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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #133 - British Indian Caste System and Social Hierarchies

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Hello and happy Thursday! Welcome to the first narrative design dev diary! Today we will be going through the British Indian Caste System and Social Hierarchies, hosted by Em. But first a word from Shubham!




Hey Everyone, my name is Shubham. I am a narrative designer and history nerd from India, and I had the pleasure of working on the upcoming Pivot of Empire immersion pack! There are a lot of cool new systems, Journal Entries, events, and art coming your way, and honestly, I am very excited by all of them. But as dev diaries can’t be book-length, I will try to focus on some of the really big points.

The first and foremost is the Caste System, which is accompanied by the discrimination rework and also introduces social hierarchies. Em will get into this later, but I’ll focus on the history of the subject and what we tried to capture with its implementation.

You will see that the Caste System is labeled the British Indian Caste System in the game. This is because the modern understanding of Caste, within and without India, is very much a colonial creation.

Before the Indian subcontinent was consolidated under British Colonial rule, the Hindu identity was fragmented. So, while casteism was very much practiced then, it had greater variance and malleability. It was also not legally enforced to the same extent across the nation. Partly because there was no singular power that could enforce it but partly because different places had different beliefs around its relevance. However, after colonization, in an effort to streamline administration, the British conducted a census that tried to give a fixed value to caste. As this process happened, caste became codified and simplified. It became based solely on the Varna system and no longer allowed for any change in status. The Varna system recognizes only four castes and a fifth ‘outcaste.’ It also gives social roles to each tier.

The Brahmins are ‘meant’ to be teachers and priests. The Kshatriyas are warriors and leaders. The Vaishyas are merchants and traders. The Shudras are peasants. The outcastes are offered no name and are simply considered untouchable. The Portuguese later used the term Dalit to describe them, and that became their caste name.

However, as understood by the British, this Varna system ignored Jati, which is also a part of caste. Jati ranges in the hundreds, if not thousands. This resulted in a rigid system that deepened social divides and made social mobility nearly impossible. A lot of effort was made to capture this complex reality in-game.

We also considered using different labels for the tiers in the caste system. As Dalits are the most oppressed by this system, we thought to make it a two-tier system consisting of ‘Savarna and Avarna’ (those belonging to Varna Castes and those outside it). However, this erased the oppression faced by Shudras by other higher castes. Not to mention the role every tier of caste played in oppressing those immediately ‘beneath’ them.

We wanted to capture some of the nuance and complexity of the Hindu identities in that time period, as well as the oppressive, contradictory, and self-cannibalizing nature of the caste system.

The other topic that I want to discuss is the Indian independence movement. The Indian Independence movement had many leaders and many different factions. Furthermore, nearly all of them didn’t initially demand independence.

At first, as the exploitation of resources and people continued under British Raj, discontent pushed those with the privilege (money, land, education) to demand better laws and governance. Many leaders at this time were happy to let the British Empire rule so long as they were allowed to govern themselves with more dignity. It was only when these efforts repeatedly failed that the people were radicalized into starting a revolution. The game captures this through the journal entries around Home Rule and the Indian Independence.

But as you will see, many factions affect your ability to complete either Journal Entry. This is because they were not always aligned, even when various leaders agreed that independence was the only way forward. Indeed, the divisions sowed by the British and resultant from the complex history of the subcontinent made it so that factions were fighting each other just as much as they were fighting the British.

Three figures really capture this tension: Muhammad Ali Jinnah, leader of the Muslim League and the founding father of Pakistan; Mohandas Gandhi, key leader of the Indian National Congress and the founding father of India; and Periyar, founder of the self-respect movement and leader of the Dravidian movement.

Gandhi initially believed that to be truly free, India needed to return to its Hindu roots and reject all British imposition. This scared Jinnah, who thought that this line of thinking would be terrible for India’s Muslim minority. Despite being quite secular himself, Jinnah would often find himself campaigning for the needs of Muslims lest Gandhi and the rest of the INC forget about them. This often put the two parties and the two leaders at loggerheads, a matter that would eventually result in the partition.

If returning to Hindu roots upset Jinnah, it also worried people like Periyar. He had initially been part of the INC. As a low-caste man, he feared the INC leading India as most of the leadership was high-caste and often callous towards the needs of the lower-caste people. Thus, Periyar and Jinnah usually tried to negotiate, argue, and even cooperate with the British even if it weakened Gandhi and the INC’s stance. To Jinnah and Periyar, it was an opportunity to be heard.

Historically, Gandhi did become more cognizant of the needs of the lower caste and Muslim people. But as he and the INC also had to earn the support of the staunch conservative Hindus, such as the Hindu Mahasabha, it was always a compromised position. If you try to build an independent India in the game, you will hopefully feel how the game pushes and pulls at you.

Okay, lastly, I want to talk about the Sikh Empire. The Sikh Empire was in a precarious position in 1836. They have the Afghans on one side and the British to the south. Their leader, Ranjit Singh, established the first Sikh Empire but with one too many heirs. When he passes away, a series of successions occur that are violent and sometimes comical. Integrating the narrative of the Sikh Empire was a lot of fun as often it felt like writing a season of Game of Thrones. I hope you have a good time going through these events, as they are as ridiculous as they are compelling.




Hello! I’m Em, one of the game designers on Victoria 3 that specializes in narrative. This is my first dev diary and I’m excited to share a bit more about what to expect with 1.8 and Pivot of Empire! Today I'll primarily be walking you through a couple things we’ve been working on, namely Social Hierarchies, the British Indian Caste System, and a new law group associated with the Caste System.

The British Indian Caste System has been designed alongside the Cultural and Religious Acceptance Rework that Lino spoke about a few weeks back. To represent this, we're introducing mechanics for Social Hierarchies and Social Classes to the game. The British Indian Caste System is a Social Hierarchy that makes use of Social Classes in order to represent its effects.

DD133_01.png

screenshot of Social Hierarchy concept

DD133_02.png

screenshot of Social Class concept

Previously, Pops were distributed by Profession into the Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata. This was fairly rigid, and meant that the previous system couldn't enable culture or country-specific Strata. Academics could only ever be in the Middle Strata. Clerks could only ever be in the Lower Strata. Social Hierarchies are being introduced to address some of that previous one-dimensionality where the social ranking of Professions might differ in different parts of the world and allow for the implementation of the British Indian Caste System.

To understand a little better, let’s take a look at what this has looked like. Here is how the distribution of Pops by Profession across Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata has appeared previously:
DD133_03.png

screenshot of overview tab in Population panel where you can see the Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata

Clerks, Laborers, Machinists, Peasants, Servicemen, and Slaves are Lower Strata. Academics, Bureaucrats, Clergymen, Engineers, Farmers, Officers, and Shopkeepers are Middle Strata. Aristocrats and Capitalists are Upper Strata.

Pops are still distributed as they have been by Profession above. But now, in the Base Hierarchy they will be distributed into the Lower, Middle, and Upper Classes:
DD133_04.png

screenshot of Classes tab in Society panel where you can see Lower Class, Middle Class, Upper Class are Social Classes and are part of a Social Hierarchy called the Base Hierarchy

Pops part of the Base Hierarchy are assigned a Social Class based on their Professions as they had been before. Every Pop has a Social Class, and that Social Class belongs to a Strata. Social Classes can be defined based on a combination of pop type, primary culture, and/or religion. Social Class information will appear in the Society panel. Social Hierarchies are intended to affect all kinds of Pops, with moddability in mind, and can be linked to a law group.

This brings us to the British Indian Caste System. Since Shubham’s given a bit of the historical and cultural context, I'll dive in with what this looks like in the game!

DD133_05.png

screenshot of Classes tab in Society panel for a country that has the British Indian Caste System where Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras, and Dalits are Social Classes

The British Indian Caste System recategorizes a Pops’ Strata differently from the Base Hierarchy. The British Indian Caste System specifically encompasses all Pops that are Hindu and have the South Asian Heritage cultural trait. Other Pops that are not Hindu and do not have the South Asian Heritage cultural trait will default to the existing Lower, Middle, and Upper Social Classes of the Base Hierarchy.

So where is the British Indian Caste System found? How is it set? The Caste System will be set from game start on the British East India Company and the Princely States.

Otherwise, it will appear with the following criteria:
  • A country is a subject of Great Britain
  • A country’s primary culture has the South Asian Heritage cultural trait
  • More than fifty percent of the population is Hindu.

If the percentage of Pops in a country with the British Indian Caste System drops to ten percent or below, the Caste System disappears and is fully replaced with the Base Hierarchy.
DD133_06.png

screenshot of Social Hierarchy activated

Tied to the Caste System is the Caste Hegemony Law Group that will appear under Power Structure. This law group is specific to the British Indian Caste System. As such, the law group only appears and applies to countries where the British Indian Caste System is active. This will be the first time a law group is regional or culturally specific.

DD133_07.png

screenshot of Power Structure laws

There are four laws in the Caste Hegemony law group: Caste System Enforced, Caste System Codified, Caste System Not Enforced, and Affirmative Action. The new laws affect the flow of social mobility via Qualification Gain, Acceptance, and/or Education Access. Where the Caste System Enforced and Caste System Codified laws are more a reflection of 19th century British Raj, the Affirmative Action law is designed to be a reflection of early days of Reservation laws in the early 20th century.

All countries that start with the Caste System or gain it from Pop criteria will activate with Caste Not Enforced.

DD133_08.png

WIP screenshot of Caste Hegemony Law Group, list of effects subject to change

Effects in this law group primarily only apply to Pops that are part of the Caste System. For example in the WIP screenshot above, the Upper Strata for Pops in the Caste System, the Brahmins, have a minimum Acceptance value of 80. This minimum Acceptance value does not apply across the board to all Upper Strata Pops, such as Capitalists and Aristocrats that are not in the Caste System. It will only apply to Brahmins.

DD133_09.png

WIP screenshot of Acceptance Status for a Pop that are Brahmins

Other laws in the law group will have more Acceptance and Qualification Growth effects that are specifically applied to Pops in the Caste System. Here is the Caste System Codified law as an example of other types of effects you can expect–

DD133_10.png

WIP screenshot of Caste System Codified effects, subject to change. We’re actively working on improving readability and balancing the effects of these laws.

Here, there are effects on Landowners political strength and a Bureaucracy Population Cost Multiplier, as well as effects on Acceptance and Qualification Growth. Under the Caste System Codified law, Qualification Growth will be vastly restricted between castes, limiting the mobility between classes to varying degrees depending on the law in effect.

DD133_11.png

WIP screenshot of Acceptance Status for a Pop that are Shudras

If you are playing as the British East India Company and the British Raj forms via the Indian Uprising Journal Entry, Caste System Codified will be activated if Caste System Enforced or Caste System Codified isn’t already part of your laws.

The British Indian Caste System and the Caste Hegemony Law Group (as well as the Indian Uprising Journal Entry rework) will be free as part of the 1.8 update!

That is all for today, however, we said in the Pivot of Empire diary on Tuesday that we would have two dev diaries this week. We actually are having three! So tune in tomorrow for some more about maps, culture and more by Hansi!
 
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Considering the fact the caste system existed for over 1000 years before the British, and still exists now, it’s an incredibly controversial thing to say.

The whole framing of this DD is strange to be honest, especially the third paragraph. Seems like an extreme case of post-colonial revisionism.

Kinda funny how the 'British Indian Caste System' existed in French India too huh?

Weird that.
 
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Introducing country-specific laws? Really?
It's a shame to think that it will be a game like EU4, where each country will introduce its own system in large numbers, and it will be enhanced without limit.
 
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It is fantastic to see India and South Asia receive some attention for the devs, and especially an attempt to integrate something as complex as the caste system, but I am very skeptical with the actual implementation.

What makes the caste system so difficult to understand for non-South Asian people is that it is a hierarchical system that runs parallel and besides social hierarchies based on wealth and status. There are rich and poor brahmins (higher brahmins need to have their food cooked by lower brahmins, for instance), and rich and poor shudras and dalits. A high-caste businessperson may do business with a successful dalit businessowner, but still refuse to shake their hands for reasons or ritual 'pollution'... Caste identification and class identification are different, though they may overlap in the case of professions massively invested by certain jati. Yet, a major source of tension in Indian/South Asian politics, is and has been caused by the tension between these two hierarchical systems.

As said previously, calling this system the 'British Indian caste system' and making its appearance conditioned to domination by the British is a very problematic decision. I understand this was an attempt to introduce some welcome historical nuance to the system, but the finer points of historiographical arguments may not translate well in a popular video game. I hope the intention was indeed this, and not, as has been suggested, a case of misplaced postcolonial studies revanchism. It is absurd that independent Indian countries such as the Sikh empire or Nepal do not have the caste system present, or to imagine that an independent India would simply ignore the caste system. In reality, independent India constitutionally abolished caste discrimination and introduced affirmative action measures: quite the opposite of getting rid of caste altogether!

In my opinion and as hinted here, it was the formalisation and codification of caste through by the colonial census that made caste a 'British Indian caste system.'
I'd agree it shouldn't begin codified or enforced but, as I understand it, the codification of caste was the formalization of a system that was already the basis of rule in British India
But caste preexisted colonialism, it resisted reform movements, non-Hindu domination, or religious conversion and indeed it has been perhaps the single and most defining feature of South Asian societies through the ages. Caste (jati) is perhaps more cultural than religious, and it remains very much relevant in today's 95 percent Muslim Pakistan (although, not to the same extent as in India or Nepal and with different manifestations). Caste, already before the colonial census, as well as in independent or vassalised Indian States, was crucial in governing educational, status and professional opportunities or lack thereof.

As a suggestion for the game, I would propose to make 'caste system' (not 'British') be a defining feature of social hierarchies in all countries of South Asian culture. Perhaps the default setting could be 'caste not codified', but this should have very real consequences on which POPs are allowed to access education and certain professions such as Bureaucrats, Academics, Officers, Soldiers etc.
The 'British Indian caste system' becomes a thing only when British colonial authorities attempted to codify the caste system by carrying out a census and gathering demographics data. Historically, it is when these demographic data became public, that groups began to organise along caste identities, often reusing the same (gross) categorisation introduced by colonial census officers. From the moment caste is codified, it becomes a political category : I would love to see caste groups in game organise as interest groups (different from the usual ones) and advocating for changes to caste laws : voting franchise, affirmative action measures for lower castes, etc. Brahmin bureaucrats should be opposed to seeing their profession open up to shudras for instance, while shudras should demand greater educational or professional access.
 
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As a side note, sociologist Loïc Wacquant drew an interesting analogy between the Jim Crow system of racial segregation in the US and the Indian caste system. Perhaps the system of caste hierarchy in game can also be used to model race hierarchies in other countries?

(Also, there exists a caste system in West Africa too...)
 
I think that's exactly the intention though. This is a social system where wealth isn't the determining factor.
I get that this is meant to add more flavour to discrimination mechanics, but this just seems like a very rigid system that totally downplays the effect caste had on wealth and prosperity.

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Here's a study of rural Bihar, for example, where Brahmins owned 35% of the land, a plurality (and disproportionately higher than the population). And this isn't isolated to a single state, there are lots of examples. The Communist Party in Kerala very notably had to implement heavy land ownership reforms to redistribute land away from the Kerala Brahmins.

I think this is a step forward but the rigidity of the system is just a little odd to me. If you have a system that says that all Aristocrats are Kshatriyas and none are Brahmin, or that all Labourers are Shudras and none are Dalit, then idk it seems like there's an issue with the implementation.
 
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So, are law categories only unlockable by social hierarchies, or can other triggers enable and disable them? Because if so, that opens a lot of possibilities.

I do agree with a lot of other posters there should be a representation of the caste system outside of the British empire, if not quite so rigid.
 
Thank you for another dev diary.

I have to say however that while this potentially is a fantastic addition to the game, the information in the dev diary leaves open a very large number of questions.
The solution of course would be to have a two-tier system of governance and law as often reigned in colonial empires. One system in the mother country and another in the colonies. And I indeed would love this despite its complicated nature: that you essentially are governing the colonies in a different way, even if it means more micromanagement, and perhaps slowly steering it towards a modern Western system if you want.

However, what you have here seems to fall short of that. Here would be the questions:

-the caste system is exclusively to a country ruling India, or where Hindus / South Asian heritage makes up over 50% of the population.

Traditionally the caste system was used under East India Company rule, and then continued under British rule when the British Empire took direct control of the Raj.
According to your system currently, would all of the mechanics disappear if ruled by Britain directly? Given that you may fall beneath this 50% threshold?

Based on the number of times I see this question asked, this is a fundamental question.

-in colonial systems and indeed within the caste system in India, you did indeed have those that feel outside or even escaped it in a way.

So here are my questions:
What happens to British subjects, Europeans that have moved to India, colonists? Are they suddenly in this caste system and if so, where?
Then further, what happens to South Asian heritage pops that are no longer Hindu? Traditionally Sikhism and Christianity were religions that many people in the subcontinent converted to and thus for all intents and purposes, LEFT the caste system. What happens to them?

So far I see a system that potentially is great for states only governing India, but if you follow the historical route, it may simply disappear.
Personally, I would like to remain even as part of a larger Empire, but one where you could slowly steer its mechanics.

If the DLC is only geered towards unhistorical or ahistorical outcomes: an independent India before 1949, or an India where the East India Company survives the Indian revolt unscathed, then that's problem.

Optimistically however, if you are creating mechanics that can potentially interact within the context of a larger Empire, the building blocks of colonial societies elsewhere as well (colonial ruling class, mixed mestizo class, native majority class, legacy slaves/indentured servants, all of which will form a society if later granted independence) then this is fantastic. I would however appreciate some answers if you could kindly provide them.
 
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This is a great advancement in simulating the social dynamics of India in the 19th century and as others have pointed out this system is ripe for extrapolation to other societies as well. Overall I am very happy with this and am glad to see the team continue to innovate new mechanics and systems to make each part of the map feel distinct from one another.

But I have to say I'm a bit concerned about the specifics of implementation. The exact setup requiring a nation to be a subject of Great Britain to receive the BICS seems to be a pretty janky way of implementing it that will result in many societies that had caste as a social force not actually getting a caste system social hierarchy. While I understand that the BICS is specifically attempting to simulate caste under British colonialism, caste did not start with british imperialism, nor did it end with them. It's very strange to not have the caste system apply to independent hindu nations in the subcontinent in 1836. If I am another GP and I win a war against GB and force them to release new independent nations in India, it's very strange they wouldn't have a version of the caste system. It's strange to say that a version of the caste system wouldn't exist in French or Portuguese possessions on the sub continent as well. etc. etc.

I think a genericized system of the caste system to be used as a fallback option for countries that meet the other two requirements but aren't British Subjects would be a good idea. Even if not perfectly accurate for each locations specific history, would be better than nothing at all. I understand this might not have been included to manage the scope of the DLC, which is understandable but realistically after this the Indian Subcontinent won't receive another major wave of content for years so it would be a very glaring absence for a long time.
 
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Err, the BICS only actually turns off if you go below 10% Hindu population. Becoming independent after you’ve gotten it doesn’t change anything.
 
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1. Are the landowners really considered middle class under the system in game? How does that work when they have the most wealth and power in general. Codifying it even says it makes them stronger. I know on paper they're not at the top but in a practical sense they would be, wouldn't they? Like priests and the nobility struggling for power in ancient egypt? Although here it's more on the side of the british, then the landowners, then the priests (and it seems confusing to have bureaucrats and intellectuals at the top as well).

2. How does this fit with "acceptance?" Are non hindu pops affected by this, do they have castes? And if they don't, does this mean that a hindu member of the middle classes will have less acceptance than non hindu members of those classes? Because it says it's affecting cultural acceptance for an economic class within this social/religious system. It's hard to understand what the levers are in practice.
 
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What you represent landowners/aristocrats as will never be fully perfect it seems as long as it is one cohesive class. While there is a lot of promise in the caste system and new 'classes' system it does ignore that multiple castes can have jobs like aristocrat but the social impacts would be different.

I guess one way to solve this would be that maybe Manor Houses in India should employ a lot more clergymen, at the same rate and pay grade as aristocrats perhaps. So in this context the foreigner's 'aristocrat' becomes a non-Brahmin landowner specifically. This could also be a chance to add a third ownership building for temples.
 
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As a side note, sociologist Loïc Wacquant drew an interesting analogy between the Jim Crow system of racial segregation in the US and the Indian caste system. Perhaps the system of caste hierarchy in game can also be used to model race hierarchies in other countries?

(Also, there exists a caste system in West Africa too...)

There are absolutely a lot of similarities between the two, but it's not an exact one to one fit. I do think the new social hierarchy system lays the groundwork for a Jim Crow social hierarchy to implemented in the US (in fact the social hierarchy system as described here makes me a little hopeful that a US-centered expansion might be in the cards for this DLC pass). The way America governed its Native American, White American, Black American, etc, inhabitants were fundamentally different.

The one flaw I would see in this system is that segregation was not a nation-wide force but rather that the laws and social systems that enforced it varied wildly from state to state. There was no state where African Americans were treated as equals, but things were still very different between Mississippi and Michigan. That's one of the wider flaws with the game that federalism and regional legal variations are largely absent, but it's especially notable here.

I could also see a generic "new world settler state" Social hierarchy working for most new world nations, dividing its inhabitants broadly into Native, European, and African descended cultural groups. While the exact specifics obviously varied from country to country, in almost all new world states systemic racism meant that the poorest whites were treated better by society than even the wealthiest of other racial groups.
 
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landowner=/=aristocrat

Yeah, and great suggestion different social hierarchies would change part of jobs for each building.
 
It will still have the Caste System.

But if the percentage of Pops who are Hindu drops to ten percent or below, the Caste System disappears and is fully replaced with the Base Hierarchy.
Will there be other ways of abolishing the caste system as a former British subject? It strikes me as something that would be a political objective of, say, a communist India.
 
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So, are law categories only unlockable by social hierarchies, or can other triggers enable and disable them? Because if so, that opens a lot of possibilities.

I do agree with a lot of other posters there should be a representation of the caste system outside of the British empire, if not quite so rigid.


I would rename it to Class Structure and have:

- Classless Society (Not sure what it could do, maybe encourage pops to want public hospitals, public education, and protected rights)
- Fluid Classes (Pops can take professions outside of their social class if they are qualified)
- Rigid Classes (Pops will mostly change professions only within their social class)
- Hereditary Classes (Forces pops to keep their same professions within their existing social class)
 
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There are absolutely a lot of similarities between the two, but it's not an exact one to one fit. I do think the new social hierarchy system lays the groundwork for a Jim Crow social hierarchy to implemented in the US (in fact the social hierarchy system as described here makes me a little hopeful that a US-centered expansion might be in the cards for this DLC pass). The way America governed its Native American, White American, Black American, etc, inhabitants were fundamentally different.

The one flaw I would see in this system is that segregation was not a nation-wide force but rather that the laws and social systems that enforced it varied wildly from state to state. There was no state where African Americans were treated as equals, but things were still very different between Mississippi and Michigan. That's one of the wider flaws with the game that federalism and regional legal variations are largely absent, but it's especially notable here.

I could also see a generic "new world settler state" Social hierarchy working for most new world nations, dividing its inhabitants broadly into Native, European, and African descended cultural groups. While the exact specifics obviously varied from country to country, in almost all new world states systemic racism meant that the poorest whites were treated better by society than even the wealthiest of other racial groups.
We are already getting racial hierarchies with the new cultural acceptance, the mechanic here seems to be tied to employment. Was there employment specific discrimination other than the usual classism in Jim Crow?
 
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Since you've already created the distinction between mere POP "classes" (in the modern sense of the term) and other forms of social heirarchy, I think it would be a waste to leave the "base social hierarchy" option as essentially tautological (lower class means "lower class" etc).

I would urge you to make a distinction that was still important then: Landowners as part of the "aristocracy", which is still upper class of course, and Industrialists as part of the "(Haute) Bourgeoisie", also upper class, but not as institutionally established. Maybe the intelligentsia could have its own social category or be part of the "big bourgeois" category. Regardless, I think this would serve to accentuate differences which still mattered to the European societies of the 19th century.

I understand if it doesn't make the cut for this DLC, but please consider the change for a later patch.
 
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