, Harvest Conditions

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Hello and welcome to another dev diary! I’m Alex and today I bring you famine, starvation, ruin and disast– I mean, happy Thursday!

Back in dev diary #126 we mentioned how for 1.8 we’re looking at how the availability of food affects the people in your country. Up until now, if food prices were high, that would lead to Pops dropping in Wealth. As a consequence of that, Pops would become unhappy and have their birth and mortality rates change. In extreme cases they would drop below Standard of Living 5, which would mark them as Starving and make their mortality rate be higher than the birthrate, resulting in the Pop’s population decreasing over time.

This is fine, but it created some problems we wanted to tackle. For one, Pop Needs don’t have shortages, so when the price caps out at +75%, that’s it. Food is always available, it just gets expensive. Another issue is that the starving status is directly tied to what Standard of Living the Pop has, meaning that regardless of why Standard of Living drops below 5, the pop is marked as Starving. Even if food is essentially free and the actual issue is that clothes are expensive. Lastly, the effects of starvation don’t scale as much as they probably should, so even at SoL 1, Pops can live on quite a while.

With all that in mind, there’s three main features we’ve added to flesh out this aspect of the game:
  • Starvation
  • Famines
  • Harvest Conditions

Below we’ll go into each of them in detail. Everything mentioned in this dev diary will be made available for free when update 1.8 arrives later this year.

Starvation, now ✨dynamic✨

As mentioned, up until now starvation has been a fixed status tied to specific SoL levels. In 1.8, all pops will have a metric for Food Security instead, which measures to what degree that Pop has access to sufficient and nutritious food. If a Pop’s Food Security gets too low, it will first be considered to be in a state of Mild Starvation. Here, Pops will start getting some penalties to their birth rate and mortality. If Food Security drops even lower, this status will change to Severe Starvation, where the Pops’ population starts decreasing fast. To be clear, both Mild and Severe Starvation penalties get progressively worse as Food Security drops, so it’s not a hard threshold where suddenly the full effects are applied.

You can now at a glance tell how much you are forgetting to feed your population while building another workshop. The map mode shows for each state if there are a lot of Pops starving there (proportional to total state population) as well as if they are mostly suffering from mild or severe starvation
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Now you must be wondering: “Okay, but what actually is Food Security? How is it measured?” We’ll get there, don’t worry, first I need to talk about Pop Needs though.

If you’ve spent some time with the game, you know that the way Pop Consumption works is that at different Wealth levels Pops need to satisfy certain Needs. These Needs can be things like Basic Food or Simple Clothing for poorer Pops or Luxury Food and Drinks for richer Pops. Each of these needs can be satisfied through a set of different goods. In the case of Basic Food, it can be satisfied by consuming different amounts of Grain, Fish, Meat, Fruit or Groceries.

Basic Food Shortages​

As mentioned, shortages currently only affect buildings while Pops are completely unaffected. In fact, we even only mark goods as having shortages at all if they are consumed by buildings.

In 1.8 that is changing somewhat: we’re introducing shortages for goods in the Basic Food Pop Need category. The calculation for if a good is in shortage is the same as before: if the number of buy orders exceeds the number of sell orders by too much it’s considered a shortage, so no surprises there.

What is somewhat different is that we’re also adding a shortage value to the Basic Food Pop Need itself. This is calculated essentially as the average shortage value for the goods in the Pop Need weighted over how much Pops are actually consuming each good. In other words, if 90% of your Pops’ food consumption is Grain and 10% is Fish, a Grain shortage will have a much stronger impact than a Fish shortage.

Nothing has really changed here, but I needed to break up the wall of text and wanted to remind you that this tooltip is in the game
DD131_02.png

I’m sure some of you will be wondering if this means other Pop Needs will also be getting shortages - and the answer is no (for now at least). Contrary to building shortages where we can just add throughput penalties if goods are in shortage, for Pop Needs we need to consider what role the goods play to be able to determine what penalties a shortage in those Needs would entail. For now, we’re only doing this for Basic Food (with the penalty being Starvation, more details below), but having a defined way of dealing with and calculating shortages for pop consumption definitely opens the door for other Needs having shortages in the future (maybe heating or clothing, for instance?).

To help you keep track of the starvation levels in your country, we’re introducing a new panel which quickly shows you how many people in your country are starving and if you have any famines or shortages active. Additionally it also gives you information about active harvest conditions that might be affecting your states and what proportion of total basic food pop consumption each good has.
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Food Security​

With the background of how Basic Food Shortages are set up, we can finally go into the details on how Food Security works. As mentioned above, this is the metric we use to determine whether a pop is starving and how strong the effects are. Food Security is a value between 0 and 100%, where at 0% the pop is in a state of severe starvation and at 100% the pop has full and easy access to all the food it requires.

What determines a Pop’s food security is mainly a combination of two factors:
  • How much the Basic Food Pop Need is in shortage in the state in question
  • How much money the pop is spending on Basic Food compared to their whole buy package at base price

We’ve already covered the shortage part, so let me explain the second factor some more: At different wealth levels, pops need to buy different amounts of goods from a number of Needs. What we’re doing here is taking the total price for all those needs while considering only unmodified base prices and then comparing it to how much the Pop is actually spending on Basic Food.

Here’s an example: a pop at Wealth 9 needs to consume goods to cover for their Simple Clothing, Crude Items, Basic Food, Heating and Intoxicants needs. The total value of what they need at base price is 314. After considering market availability and all of that, food is actually very expensive though, meaning the pop is spending 220 on Basic Food. We then simply compare their real food expenses with their total base price expenses: 220 / 314 = 70%. That is a lot of money going towards food!

You might be rich enough to consume a country’s worth of Fine Art output, but you’ll be quickly reminded you can’t eat statues when food runs out
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Food Security then is a value that starts at 100% and is reduced by the two values above. If in addition to the 70% Basic Food Expense Share, food is also in a 20% shortage, the food security for the pop in question will be 100% - 70% - 20% = 10%, putting them firmly into severe starvation.

The reasons we went for this set of calculations in particular are primarily the following:
  • It means that as pops increase in Wealth, they’ll be less affected by increasing prices (due to food becoming a smaller part of the pop’s total buy package)
  • It means that the effects of starvation can become increasingly worse even after the price caps out and shortages become more severe
  • It means that there being literally no food in a state will affect rich pops as well even if they have a bunch of money, because you can’t eat money. (rich pops don’t consume basic food, but the shortage factor still affects them)

All of this leads to starvation being something that primarily affects poorer pops, but in the right (or wrong, I guess) circumstances it could also affect rich pops, or it could even affect no one. Have enough food and prices will be so low that food won’t be the primary concern even for the poorest in society. This is of course easier said than done, as getting your grain prices down to -75% price should be very hard for any reasonably large country. Still, it’s not mechanically impossible.

As part of decoupling starvation from Standard of Living we also had to update the Standard of Living icons and names for some of the levels
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Famines, a political classification​

If Starvation is what happens to your pops when they don’t have enough food, Famines are simply a political classification that comes up when enough pops are suffering from starvation. Specifically, we look at two metrics:
  • How many people in total are starving in the state in question?
  • How many people are specifically suffering from severe starvation in the state in question?
The goal here is that a famine should feel serious and encompassing. It should both affect a significant portion of the population in the state, but also be severe enough. In fact, this kind of classification is loosely modeled after real world classifications today (albeit with different values as the 19th Century had a different standard for such things).
As a primarily political classification, famines don’t have any direct effects on your pops. A bunch of Stockholm bureaucrats finally noticing that people in the Dominion of Norway are starving and calling it a famine doesn’t on its own make any difference for the poor Norwegians. Instead, a famine being declared is more of a political event. It can act as a starting point for narrative content surrounding famines and how to deal with them for instance.

Famines also act as a warning signal for the player. They tell you how long they’ve lasted, how many people are affected as well as estimations for how many deaths and unrealized births the famine has led to so you can feel extra bad for neglecting them.

When a famine is declared you can see it front and center in the new Food Security panel
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Harvest Conditions​

On top of the revised mechanics for starvation and famines, we also wanted to add some more volatility and unpredictability to the game with Harvest Conditions. These conditions are occurrences (often tied to weather, but not necessarily) that can happen to your states and primarily affect your agricultural sector. Here’s a breakdown of different aspects of harvest conditions:

An example of what a harvest condition can look like. The Effects described are further multiplied by the intensity in each specific affected state
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Effects​

While a lot of the effects will be tied to increasing or decreasing agricultural throughput, the effects are not strictly limited to agriculture. Floods and Wildfires might have drastic effects on your infrastructure for instance. Additionally, conditions are not necessarily negative: a pollinator surge could increase your fruit production or optimal sun conditions could lead to a particularly good harvest.

For Floods and Droughts we added some effects to the 3D map itself, so you can be more immersed while thinking about how you failed your country and let your people starve
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Regional limitations​

Harvest conditions happen on a state region level, but are often limited to certain parts of the world (Locust Swarms won’t happen in Northern Europe and Frosts won’t happen in Egypt for instance).

Duration, Range and Intensity​

Harvest conditions have variable durations, range and intensity. One drought might be milder and limited to just a couple of states, while another affects a large area for a long time. Intensity acts as a multiplier to the base effects conditions have.

If you’re curious about what harvest conditions are active around the globe you can look it up on your Victorian era weather app of choice
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Incompatibilities and Synergies​

It wouldn’t make much sense if a drought suddenly happened in a region affected by torrential rains, so most harvest conditions have a set of other conditions they’re not compatible with. A drought will never happen in a state affected by a flood, nor will a flood happen in a state with a drought. A heatwave could lead to an increased chance of a drought happening and subsequently even a wildfire. In such a case the drought would replace the heatwave and later get replaced by the wildfire.

We’ve also made changes to some existing content so it meshes with the new Harvest Conditions and Starvation. Numbers are still WIP, but should give you an idea of where we’re taking it
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That’s it for me! Hope you enjoyed learning more about how we’re dealing with famines and other aspects of human suffering. Join us two weeks from now for the anniversary week marking two years since we launched Victoria 3! (Two years already!? Who turned on Speed 5?)
 
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This comment is reserved for developer responses!

Few questions on behalf of the modding community:

-Can we spawn harvest conditions at will through script?
-Can we remove harvest conditions at will through script?
-Can we make harvest conditions specific to a given time of the year?
Yes to all! For the third question: each harvest condition has a trigger in which you can put in any conditions you like.


Will weather impact warfare in any way?
Harvest conditions are primarily focused on your rural sector. We've considered mixing in military effects, but at least for now they won't affect warfare. In part this is because that would open a whole new front (heh) of balancing issues and we'd need to look more carefully into what interactions and measures the player could take there.


Will there be blight and can it spread like a pandemic system?

And of course, will potatoes be separated from the general grain good?
No epidemic system, no. Potatoes are still modeled as the general grain good and the Potatoes PM, but we are looking into potentially changing that later on. Just need to figure out how we want it to play with the other systems.


Great DD, I love the work on the map, I might be alone but I love closing in and looking at map details and its animations.

About the quoted paragraph, are you using local prices or market prices?. I guess you want to use local shortages calculated by local prices but It is not clear in the DD.


PS:

View attachment 1200150

Can we have those animated 3D too?! Hurricanes, Typhoons, wildfires...

Click to expand...
It's not looking at the price per se. It's a slightly convoluted calculation that takes into consideration market buy/sell orders as well as local consumption/production and then reaches a final value based on Market Access/MAPI.

I'd love to have more 3D effects for different conditions! For now we'll only have them for floods and droughts, but it's definitely a possibility that we'll add more in the future.


Cool. Will there be a climate and weather system that affects pop consumption (not just food) in the future? It always feel weird to me that pops from the equator consume the same amount of heating that Europeans pops do in the north regardless of location and latitude.
Harvest Conditions are not meant to be a full on climate/weather system, but rather just focus on your rural sector. That being said it would be to do more of an actual weather simulation down the line and consider things like what you mentioned. No timeline on that though.


Good afternoon,a great DD and all these new system regarding Pop Needs and food are very good.However,i have a few questions:
1)While i understand that for vanilla game,only the basic food need will use Food Security,can a similar system like this be implemented trough script by modders as well for other needs,or even remove the Food security system and replace it by other for total conversions mod where this would not be relevant for example,or this stuff is hardcoded in the engine,and therefore,not moddable?
2)How moddable harvest conditions will be?Can we define which states regions are affected,how weather impact them and so on?
Thanks for any replies about this.
1) For the current system we use a fair bit of custom logic to make it work, so it's not possible to add additional versions of this just through script unfortunately. You can expand the list of goods in basic food of course or even replace all of them, but the system is specifically made to tie basic food, food security, starvation and famines together, so all of those connections are hardcoded. This is largely because we need to make those calculations in code for both practical and performance reasons.
2) Entirely. You can define custom triggers, modifiers, chances, impact range, duration range, range range for all of them and you can add any you might want to.


Some questions on the effects of severe starvation on those rich pops shown:

  1. I assume this is achieved through cutting off the state's market access, otherwise it is probably very difficult to have rich pops starve like that.
  2. The effects increase mortality and decrease birth rate but shouldn't it also spike radicalism?
1) Yeah, the screenshot is entirely "artificial" in the sense that I just cut all market access from the state and then removed all buildings that produced food. It's unlikely this would happen in natural play.
2) They will do that as well! It's just not present in the screenshots though


Do pops prioritize fulfilling their food needs first or would there be cases where they spend all of their cash on clothing and fell into starvation?
Would rich pops be able to resort to eating grains during food shortage or would they starve to death?
Will there be anything pertaining to food rationing?
There's no priority order as such for what goods pops consume, but more generally the reason one of the factors in the Food Security calculation is Real Food Cost compared to Expected Total Expenses at BASE COST, is specifically to avoid situation where the fluctuation of price in chairs would trigger starvation. As is we compare how much Pops are spending on food with a fixed value dependent on their Wealth level. So the price of other pop needs does not influence it.

Rich pops don't eat grain directly, they eat luxury foods. If those go up in price, they'll just pay more for them. It's only if food in general gets a severe shortage that they'll start having issues with food security, at which point there won't really be much grain for them to eat anyway.

Nothing planned for that right now, no. Do you have any suggestions for how that would work?



Thanks Alex! Will there be any changes to food substitution being calculated at a national markets sell order level instead of a local states market?

For example we can currently end up with situations where a state with a lot of fish produces far more sell orders than grain but the pops in that state have their food substitution between fish and grain calculated on the national markets sell orders for each thus creating situations where pops are trying to consume expensive grain in a state with abundant cheap fish?
No changes to food substitution are planned for now at least. But it is something we have our eyes on.


I love human suffering!

How moddable are these things? Can we create custom "harvest conditions" like a nuclear fallout?
Entirely! You could absolutely do that.


This looks great for making a much more dynamic world, kudos! I can't wait to play 1.8!


This raises the question again, can you look at fixing goods substitution to be based on price and not goods availability? I know that the calculation to do so is complex, but as you continue to add (excellent) new features like this, it seems that it will add more and more odd situations. Fixing it now will be a bit of work to get it functioning and balanced but should reduce the number of adjustments you will have to make in the future.
The issue with making it look at price is that it introduces circular dependencies where price depends on consumption depends on price, etc. There are ways of solving this and we're investigating some of them, but it's a somewhat complex issue to make work well. We could for instance work with different timesteps for each of them and have them work on delayed data, but what tends to happen is you get these very unstable prices tends which continuously oscillate. So, generally, no timeline or promises here


Will weather conditions like snow in winter also be represented on the map?
Harvest conditions are meant to represent things that affect your rural sector, primarily, rather than being a full on weather/climate/seasons system. As such we don't model winter conditions right now. It's definitely something I'd like us to do at some point though!


Can we expect different agricultural buildings to react differently to different harvest events? For example a livestock ranch being more resistant to flooding than a grain farm? Can production methods also react differently to specific harves events?
Different conditions do affect different buildings in different amounts, yes! And we have production methods that affect the impact of certain conditions


While drought happening in flooded state doesn't make sense the opposite happened just last month when massive flooding happened to regions of Poland suffering from drought.

So it makes sense to me that flooding can directly replace drought.
While generally true, yes, in testing this ended up making floods be the natural progression for droughts instead of just being and end of its own. We felt it played better to let them be two different tracks with their own issues.


Will tornadoes and hurricanes hit? Would the dust bowl hit or would it be more an event working with the system?
We don't have conditions for those specifically, but we do have Torrential Rains and Extreme Winds which can happen at the same time in a state for instance.


I'm loving the new mechanics here and hope you do eventually include clothing & heating needs too.

However I have one really big request. In the screenshot about Portuguese Food Security, one of the bars showed the Breakdown of goods to fulfill the Basic Foods need.
Please add this for all the other needs to! I've wanted an easy way to visualize this forever! And just having them all together in a single screen somewhere would be really handy!
That's a cool idea for sure! Will bring it up with the team to see if we could fit it in somewhere. Not something for 1.8 though


Thanks for the DD!

1. Will there be harvest conditions tied to industrialisation/urbanisation in a state (ex. Smog or Great Fires)? Or maybe other non-environmental conditions such as epidemics?

2. If there are non-environmental conditions like the previously mentioned three, are there laws or technologies that could reduce the risk of these conditions occurring? (ex. Risk of smog conditions reduced with higher workplace safety laws or outbreaks reduced after researching pharmaceuticals/having a health system)
There are non-environmental conditions, yes. E.g. locust swarms and disease outbreaks (not a fully featured epidemic system, mind you). While there are none that are specifically man-made as such, things like pollution and certain PMs do increase the impact of tings like droughts, floods, wildfires and heatwaves.


I think Harvest Conditions should additionally affect food security of Peasant pops, since their primary food source comes from subsistence farming. In fact, during a lot of historical famines it were peasants specifically who were starving en masse, while the effect on the urban population was much less severe
They do! We have a new modifier on some conditions that forces peasants to go buy more goods in the market rather than just consuming what they produce themselves.

Given the many, many concerns and suggestions in the comment section, I worry that a half baked system is replacing a completely raw one.

I hope that in two weeks we see a dd with more details on game performance, mechanical implementation, moddability, and some perspective on the release schedule and future update paths.
I think I answered quite a lot of questions above. Any specific concerns you have?


On the pop-specific Food Security tooltip, can we have some indication of what their birth rate and death rate would normally be? -62% birth rate and +39% death rate doesn’t mean much to me if I don’t know what those normally are.

Or, even better, on that pop screen, could we have a “natural growth rate” stat; that’s a bad name, but, basically, I want some sort of growth rate extrapolated from the birth/death rates (including modifiers that affect them, like starvation and laws), but excluding migration, assimilation, conversion, and employment changes (instances where people are moving to another pop). Not sure how military deaths and event effects should factor in, but I don’t think the calculations would be particularly intensive…
We can't really show it in that specific tooltip in a good way because it's just the modifier, but you can see it by hovering the population of the pop in question (like the screenshot posted above). That will give you a breakdown of everything affecting the pops growth.


Sweeet god. Thats awesome.

Can a battle front destroy the harvest?
Any changes to buy pacakeges?

A suggesstion: discriminated pops should have a faster starvation progression compared to primary culture.
1) Battles don't affect this right now. It's technically possible though, so a mod could do it, just not the direction we were looking to take this in. Generally that is more modeled through Devastation right now.
2) No major changes to buy packages, no
3) I'd argue that largely happens with discriminated pops having lower wages/wealth/SOL and all that


imma be honest i think this weather system makes no sense if we cant prepare by stockpiling goods. As it stands its just a debuff that randomly happens there is no gameplay in it, if we could stockpile food it could be a trade off between using money for other things or preparing for bad times which would be interesting atleast. It doesnt even have to be a system for stockpiling goods in general it could be like a pm that reduces production but makes the effects of environmental factors lesser and u get a debuff when u switch so it takes a while to take effect could be a law or a "slider" like in the budget tab. Or a completely different idea idk just more than oh a thing happen... anyways.
The idea is that you can counteract a number of the effects on it through the use of Emergency Relief, but also with institutions like Welfare, Healthcare and the National Guard. We also have effects on this in techs and PMs

snip

Since #2 post, by community manager @PDX_Pelly is yet to be updated, I tried to compile helpful questions and answers on the topic I wanted to highlight for further consideration.
I usually update that comment the day after a dev diary so the devs have

Will y'all also be otherwise adjusting how Standard of Living effects population growth? It would be interesting to see a pop growth system where high food security and healthcare are what lead to high pop growth rates with Standard of Living being relatively unimportant but Literacy as a negative factor on birth rate specifically. This would make it align much closer to McKeown's thesis which is afaik pretty undisputed at this point. Food Security as a system in game should allow for the game to simulate how the poverty of industrialization nevertheless led to enormous booms in population thanks to the increased food security that people had.
We'll likely be making growth balance changes in general to mesh with all the new additions, but not necessarily expanding the system to the degree you're suggesting. At least not for 1.8, I'd love to make it a more robust mechanic in the future given time


Will intensely farmed states be more heavily/frequently impacted by negative conditions then ones with plenty of free land?
Certain farming PMs have been given modifiers that increase the intensity of droughts. We're generally looking at other places to integrate the system in as well, but at least farms will have some impact :)


I find it a tad weird, that every state is only affected by a single condition. The limitation of this system is probably best seen in the map, where Romania and Turkmenistan regions are on a border between heavy rain and a drought, and of course they can't coexist, so a single one has to win and exist there, both epicenters are so close, that it has to be either. There isn't really a way for the system to say, that both seem to affect this area, and they sorta cancel themselves out there, and as a result it's normal conditions.

Similarly if a devastating monsoon strucks your shore it might be strong enough to affect a lot of your country, but there was already a nice amount of bees in one state, and that just exists as a impenetrable wall, that monsoon can't get through, because there already is a condition there. It's especially visible when a particularly strong condition encounters a weak one, as the weak one will resist all effects, because only one can be present here at a time.

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Let me clarify a bit: states can 100% be affected by more than one condition. For instance you could have torrential rains and extreme winds in a state. Or floods and a heatwave. How it works is that HCs have scripted incompatibilities, so for instance pollinator surges are incompatible with pretty much everything. This both means that they won't spawn on top of a wildfire for instance, but also that the wildfire would override and remove the pollinator surge. Similarly a heatwave will be overridden by a drought which will be overridden by a wildfire. The system is specifically made so "weak" conditions are replaced by "strong" ones to avoid the behavior you're describing.

For droughts and floods specifically though I made them incompatible with each other due to issues we found during playtesting. Primarily the issue was that when we just let HCs stack freely, you could get a flood, drought and wildfire in the same state giving that state a truckload of negative modifiers and it just didn't feel fun. Then we introduced the incompatibilities and on a case by case looked at which ones made sense to be able to happen at the same time (e.g. locust swarms and heatwaves), which should block each other (e.g. droughts and floods mutually block each other) and which should replace some other ones (e.g. torrential rains are replaced by floods).

As many have pointed out, there definitely is a background for floods happening right after a drought or even happen in a part of a region suffering from a drought. The reason I still made them incompatible is it felt better gameplay-wise. Having floods override droughts just made droughts feel like less punchy in a way. Instead I felt it was better to let them each standout on their own, even if it sacrifices some IRL scenarios that could happen otherwise.


Can I make people starve less by taking away their dining chairs? N-No, hold on, I seriously mean it.

If a poor pop spends majority of their money satisfying their food need, then they are starving, but if I close all the furniture factories, only plant fancy trees, and switch all clothes production to handkerchiefs for the bourgeoisie, will they now have to pay so much for everything else, that their food need will drop to like 20%, and they'll forget they were hungry, or is it always base price?
Others have already mentioned it, but we look at the buy package at base cost specifically so price fluctuations in chairs don't directly affect starvation. There is some effect in that higher overall prices means lower wealth which can affect it, but that should relatively minor.


I really like the different harvest conditions, especially the negative modifiers like wildfires and droughts. I wonder how possible it would be to simulate global warming with such a system?

Are there any plans to tie the harvest conditions to global or local pollution, in the short or long term? Without a full weather system, it seems like a basic proxy for the impact industrialization has on the climate, in both the clearly negative (more frequent torrential rain and droughts) and sometimes positive (say, developed farms in the Rocky Mountains decreasing the chance of locust swarms in the United States and eventually driving them to extinction).
We've made it so high pollution values increase the intensity of a number of harvest conditions :) It's locally based ofc, but I can see a mod extending that to be global, it's just not something we're looking at doing ourselves due to the time period and all that.


Suggestion:

At the cost of Bureaucracy and Money, the government "subsidises" all (basic) food purchases. If it's at a per-state granularity, then there'd be an authority cost too. If it's a country-wide thing, then I imagine a button on the Budget page that can only be pushed following a law being passed to unlock it.

The effect is that Basic Food Expense Share is gone from the food security equation (since the government is footing all food costs). For extra detail, distinguish (as separate laws) between "government subsidies whatever the normal buy orders would be" vs "government first 'sets' all buy orders to be the same for all pops regardless of SoL then subsidises them". In other words, will the rich get more rations or not (and how dissatisfied will the rich be in the latter case)?

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We did discuss consumption subsidies during ideation for this feature, but it's overall a really complex thing to tackle well and would require touching on a lot of systems, so for scope reasons we couldn't go forward with it. It's something we have in mind though and might explore in the future if the opportunity comes up


Very cool Update!
Will the Weather effects/Harvest events affect the existing state modifiers?
For example replacing the agriculture bonus of some rivers with a higher chance of a yearly "good flood" event that gives agriculture bonus?
They currently don't affect / are affected by State Traits, but it's a neat idea! I'll look into if we can integrate them there some more.


Theres a lot about just food in here, will there be any plans for weather conditions to effect other RGOs and industries such as earthquakes harming mining operations or bad storms raising the mortality of fishermen and whalers?
The focus is generally on harvests, right. But we do have some conditions that affect mining/logging/resource extraction. We didn't include any that affect industries though as I wanted to keep it fairly close to the rural sector at least. For modding purposes the system supports any modifiers you throw at it though, so if people want it to affect industry, that's trivial to do.


You can prevent oscillating prices through using principles of control theory. It's difficult to explain(it's a 3 month course in university, and not one of the easy ones) but mathematically simple for a computer to execute. The main thing you need is a damper function. This is something taught to engineers, but I don't know if most programmers know how to calculate these. More generally, I can see a lot of places in victoria 3 that would benefit from damping.

Otherwise, I'm wondering if these new mechanics can simulate the great Irish famine (one of the most famous famines in the period). In the Irish famine, Ireland was exporting food while an 1/8th of it's population starved to death, so in this situation, the market prices for food in the British market would not be especially higher, but rather Irish pops would be unable to buy food. Will this be achieved by peasants being cut off from income? If so, how will it be rendered to only take place in Ireland and not the rest of the British Empire (or even Europe in general), where the potato blight also hit but didn't cause mass starvation? EG Poland also had a potato blight, and in game mechanically is similar to Ireland (mostly peasants, not stated by Russia), how will there be an outcome of Ireland starving from potato blight, while Poland is unaffected?

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Oh, I'm aware, I've actually taken control theory myself at university. And yes, different kinds of dampening functions is what we'd need to do, it's just that it adds extra complexity to it, so it's not just a matter of hooking in prices. Additionally, even if we have a solution on paper, we also need to integrate it with all systems and particularly with UX. It's definitely something I'd like to explore, but there's always opportunity cost with other things we want to do to consider.

As for the Irish famine, I wouldn't say this will model it perfectly as there's a lot of special circumstances going on there we can't model properly. Depending on how you're willing to look at it you can get somewhat similar situations though.


[omitted for brevity]

From what I can see you're suggest a different way of doing things and with a much larger scope (a fully blown climate/weather system). While those are interesting it's not what we set out to do here. I'd love to expand this to do all that, but as with all things, scope is limited and sometimes we need to take things one step at a time. We're definitely looking at all feedback that is sent our way though and looking at if it's interesting and how we can integrate it, now or in the future.

One point I'd like to mention specifically is goods substitution: we are aware of player concerns with this and looking at things we can do with it. It is a pretty complex issue though (see comment above for some context) and not something we can solve overnight.

As for the list of posts you collected, I feel like I have answered a lot of those either in the dev diary or in other comments, but I'll also mention that many of them are not really concerns with the system as a whole and more suggestions for how we could take it further or tweaks we can make to existing content to integrate them more. Generally though, us specifically responding to something is not required for the feedback to be received, we do read all the comments that come up here and think about what we want to do with their suggestions.
 
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Few questions on behalf of the modding community:

-Can we spawn harvest conditions at will through script?
-Can we remove harvest conditions at will through script?
-Can we make harvest conditions specific to a given time of the year?
 
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The calculation for if a good is in shortage is the same as before: if the number of buy orders exceeds the number of sell orders by too much it’s considered a shortage, so no surprises there.

Great DD, I love the work on the map, I might be alone but I love closing in and looking at map details and its animations.

About the quoted paragraph, are you using local prices or market prices?. I guess you want to use local shortages calculated by local prices but It is not clear in the DD.


PS:

1728570763043.png


Can we have those animated 3D too?! Hurricanes, Typhoons, wildfires...
 
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While this is wouldn't work as a shortage, exactly, I feel like the availability of a hypothetical "Education" need group being tied to literacy would deepen the pop system a lot - perhaps the introduction of the newspaper could increase literacy of it's readers and as such indirectly increase political radicalism?
 
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Cool. Will there be a climate and weather system that affects pop consumption (not just food) in the future? It always feel weird to me that pops from the equator consume the same amount of heating that Europeans pops do in the north regardless of location and latitude.
 
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Good afternoon,a great DD and all these new system regarding Pop Needs and food are very good.However,i have a few questions:
1)While i understand that for vanilla game,only the basic food need will use Food Security,can a similar system like this be implemented trough script by modders as well for other needs,or even remove the Food security system and replace it by other for total conversions mod where this would not be relevant for example,or this stuff is hardcoded in the engine,and therefore,not moddable?
2)How moddable harvest conditions will be?Can we define which states regions are affected,how weather impact them and so on?
Thanks for any replies about this.
 
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Some questions on the effects of severe starvation on those rich pops shown:

  1. I assume this is achieved through cutting off the state's market access, otherwise it is probably very difficult to have rich pops starve like that.
  2. The effects increase mortality and decrease birth rate but shouldn't it also spike radicalism?
 
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Do pops prioritize fulfilling their food needs first or would there be cases where they spend all of their cash on clothing and fell into starvation?
Would rich pops be able to resort to eating grains during food shortage or would they starve to death?
Will there be anything pertaining to food rationing?
 
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Very beautiful! I love watching my pops starve and feeling very bad about the mortality rate of my society’s children!

On the topic of harvesting and pops starving, could we change the Banana Republic government name localization to require being a type of subject? Kinda weird seeing that moniker crop up in independent great powers when those were historically foreign influenced subject-esque governments
 
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Question: will the British be able to screw over the Irish, take the food that they produce and give it to the English and in general turn the blight into the great hunger?
I think most goods sold are sold on the most locally available market so I don't think that will work for now.
 
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It's great to see all those cool new additions!

Will the weather conditions have an effect on war? E.g. Flooding making battles way harder, etc.?
If I play as Sweden and there is a famine or a bad harvest condition, will I be able to help my poor subject and will that have an influence on the subject's liberty desire?
Modding question: Will we be able to change the probability for weather conditions with script? E.g. I add a project to build a dam which will add a modifier to the state region that reduces the chance for a flood?

Also those 3D effects are absolutely gorgeous!
 
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