Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #132 - Pivot of Empire

[Splorghley]

Explain to me why German unification is more important than the collapse of EIC, the formation of the British Raj, and the Indian independence movement. Go ahead, I'd love to know why colonial regions are not part of the "core historical game cycle", and how you define "actual actors" and why that doesn't include the successful independence movement for a nation containing about 1/6 of the global population (at the time).

I can't wait to hear your insights into why the struggle for self-determination of the most important colony of the largest colonial power in the world, leading to the end of the very system of colonization that defined the era this game is set in, pales in importance to... improving the already-existing German unification system.

We're all friends here, don't hold back, please elaborate.

This kind of post really doesn't seem like it will lead to anything constructive.

It doesn't seem like you're interested in the poster's reasoning at all, it just looks like you're looking to dunk on them. If you're genuinely interested in their reasoning, you could go easier on the sarcastic italics; if you're not interested, maybe don't engage and let people discuss the actual subject of this thread.

 

[Li Three]

Can India participate in the great game between Britain and Russia after gaining independence and becoming a great power? (Leave the same issue to the possible future Qing Empire DLC)

 

[Nnorm]

I’m not against Carlist Wars being in the game. Back to you! Still waiting for that explanation on why a regional civil conflict over ideology and a couple provinces absolutely must be included before anything else

Because there is no reason why it should not have been in the game in the first place, and there is no logical explanation why it hasn't been implementet for 2 years. If you make historical game, maybe include important events, especially concerning country which starts 9 in rank, and - unlike India - is one of the most fun country to play on Vic3.
And PDX can implement this together with other things.

EDIT i saw you asked somebody why he thinks German unification is more important than indian affairs. Well, my fault for taking that bait. I should have seen that coming.

 

[47pik]

Because there is no reason why it should not have been in the game in the first place, and there is no logical explanation why it hasn't been implementet for 2 years. If you make historical game, maybe include important events, especially concerning country which starts 9 in rank, and - unlike India - is one of the most fun country to play on Vic3.
And PDX can implement this together with other things.

Still don’t have a reason why Carlist wars are more important than any other historical event huh? Weird how can’t seem to make one explicit. Surely you should have no trouble explaining why a regional civil conflict in Spain is an “important event” that absolutely must be included before any Indian history, and anything else is a failure by the developers.

EDIT i saw you asked somebody why he thinks German unification is more important than indian affairs. Well, my fault for taking that bait. I should have seen that coming.

Again with the vagueness. Come out and say it. Why is German unification more important?

 

[SimpleConcept]

I've seen there's going to be a law regarding the Caste System in India. Is this going to be exclusive to India? Or will we have the same system in other countries, hopefully with different law names since "Caste System" wouldn't be appropriate for a European country?

I wouldn't really see the point of such laws outside of India (or countries with similar systems at the time), considering that enacting a Caste System law is simply detrimental to your country.
I *could* see it as a law designed to keep pops in colonies in check though, much like industry banned.

Of course, there is also the roleplay aspect of it, but isn't adding a whole new category of laws just for the sake of roleplay a bit too much?

 

[Duarte]

Explain to me why German unification is more important than the collapse of EIC, the formation of the British Raj, and the Indian independence movement. Go ahead, I'd love to know why colonial regions are not part of the "core historical game cycle", and how you define "actual actors" and why that doesn't include the successful independence movement for a nation containing about 1/6 of the global population (at the time).

I can't wait to hear your insights into why the struggle for self-determination of the most important colony of the largest colonial power in the world, leading to the end of the very system of colonization that defined the era this game is set in, pales in importance to... improving the already-existing German unification system.

We're all friends here, don't hold back, please elaborate.

Ya know, I agree with you India is important, but your pointless causticity and bad faith have prompted me to take the bait.

the Reason why German unification can be considered to more important than India, is quite simply because it was what eventually lead to exhaustion of the british empire.

From a broad perspective, German unification led to a realignment of British political interest in Europe, to a reversal of the Anglo French rivalry. The emerge of Germany as rival not only in geopolitics but also industry, quite bluntly resulted in an increase in the upkeep of the empire as whole( while the the costs of maintaining the empire where already increasing before hand, as evidenced by the need the british had of deploying sepoys overseas, one of the causes of the sepoys rebellion) by way of prompting various arms races.

A Point that requires further mentioning, one that you seem to oh so casually to be ignoring, Is WWI, and amongst it many vast and obvious consequences and impacts, that fundamentally require Germany to exist. There is also it's impact it had on India, specifically, that of the home rule movement, wich one of it's main touch stones, was home rule as a reward for participation in WWI, a promise the brits had no intention of keeping true, but a promise they wouldn't have made had they no need to.

To re-iterate the point Germany can ultimately be said to be more important than India, for if nothing it was the root cause of many things that ultimately impacted India, rather than the other way around.

With that mental exercise out of the way. Ultimately I'm happy that India is being the focus of the DLC since it's a fun area to play as and has tons of potential for multiple playstyles and frankly while it's one of the few paces in the game that had per-dlc unique mechanics, it was bitterly underserved in terms of flavour and nuance (specially in regards to the princely states), not to mention historical accuracy in some ways as other posters have said.

But from this does not follow, that the devs can't be criticised for how German unification has been implemented e.i that it rarely unifies at all (that fixing such a thing is vastly more complicated than merely changing a value in code is however a fact that is lost on many). In regards to the carlist wars the devs have stated in the past that they want to give them unique mechanics ( tough admittedly they said this a while ago, an so it's not a given that every poster who complains about the carlist wars is awere of that fact).

 

[Duarte]

I've seen there's going to be a law regarding the Caste System in India. Is this going to be exclusive to India? Or will we have the same system in other countries, opefully with different law names since "Caste System" wouldn't be appropriate for a European country?

I wouldn't really see the point of such laws outside of India (or countries with similar systems at the time), considering that enacting a Caste System law is simply detrimental to your country.
I *could* see it as a law designed to keep pops in colonies in check though, much like industry banned.

Of course, there is also the roleplay aspect of it, but isn't adding a whole new category of laws just for the sake of roleplay a bit too much?

well, to be brutally honest it's not rolepaly, it was actually a massive issue at the time as well.

frist the law seems to apply to all indian/hindu (Muslim and Sikh states will most likely have to struggle with it has they did historically) so it's not just a law that is just unique to the EIC/RAJ, but to all the princely states as well.

But back to the original point, being anti cast, was one of the banners of the sikh empire (and well obviously sikhism in general) and had tremendous impact on how they dealt with other indian states. Another angle were the Muslim states in india, while muslims nominally do not participate in the caste sistem and are excluded from it, and arguably should opose it on religious grounds (reality was often diferent) at a state level they where often in the position of being it's enforcers, often as an implied condition of maintaning their rule, so having a law portray these issues and realites, is not role play but actually a key necessety.

 

[PatrykCXXVIII]

Will there be new expansion pass?

I hope it'll be possible to turn India into corporate hellscape with CEO as the leader instead of some monarch, or president.

 

[Christopher Fanai]

So, will the Tribes and Chiefdoms of the North East of India be getting any content with this DLC. They resisted both the British Empire and India after it's independence and that particular region still has a strong separatist sentiment to this day.

 

[WASD2023]

Is the choice of India as the location for the DLC based on recent events? There was a major exhibition in London covering Maharaja Ranjit Singh of the Sikh Empire, that ended only on Sunday, and thought that may have contributed to this choice

 

[47pik]

Ya know, I agree with you India is important, but your pointless causticity and bad faith have prompted me to take the bait.

the Reason why German unification can be considered to more important than India, is quite simply because it was what eventually lead to exhaustion of the british empire.

From a broad perspective, German unification led to a realignment of British political interest in Europe, to a reversal of the Anglo French rivalry. The emerge of Germany as rival not only in geopolitics but also industry, quite bluntly resulted in an increase in the upkeep of the empire as whole( while the the costs of maintaining the empire where already increasing before hand, as evidenced by the need the british had of deploying sepoys overseas, one of the causes of the sepoys rebellion) by way of prompting various arms races.

A Point that requires further mentioning, one that you seem to oh so casually to be ignoring, Is WWI, and amongst it many vast and obvious consequences and impacts, that fundamentally require Germany to exist. There is also it's impact it had on India, specifically, that of the home rule movement, wich one of it's main touch stones, was home rule as a reward for participation in WWI, a promise the brits had no intention of keeping true, but a promise they wouldn't have made had they no need to.

To re-iterate the point Germany can ultimately be said to be more important than India, for if nothing it was the root cause of many things that ultimately impacted India, rather than the other way around.

With that mental exercise out of the way. Ultimately I'm happy that India is being the focus of the DLC since it's a fun area to play as and has tons of potential for multiple playstyles and frankly while it's one of the few paces in the game that had per-dlc unique mechanics, it was bitterly underserved in terms of flavour and nuance (specially in regards to the princely states), not to mention historical accuracy in some ways as other posters have said.

But from this does not follow, that the devs can't be criticised for how German unification has been implemented e.i that it rarely unifies at all (that fixing such a thing is vastly more complicated than merely changing a value in code is however a fact that is lost on many). In regards to the carlist wars the devs have stated in the past that they want to give them unique mechanics ( tough admittedly they said this a while ago, an so it's not a given that every poster who complains about the carlist wars is awere of that fact).

To be clear, my point is not that German Unification (or to a much, much lesser extent, the Carlist Wars) are not important. They clearly are and the game would be better for their inclusion. And obviously they both relate to WWI and fascism and all that important stuff.

To be further clear, my issue is not with you, or anyone advocating for the inclusion of these things in a vaccum. I also want a robust Germany and WW1.

My issue is exclusively with the reactionary whining from cowards who won’t say what they really mean: they only want Europe content and they only care about Europe content.

The game is lacking in a lot of areas. There are a lot of historical events and systems that should be modeled, but have not been yet. But throwing a fit because India got some attention before Spain (even though the India stuff is clearly more historically significant anyway) is the kind of thing we should not be tolerating. They never justify it and simply make vague allusions to “importance” or “real actors of history” because they can’t actually justify their positions, because ultimately their position simply is “Europe is the main character of history”. Then they try to launder this belief under the guise the game is somehow unplayable without all their favorite Eurocentric history.

And this happens every time non-Europe content comes up, in dev diaries or in just discussion topics. I’m sick of it and I’m calling it out. Yes, there should be a lot more things added to the game. No, there’s no reason Europe should be at the front of the line. There’s a lot of missing history.

Ask yourself - if German unification content were announced would anyone be crying about how unplayable the game is without Indian content? If Carlist Flavor Pack was announced would anyone be insisting the game is unplayable because the Aceh War doesn’t have bespoke content yet? No, of course not. So why do we tolerate it the other way around.

 

[Metz]

I've seen there's going to be a law regarding the Caste System in India. Is this going to be exclusive to India? Or will we have the same system in other countries, hopefully with different law names since "Caste System" wouldn't be appropriate for a European country?

I wouldn't really see the point of such laws outside of India (or countries with similar systems at the time), considering that enacting a Caste System law is simply detrimental to your country.
I *could* see it as a law designed to keep pops in colonies in check though, much like industry banned.

Of course, there is also the roleplay aspect of it, but isn't adding a whole new category of laws just for the sake of roleplay a bit too much?

It could work if you just rename caste to discrimination.

 

[Olliganak]

I love the additions to the map you've made for India! Just off the top of my head, I have two suggestions to improve it further. First, Tipura should definitely be centralized and start as a British subject. By this point Tripura was a centralized monarchy similar to the other smaller states of India, and was considered one of the princely states of British India. Second, I think you should add the Marathi kingdom of Thanjavur to the northeast of Pudukkotai. It was at this point ruled by it's last monarch, Raja Shivaji, and wouldn't be disestablished until 1855, and due to its size its absence is certainly noticeable.

Also, I hope you'll add releasable tags for the various cultures that don't currently have one, like Tamil Nadu or Maharashtra. And since there were some Marathi states left at this point, like Nagpur and Indore, I hope there will be an opportunity to remake the Maratha Confederacy.

 

[Duarte]

To be clear, my point is not that German Unification (or to a much, much lesser extent, the Carlist Wars) are not important. They clearly are and the game would be better for their inclusion. And obviously they both relate to WWI and fascism and all that important stuff.

To be further clear, my issue is not with you, or anyone advocating for the inclusion of these things in a vaccum. I also want a robust Germany and WW1.

My issue is exclusively with the reactionary whining from cowards who won’t say what they really mean: they only want Europe content and they only care about Europe content.

The game is lacking in a lot of areas. There are a lot of historical events and systems that should be modeled, but have not been yet. But throwing a fit because India got some attention before Spain (even though the India stuff is clearly more historically significant anyway) is the kind of thing we should not be tolerating. They never justify it and simply make vague allusions to “importance” or “real actors of history” because they can’t actually justify their positions, because ultimately their position simply is “Europe is the main character of history”. Then they try to launder this belief under the guise the game is somehow unplayable without all their favorite Eurocentric history.

And this happens every time non-Europe content comes up, in dev diaries or in just discussion topics. I’m sick of it and I’m calling it out. Yes, there should be a lot more things added to the game. No, there’s no reason Europe should be at the front of the line. There’s a lot of missing history.

Ask yourself - if German unification content were announced would anyone be crying about how unplayable the game is without Indian content? If Carlist Flavor Pack was announced would anyone be insisting the game is unplayable because the Aceh War doesn’t have bespoke content yet? No, of course not. So why do we tolerate it the other way around.

Fair enough. But then I ask why lower yourself to their level? consider for a moment that in your attempts to call out these people, your passive-aggressiveness, you might have alienated some, derailed the thread, after all about a what? two posts we are at post 5? in a pointless back and forth.

If you dislike Eurocentrism sure go a head, be my guest, and if their hidebound nature further annoys you and you rather they stop, more power to you. Personally I would ban all user who end their sentences with "..." for what it's worth. But if what you want to do that than be direct and to the point rather then being just as oblique and annoying as them. Because from my perspective you came off as smarmy Indian nationalist who couldn't possibly bear with the fact that there are people who believe the game has issues and would rather have them addressed rather then more content be added. Now I know this isn't the case, but has you can imagine it was not clear from the outset. If you think a user is being pointlessly, needlessly and maliciously Eurocentric then say it, and spare us all the passive aggressiveness.

 

[JackMallcon]

I have a question (sort of a sugestion for the future maybe), now that Indian Cast law will be intruduced will it be available for others nations, for example USA, to represent some sort of Institutional Discrimination?
In line with the example, there was the Jim Crow laws in USA could it be represented as a Cast System somehow?

 

[Oglesby]

Just curious, why was the word "pivot" from Bruce chosen rather than other, better known terms like Crown Jewel of Empire?

We've considered a lot of names!
Crown Jewel was certainly among them.
Some names we can't do due to trademark/copyright stuff etc.
In the end, I'm not actually sure if there was a specific argument why Pivot of Empire over others, but a call has been made.
It does come with the nice benefit that I can say I've worked on PoE now

I wonder why the 'our' was dropped from the quote, or at least some article still left. 'Pivot of our Empire' and 'Pivot of the Empire' sound a lot better than 'Pivot of Empire' to my ears

 

[Duarte]

To be clear, my point is not that German Unification (or to a much, much lesser extent, the Carlist Wars) are not important. They clearly are and the game would be better for their inclusion. And obviously they both relate to WWI and fascism and all that important stuff.

To be further clear, my issue is not with you, or anyone advocating for the inclusion of these things in a vaccum. I also want a robust Germany and WW1.

My issue is exclusively with the reactionary whining from cowards who won’t say what they really mean: they only want Europe content and they only care about Europe content.

The game is lacking in a lot of areas. There are a lot of historical events and systems that should be modeled, but have not been yet. But throwing a fit because India got some attention before Spain (even though the India stuff is clearly more historically significant anyway) is the kind of thing we should not be tolerating. They never justify it and simply make vague allusions to “importance” or “real actors of history” because they can’t actually justify their positions, because ultimately their position simply is “Europe is the main character of history”. Then they try to launder this belief under the guise the game is somehow unplayable without all their favorite Eurocentric history.

And this happens every time non-Europe content comes up, in dev diaries or in just discussion topics. I’m sick of it and I’m calling it out. Yes, there should be a lot more things added to the game. No, there’s no reason Europe should be at the front of the line. There’s a lot of missing history.

Ask yourself - if German unification content were announced would anyone be crying about how unplayable the game is without Indian content? If Carlist Flavor Pack was announced would anyone be insisting the game is unplayable because the Aceh War doesn’t have bespoke content yet? No, of course not. So why do we tolerate it the other way around.

Fair enough. But then I ask why lower yourself to their level? consider for a moment that in your attempts to call out these people, your passive-aggressiveness, you might have alienated some, derailed the thread, after all about a what? two posts we are at post 5? in a pointless back and forth.

If you dislike Eurocentrism sure go a head, be my guest, and if their hidebound nature further annoys you and you rather they stop, more power to you. Personally I would ban all user who end their sentences with "..." for what it's worth. But if what you want to do that than be direct and to the point rather then being just as oblique and annoying as them. Because from my perspective you came off as smarmy Indian nationalist who couldn't possibly bear with the fact that there are people who believe the game has issues and would rather have them addressed rather then more content be added. Now I know this isn't the case, but has you can imagine it was not clear from the outset.

 

[Desseabar]

I wonder why the 'our' was dropped from the quote, or at least some article still left. 'Pivot of our Empire' and 'Pivot of the Empire' sound a lot better than 'Pivot of Empire' to my ears

Presumably it's search engine optimization, right? If you google "Victoria crown jewel" it's just going to show a bunch of Wikipedia articles. "Pivot of Empire" is much easier to search for.

 

[greywulfos]

Fair enough. But then I ask why lower yourself to their level? consider for a moment that in your attempts to call out these people, your passive-aggressiveness, you might have alienated some, derailed the thread, after all about a what? two posts we are at post 5? in a pointless back and forth.

If you dislike Eurocentrism sure go a head, be my guest, and if their hidebound nature further annoys you and you rather they stop, more power to you. Personally I would ban all user who end their sentences with "..." for what it's worth. But if what you want to do that than be direct and to the point rather then being just as oblique and annoying as them. Because from my perspective you came off as smarmy Indian nationalist who couldn't possibly bear with the fact that there are people who believe the game has issues and would rather have them addressed rather then more content be added. Now I know this isn't the case, but has you can imagine it was not clear from the outset.

Saying "I would rather the game's issues be addressed rather than more content be added" is actually rather telling, if anything, because there actually is already Indian content in the game, and it's vastly more ridiculous and dysfunctional than the content for Germany. For one, if you play as Germany, you might have issues with the way the German unification system currently works - but, at the very least, you can win a war for Alsace-Lorainne and then become Germany as Prussia. You have a large number of historical agitators to work with, making actual use of the agitators system that the game has implemented.

However, if you play as India, you have a single journal entry for the East India Company that will, generally, end in the British Raj, because you have to prevent the Sepoy Rebellion, which you more or less can't do on account of the fact that you gain infinite passive radicals from discrimination. As a secondary result of this, the Raj has endless rebellions, meaning its the worst affected region by the current poorly balanced radicalism mechanics - after all, irrespective of what you're trying to pass, the entirety of India will join a movement to repel the law.

Indian independence is also stupid. You will be a hindu state by default, with the Anglican Church as your Devout IG.

So, yes, India is an area with existing content that needs a total overhaul. The content it has is more barebones and more dysfunctional than Germany by miles. It, much like most of the world outside of Europe, essentially doesn't get to make use of the Agitator mechanics because it doesn't have any agitators that aren't generic.

Besides, if you want an update to German unification mechanics, it could come in a bug fix or QoL improvement patch, not an entire DLC.

 

[Duarte]

Saying "I would rather the game's issues be addressed rather than more content be added" is actually rather telling, if anything, because there actually is already Indian content in the game, and it's vastly more ridiculous and dysfunctional than the content for Germany. For one, if you play as Germany, you might have issues with the way the German unification system currently works - but, at the very least, you can win a war for Alsace-Lorainne and then become Germany as Prussia. You have a large number of historical agitators to work with, making actual use of the agitators system that the game has implemented.

However, if you play as India, you have a single journal entry for the East India Company that will, generally, end in the British Raj, because you have to prevent the Sepoy Rebellion, which you more or less can't do on account of the fact that you gain infinite passive radicals from discrimination. As a secondary result of this, the Raj has endless rebellions, meaning its the worst affected region by the current poorly balanced radicalism mechanics - after all, irrespective of what you're trying to pass, the entirety of India will join a movement to repel the law.

Indian independence is also stupid. You will be a hindu state by default, with the Anglican Church as your Devout IG.

So, yes, India is an area with existing content that needs a total overhaul. The content it has is more barebones and more dysfunctional than Germany by miles. It, much like most of the world outside of Europe, essentially doesn't get to make use of the Agitator mechanics because it doesn't have any agitators that aren't generic.

Besides, if you want an update to German unification mechanics, it could come in a bug fix or QoL improvement patch, not an entire DLC.

I just love how after going out of my way to point out how this entire thing started because of my opposition to how 47pik went about their criticism, that i get lumped into the no content for India fix Prussia instead bandwagon, post 6 in and even more pointless back and forth, tough at this point I shouldn't complain since now I might as well be an active participant.

First with a self quote :

With that mental exercise out of the way. Ultimately I'm happy that India is being the focus of the DLC since it's a fun area to play as and has tons of potential for multiple playstyles and frankly while it's one of the few paces in the game that had per-dlc unique mechanics, it was bitterly underserved in terms of flavour and nuance (specially in regards to the princely states), not to mention historical accuracy in some ways as other posters have said.

But from this does not follow, that the devs can't be criticised for how German unification has been implemented e.i that it rarely unifies at all (that fixing such a thing is vastly more complicated than merely changing a value in code is however a fact that is lost on many).

From "bitterly underserved" in terms of flavour, nuance and historical accuracy to "is actually rather telling" one wonders of what? That in your mind I never played India? That I do Germany runs 24/7? Frankly who knows.

Second and to the point:
issues with the IG's not changing when religion changes are not exclusive to india at all, use the convert country in the religious convocation power bloc, and you can have such scenarios as Catholicism being pushed by buddist monks among others.

that non Christians can barely make use of the agitator mechanic ( a mechanic I myself have vast issues with) as you said is hardly exclusive to India, tough there being only generic ones Ideally shouldn't matter since what matters is getting the agitator that supports the laws one wants( that such is not it's self the case, is one of the many and vast issues I have with the mechanic it's self)

really, that Indian content is non functional? in the hands of the player even the most harsh of scenarios can ultimately be overcomed, even if cheesing is required (an issue in of it's self admittedly). We are a talking about the AI's ability to replicate historical events with any degree of reliability, that India systematically get's the sepoy rebellion under the AI's hands is less of an issue than Germany never forming under the AI, or frankly even more egregious than both, is that the Ottomans reliably seem to fail the tanzimat reforms resulting in a number of issues.

And last but definitely not least, please tell me, based on anything I have written in this thread, that I am somehow against India getting the overhaul, we both seemingly agree it deserves and needs.