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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

dd22-1.png

The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

dd22-2.png

The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

dd22-3.png

The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

dd22-4.png

The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

dd22-5.png


The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

dd22-6.png

Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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Piemont-Sardinia beating Austria isn't really punching above its weight. In fact, everyone in Italy believed that if anyone could military champion the cause of Italy in the region, it was the King of Piedmont-Sardinia. It was widely perceived as equal in military power to Austria before the dual monarchy.
Not that I want to turn this into a historical argument, but Piedmont Sardinia could not beat an Austria in revolt in 1848, so I would say that Austria was clearly the stronger power. Piedmont only overcame Austria with the help of the French in 1859.

If "punching above your weight" is. say, beating Germany as Luxemburg and occupying Koln, this idea is patently ridiculous. We enter HOI4-meme territory and Vic3 loses any semblance of credibility. It would take a mere day for Germany to swamp and occupy Luxemburg, and we know that because that's exactly what they did in August 1914.
I am a little bit more liberal with "punching above your weight". To use Victoria colloquialisms, Any non-great power, defeating a great power is more or less punching above your weight in my opinion. All else being equal you should not win. But as the player I would like the ability to make strategic decisions that level the playing field in some way.

At least we agree that city states defeating empires would be silly.
However, a more realistic "punching above your weight" scenario as Luxemburg would be to use its diplomatic capacity get both the governments and the people of Netherlands, Belgium, France and Britain very, very upset that big, mean bully Germany attacks the small country of Luxemburg without casus belli. They consider this a breach of the Treaty of London and all send an ultimatum to immediately restore the status quo ante bellum, or they declare war on Germany together. You're still occupied but, at least, you have two great powers and two neighboring powers championing your cause.

From what I can tell, small counties/city states will not be able to forge alliances with multiple countries. You will have to hope that in a war, you can bring enough force to bare to justify another country offering land to you in exchange for your war support. Luxemburg would likely product less influence than Sweden in the example below. So from an alliance perspective, you would likely need to be called into a war and given a pot sweetener to grow your borders.

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From what I can tell, small counties/city states will not be able to forge alliances with multiple countries. You will have to hope that in a war, you can bring enough force to bare to justify another country offering land to you in exchange for your war support. Luxemburg would likely product less influence than Sweden in the example below. So from an alliance perspective, you would likely need to be called into a war and given a pot sweetener to grow your borders.

Agreed, I'm a little skeptical about the ability of a smaller nation to "outsmart" a Great Power by diplomatic means. Everything we learnt so far about how diplomacy works gave an advantage to the Great Power especially if said Great Power is on the defensive. The dev diary on infamy clearly stated that asking for lands from a Great Power would generate more infamy and reduce more significantly your relations with other countries in the region, making this nations less likely to support your incoming diplomatic play.
And once the diplomatic play is started, a Great Power will have far more "sway" than an Insignificant or Minor Power and therefore a greater ability to influence other countries. Not to mention that the Great Power would only have to insure other countries neutrality in the coming conflict, while the weaker nation has to enticed them to actually join in, something that is likely to be harder to achieve especially when your capacity to influence them is limited because of your "lesser" rank.
The only way for an Insignificant or Minor Power to actually be able to manage a diplomatic win against a Great Power, except for special cases like when everyone hates said Great Power, will be if the AI completely mishandle the diplomatic system but then I really don't see how it's any less cheesy than exploiting the AI armies by fighting them on mountains.
 
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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.


The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.


The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.


The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

View attachment 770284

The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.


Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
I am very excited for this vision. Can’t wait for more details
 
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Why are people disagreeing with me regarding this statement? Is there something in that screen shot I'm missing? This DD made it very clear that generals are very important in war and that one of your main ways of interacting with your military is by appointing generals, and yet generals seem to only have two traits (could maybe have one or two more I suppose) and an interest group that make them any different from other generals. What else is in the screenshot that makes the general unique from any other?
(I'm ignoring the cosmetic portrait, as that has no effect on gameplay)
Because generals are only one of the several factors involved in the warfare system, and you're completely ignoring infrastructure, access to military goods, supply, technology, and every other factor mentioned in the developer diary.
 
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This is so much better adapted to late game wars, imo. Micromanagement was kinda fun in Vicky 2, but not because it felt real. Late game wars in particular are just tricking the AI in predictable ways, and don't mirror trench warfare well at all. With a well-developed AI this could be a much better system. I look forward to hearing more on how colonial/asymmetric warfare works, but this all sounds good to me.
 
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If Krakow can "win", I have spent money on a broken game.

You are wrong. In V2, the Krakov strategy was to rush Prestige to become a Great or at least a Secondary Power, ally a country with a coast, and declare war on some African backwater. Your ally would annex it in your name. Now you have resources and men. From that, continue eating as much of Africa and other Uncivilized Nations as you can. Rush Reforms to become an immigration magnet. Research your Navy and then bring those men back. If you lose Krakov proper, you can play an exile game akin to Grenada in EU4.

THAT is the META for Krakow, and while you're never going to rule the world, you can still become a Great Power and make your fortune on the Dark Continent. The usual goal when manning the META for Krakov is to ressurect Poland.

This requires not only diplomacy, but a defense of your OPM province long enough to get those colonies and men. V3's system would make this strategy almost totally impossible. Even with allies, you simply couldn't hold off domination by a Great Power, much less retaking Poland with colonial troops, becauise the total elimination of all strategy in warefare would make your broad stokes march a Doom Stack straight through attrition or into a bigger army.

A truly skilled player should be able to win as any nation if he works hard enough. A broken game would have a computer player Krakow winning. (Of course, defining "winning" can be anything from forming Poland to annexing half of Russia to getting colonies. That's half the fun!)

The system that causes a war is amazing, I love there actually being dangers to your own nation, and I have been hyped about this game for years. The hype is still there because the game is so stunningly delivered in countless other ways, but unless Paradox can somehow make this punitive no-unit disaster into a war system that still benefits from the human brain, I can definitively say that "Victoria III" is going in the wrong direction in warfare alone.
 
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Where to begin here. The central assumption I see is that V2 balance in wars is unchanged in V3 and as such they will play out in the same way, but without your expert tactical guidance. Without the player tactical guidance they are doomed to failure.

If this is true then you are likely correct about war, but of course we don't know it is true. It seems pretty clear that diplomacy, trade, economics, and politics are going to impact the game in a much bigger way. Smaller nations can make the strategic choice of trading for more modern weapons to get an advantage over enemies, assuming their enemies cannot blockade them and choke them that way.

Your point about Krakow not being able to defend itself in a war is particularly odd. Were did you get the idea that alliances would in fact be harder to coordinate? I see this as a situation where coordinating with your allies would be easier. We are fighting Russia, so Prussia and Krakow would be on the same front and sharing the same manpower to fight Russia.

Lastly punching above your weight is almost certainly going to be in the game. I don't see why you cannot take Lombardy from Austria as Piedmont Sardinia, but maybe you need the right allies and and 1848 style revolt in Austria to get a swift victory. I am loving the idea that not having a clear upper hand could mean a protracted, costly war, rather than me cheesing Austrians into a defensive battle in the mountains and stack wiping from there. Maybe I get the upper hand by blockading the Adriatic ports of Austria with a superior Navy causing a shortage of goods and further turmoil.

I think a good analogy here is to Football Manager. You are upset some League 2 team cannot beat a Premier league team in the FA cup if you put the exact right tactics in. While to some degree the fantasy element of changing history (that we all love) creates a somewhat arcadey experience in PDX games as opposed to a true hardcore simulation, I appreciate that Victoria 3 is moving towards Football Manager and away from and EA FIFA game.

That is a remarkable analogy and your points are fantastically well made.

I completely agree: one thing I am excited about is that there will be consequences for war on the home front. I just don't want war to be a backseat, much less one that's pretty much shackled to weak nations staying weak unless they have allies. "Victoria III" is not primarily about economics or politics, nor is it primarily about war. "Victoria III", like all Paradox games, should be a sandbox set in real life, where the player is given vast choices and options to make or remake their country in their image. Or not. War was a huge part of this period all over the earth, including between Great Powers, blowing out with WWI.

Simply put, the developers should not dictate to us how this video game should be played. They should offer as many choices as possible, and balance those choices. The way Paradox wants to balance warfare in V3 is perhaps the best of any Paradox game, but removing units does not accomplish that. It's the wrong direction.
 
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The screenshot is cropped. The general's traits relevant to the military (be it pips, points, attributes, etc.) may be hidden only to be revealed tomorrow. If you go back to earlier teasers and some Dev Diary images, they've done this a few times. I mean, at least I hope that's the case.

This is the part you’re referencing:

I’ve bolded two very relevant parts. First, this is not exhaustive. Second, you pick the strategy on the front as well, which, depending on the specifics, could be even more important than logistics, troops numbers, and the general in command.

Aren't traits attributes? Also, strategies don't need to intersect with general traits (though I suspect they do) to give players a way to interact with their militaries. That interaction might be shallow (if "strategy" here amounts to some sort of rock paper scissors minigame like in Imperator: Rome) or it might be very deep. But it is something beyond assigning generals and troops and maintaining supply lines. That was my point.

We'll know more tomorrow, either way.
So now that we've read today's DD, it seems I was right about two things here. First, generals absolutely are incredibly important, one of the most important factors in this system. Second, that generals do not have traditional attributes like in all other Paradox games, instead only having their traits and their IG. While I was just assuming this before as we didn't know for sure they didn't, and that's what everyone was criticizing me on, my assumption was based on the logical expectation that Paradox wouldn't put something as important as a general's attributes hidden at the bottom of the character card.

EDIT: One other thing I forgot to mention was how wrong everyone was regarding the ability for the player to "pick strategies" for the general to employ. There are essentially no real strategies, just attack or defend. I don't think that's even remotely as detailed as everyone was thinking, which was more like telling the general to attack cautiously, blitz the enemy, focus on cutting off supply, setting up an ambush, et cetera. Clearly this form of "strategies" will be entirely based on the general's traits, types of troops, supply, and front, and thus will have very little input from the player outside of choosing which general to assign to a front and promoting him (basically exactly what I alleged it would be in my first comment on this thread).
Because generals are only one of the several factors involved in the warfare system, and you're completely ignoring infrastructure, access to military goods, supply, technology, and every other factor mentioned in the developer diary.
We can see in today's DD that generals are incredibly important in this new system. However, I was never "completely ignoring" the other factors, that is a blatant lie. I never said that there weren't other factors considered in warfare, in fact in one of my posts (which you "respectfully disagreed" with, so I know you saw it) I specifically stated all the other factors that were considered. What I actually said was that generals are one of the primary factors in warfare (today's DD proves how right I was here) and that they seemed to have less values to make them unique than in other Paradox games. What was I wrong about here? Can you answer that without accusing me of saying statements that I didn't make please.
 
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So now that we've read today's DD, it seems I was right about two things here. First, generals absolutely are incredibly important, one of the most important factors in this system. Second, that generals do not have traditional attributes like in all other Paradox games, instead only having their traits and their IG. While I was just assuming this before as we didn't know for sure they didn't, and that's what everyone was criticizing me on, my assumption was based on the logical expectation that Paradox wouldn't put something as important as a general's attributes hidden at the bottom of the character card.

EDIT: One other thing I forgot to mention was how wrong everyone was regarding the ability for the player to "pick strategies" for the general to employ. There are essentially no real strategies, just attack or defend. I don't think that's even remotely as detailed as everyone was thinking, which was more like telling the general to attack cautiously, blitz the enemy, focus on cutting off supply, setting up an ambush, et cetera. Clearly this form of "strategies" will be entirely based on the general's traits, types of troops, supply, and front, and thus will have very little input from the player outside of choosing which general to assign to a front and promoting him (basically exactly what I alleged it would be in my first comment on this thread).
I have to admit that I was smoking the hopium at the time, hoping to be proven wrong about our shared worry regarding the general's traits in the teaser. What can I say, you were right in your presumption. A whole Dev Diary later, I'm now done with Denial. I'm done with Anger. I'm currently working my way up to Stage 5: Acceptance. Then I'll read the Navy DD a few times to cheer myself up, and move on to the next topic (hopefully we'll go back to economy).
 
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So you're telling me I have to take my adhd meds if I want to actually be able to play the game, let alone enjoy it? I had so much hype for the game and this DD violently eviscerated every last shred.
 
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