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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #34 - Canals & Monuments

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Good evening and welcome to this week’s Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s topic is Canals & Monuments, unique buildings with special inputs, outputs, and effects.

The Vatican City is the seat of the Catholic Church and a great asset to the Papal States in Victoria 3. As Europe developed and industrialized, the power of religious authority in national politics declined steeply but never lost its relevance. Can you change the course of history and renew the temporal power of the Pope?
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Monuments are unique buildings only available in specific states, each with its own 3D model on the map. They make use of some of the more interesting aspects of the production methods system; just as buildings can output Goods, they can also output both national and local modifiers, Capacities, and effects on the pops working there. The Vatican City for instance outputs the Influence capacity as well as greatly increasing the political strength of the Devout Interest Group. Meanwhile the White House adds a multiplier to your national Bureaucracy output as well as increasing the amount of political strength Pops gain from votes. Not all Monuments are present at the start date. Some, like the Eiffel Tower, must be constructed, and Monuments are significantly more costly and time-consuming to construct than standard buildings. Monuments are subsidized by government funding, so if you decide that a Monument is unaffordable or that you aren’t interested in its effects (for instance if you as communist Italy no longer want to Church to wield so much power) you can simply defund them. On release we intend to have eleven different Monuments in total.

The Panama Canal links the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Finally completed in 1914 after decades of planning and construction, ships no longer had to take the long and treacherous route around South America to travel between the East and West. Yes, we can see the trees and houses in the Canal - we’ll fix it!
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Like Monuments, Canals are unique buildings with a special set of inputs and outputs. But the true allure of constructing a Canal is that it allows you to create new connections between sea nodes, allowing ships to travel through the isthmuses of Panama and Suez. This significantly reduces the Convoy costs for trading and supplying armies across vast ocean distances, as well as your vulnerability to unscrupulous rivals trying to disrupt your supply lines.

We use the Journal Entry system to track the progress of your canal survey. Behind the scenes a variable is increased every month until the goal is reached, which triggers the completion event. The Journal Entry also acts as a reminder that you are spending a lot of Bureaucracy on this project, and that it will eventually be made available again once the survey is complete.
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Constructing a Canal is far from trivial. Before any work can begin, an extensive survey of the region needs to be conducted, costing a hefty chunk of Bureaucracy for the surveyor for around 3 years. Either the owner of the state or a Great Power with an Interest in the region can conduct a survey. Any number of countries can potentially conduct their own surveys and compete to build the Canal themselves.

We’ve made the conscious decision to avoid starting wars or Diplomatic Plays through scripted content wherever possible, instead offering incentives for the player to start their own Plays and encouraging the AI to pursue Journal Entry goals. In this case, the player has the option to either gain a Claim on Sinai or to improve relations with the owner country, helping you along your chosen path but not locking you into a particular course of action.
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Once you’ve completed your survey, the path diverges depending on whether you own the appropriate land. If you already own either a Treaty Port or the whole state region you can simply begin constructing the canal, but if not you’ll need to find a way to acquire it, either through monetary or coercive means. A Decision becomes available allowing you to purchase a Treaty Port in the appropriate State Region in exchange for a series of very large weekly payments, assuming you can convince the local rulers to part with the port. You might however decide that you’d rather keep your money and start a Diplomatic Play for a Treaty Port or the entire State Region (the former will cost you a lot less Infamy), which might lead either to a peaceful concession to your demands or to war.

And that’s all for today! Next week I’ll be handing you over to one of our Content Designers to talk about Expeditions and Decisions.
 
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The only argument I can think to include monuments is 'its cool flavor'. It certainly is, but these bonuses are just plain weird. We could just as easily have monuments only provide a flat prestige bonus. Surely it makes more sense for the White House to make America *look* better without actually making *be* better?

I think this will make the game less successful, both financially and creatively. Why do you think this will make the game more successful?

I think that on the contrary, this may have been a decision taken purely from a financial standpoint. Monke brain likes shiny thing. I really doubt Royal Court added 3D visuals just because the devs "really wanted to" explore the idea.

The Dictatus Papae gives the Pope authority over the global Catholic Church, and therefore greater diplomatic abilities, but the Papal States can't democratize unless the law is removed. Doesn't that sound like a more compelling simulation than the current system?

This sounds much cooler than a Vatican monument and now I'm sad we won't have it instead.

...unless the Vatican monument enabled this Law/Institution instead. @lachek ?
 
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It's functionality we do want to add, but haven't yet, so it's not something I can promise at release. There's a small bundle of potential mechanics oriented around control of narrow naval passages I'd like to explore, so I don't want to prioritize shoehorning in special mechanics only for canals that will rarely have an impact if we can create something more coherent and universally applicable instead.
Do you think that once you implement this functionality, you could add the Kiel canal project as well? Since Denmark would be able to restrict access to the Sound, the Kiel canal would become meaningful.

Also are canal and strait tolls a part of this "small bundle of potential mechanics"?
 
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I love the real National Monuments, like the Eifel Tower, Vatican City, Mecca and I would love to see alternative monuments (Israel should be able to build the Third Temple for exemple). The only one I don't agree with, is the White House. It is famous because of Hollywood but that's it... It doesn't work any better than others president's house. Or we should give a bureaucracy to almost every nation for having a government building.

Also some monuments should be culturally and/or religiously specific. Destroying Mecca should anger Muslim just as much as it would in real life. Owning it should not have in impact on Catholics.
 
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Blah. Yet another Paradox game introduces magic buildings in order to capitalize on the popularity of Civilization series.

What's most annoying is that the Monuments WILL inevitably end up having enormous game-breaking modifiers, regardless of how much the devs claim that this will not be the case.

Looking forward to Brandenburg Gate's +50% morale for Prussian troops, because reasons. Obviously, the reason why the Prussians defeated the French in 1870 was because the soldiers were all thinking about the majesty of the Brandenburg Gate (or perhaps it was the Prussian wizards casting spells from the top of the Brandenburg Gate).
 
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No Kiel Canal? No alt-history canals like a Nicaragua Canal, Kra Isthmus Canal and a few other ones I can't think of off the top of my head,, including dumb, prohibitively expensive mega-projects that'll probably bankrupt your nation, fitting with the spirit of the era, that being international one-upmanship no matter the actual cost? Monuments that are pretty much ripped from EU4, dumb percentage modifiers included in a game that's supposed to be simulationist? Bravo, I tip my hat to you all.
 
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I don't buy the graphics arguments for not having any buildable monuments. The Pretty Map Mode is only relevant for the previews and trailers. Once the player unpauses the game, every model on the map can get wonky and odd, so long as it conveys the proper information. It would be enough to give all provinces "attach points" where monuments can be placed with the direction they should be facing.

Having every single model be placed by hand so that they are precisely right seems like an awful waste of time compared to making scripts for automatically placing buildings more-or-less right. it doesn't matter that they may be a bit odd, with say a building clipping into a tree in 2 out of 700 provinces because the automatic script isn't as perfect as placing things by hand. The players can handle a little odd graphics for the sake of ton of gameplay.
 
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I don't even think the White House is a monument. It's just a official residence that any country may have. It is neither magnificent nor valuable, it's the strength of USA that makes it famous.
In terms of "magnificence", I would argue that Palace of Versailles, Kremlin, or Buckingham Palace are even more important in 19th century than the White House.
 
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I don't understand what Paradox's cult-like fascination with its 3D modelling crews is, but it has to stop, dude. They're not good enough to base gameplay mechanics around them, the models are of a quality I'd expect from an xbox exclusive from a decade ago, and the company already stubbed its toe with the overly-long-delays for Royal Court which was extremely underwhelming (and not only not a graphical improvement, but a significant graphical downgrade going by the Shadow Over Innsmouth character portraits.)

You seem really impressed with their work--for some reason--but I urge you to consider that these textureless monopoly buildings sprinkled about in a repeating pattern and overlapping each other are probably not a good reason to consider literally any gameplay changes, especially not regarding magical buildings that represent institutions instead of, oh I dunno, the actual institution systems, and especially not when that gameplay decision goes against the core pillars of the game.

If you want to represent big fancy buildings, you can do that by just having them be on the map, or maybe give a small prestige boost. But monuments do not make societies powerful, societies build monuments because they are displaying their power. It's ridiculous to put it the other way around, especially when this game is making every effort to be a society simulator. I don't know how you guys keep messing this up from game to game to game. I'm not trashing it just because it's bad, I'm trashing it because you never seem to learn.

Every now and then a poignant truth will emerge here in this forum and this right here is one of those.

I for one wouldnt mind at all that a monument were a mere added 2D art in the wallpaper of a province's context menu or UI. The usefulness of the mechanic comes first, not the other way around.

But somewhere in a secret base deep inside an unactive volcano on a remote island there is a market department dictating what a game must and must not have these daya in order to sell, and shiny things seem to be high at the list. Take CK3; it seems you can now walk around insise an interactive 3D throne room now? What next, a manicure DLC where I can groom my king's nails to perfection?
 
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Removing them would take time
It would take far less work to remove them entirely than to tweak them to any given critic's liking, or to fix them post-release if they turn out to warp gameplay unpleasantly.

(I am not advocating their removal. I expect that various slices of the player base will be unhappy with them in various ways, no matter what Paradox do.)
 
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Aside from Panama and Suez canals, will it be possible to build Kiel, Kra and Nicaragua canals?
 
The canals look good. While a straight line of water might be boring, it's also very clear from the map view that a canal is there, so I don't mind. I hope some of the alternate potential canals are also represented and can be constructed in case the player / AI interests happen to align that way. But other than that, nothing else to comment on them.

The monuments though... I get that something like the Vatican City would increase the happiness of a Catholic Devout IG if the player owns it and is playing as the Pope. Or maybe make it so more loyalists and less radicals come from the Devout IG, or something to that order. I can also understand something like the Eiffel Tower granting a notable prestige bonus for owning it since it's a, well, prestigeous, internationally notable monument and project. Actually, for most of the monuments, I would completely understand some minor increase in relevant pop happiness and a prestige bonus, since that's what they would essentially do, bolster the relevant (usually nationalist) sentiment and be something to brag about to international visitors. If needed, this might need to be potentially limited by who's owning it, eg. the Vatican City would not do much except maybe buff prestige for a non-papal state, since, well, why would it? ...Well, unless maybe the Pope still lives there, I guess.

But I don't get the White House. Even as a local bureaucracy multiplier, it seems unfitting to give it to the building itself. Like, was the White House somehow notable as a building? Was there some big architectural or cultural aspect to the White House itself that would bolster bureaucracy? Because it just seems like a weird amount of weight to put onto the building that simply happens to be the USA's federal seat of government. Do any other such monument exist? Does the Qing Forbidden City do the same thing? Does the Buckingham Palace once it's renovated?
 
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It'd be cool to have the VC modifier change depending to a papal relations value rather than state religion. Italy was very catholic but owing to the whole unification business, didn't have a good relationship with VC so having it cause trouble in those circumstances and good modifiers, if you're another religion but give good concessions and etc by event/decision?

I was kind of hoping this would be about infrastructure canals, but global trade canals are cool too. Any fictional/proposed but never built canals on the table?
 
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Now that people have mentioned DLC... at first I overread the fact that we'll only get 11 wonders to start with( I thought somebody made a joke when he mentioned 11 wonders and gave him a haha). Sadly this really feels like a decision that is at least 50% based on the need for low hanging DLC fruits to harvest. :eek:

Regarding the White House controversy. I agree with people calling it out as being unfit for being in the game. There should be principles ruling these wonders:
  1. They were built during the timespan of the game
  2. They became historically relevant during the time period through colonial exploration
  3. No permanent effects, at best temporary effects
My reasoning is as follows: Nothing in the world of statesmanship has a unique function that can't be replaced or substituted. So what if Italy houses the Vatican? Already priced in when it comes to population interests, it's not new in 1836 when the game starts. So what if USA has the White House? So what if France has Versailles? Everybody already knew about these things and lived with them for decades or even hundreds of years. Even if Germany can build the Reichstag after unification, I'll have to ask SO WHAT? It's just a government building like any other, at best you get another level of bureaucratic buildings in the state!

Yes, even the Vatican should at best be purely visual. It governs itself and granting special bonuses to Italy is especially egregious in this case, because it represents a WORLD RELIGION. It's also strange when I can just click it away as any government type, it would also be strange when I can't start making things hard on the Vatican through legislation, etc. this building would have been better off not being considered in the game at all. There are too many ifs involved in the matter, it can only lead too stupid outcomes.

Discovering the Pyramids? Yes please, give money to Egypt, diplomatic plays! Discovering Machu Picchu? Cool, let's see who finds it first and gets to earn some prestige for a while. Building the Eiffel Tower? Ok, might be cool for the people of Paris and impressive in the world exhibition. Grant France some prestige and have some Parisians especially become somewhat more patriotic, dunno...

Currently the logic behind wonders doesn't look good!
 
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So, the battle of wonders continues in the Victoria 3 forum, eh... I really hoped Victoria 3 wouldn't have those disincarnated global modifiers atrocities that are called wonders in EUIV. I don't care if they are "beautiful" or add "immersion". If they are anything other than a costly building giving local bonuses that you can build anywhere and duplicate, they are unrealistic and therefore bad.

If there is one thing that breaks immersion, for a game which otherwise looks to be fairly realistic, it's adding unique buildings with magical properties, supposed to give a national bonus to the country it belongs to.

I'm disappointed.

edit : interesting that so far almost a third of the comments are "respectfully disagreeing" with the OP.
 
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Is there a chance you can reduce the scale of all 3d assets as well as roads/rails.I think being smaller you can fit more in the map giving a better feel of the scale of a nation.
 
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The Panama Canal looks great.
 
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There are a many reasons for this:
  • Monuments are positioned manually on the map to ensure they fit into the landscape and city hubs. It would be virtually impossible to ensure the Statue of Liberty seamlessly meshes with every coastline unless we painstakingly went through every single coastal state and experimented with its placement there. This means doing this for all states (currently over 700) for all monuments in the game (currently 11) to ensure we place every single monument in the game in a unique position.
  • Many of these monuments are already in place at the start of the game. Nevertheless, if we did have a system where you could build the Eiffel Tower anywhere, then we ought to also have a system where you could build Vatican City somewhere else if you razed it. This means that for consistency we ought to be manually positioning the Vatican City in every single state even though it's unlikely to ever be built elsewhere.
  • Should countries be allowed to build duplicates? After all, if the White House gives such a sweet bonus then shouldn't France or China be able to build the White House too? At that point these buildings become not really special in any way - the White House becomes just a "Bureaucracy Multiplier Palace", the Eiffel Tower just a "Prestige Tower", etc.
  • Some of these monuments are ancient, like Angkor Wat, and are special for this very reason. While you might be able to destroy these in-game, the idea of rebuilding them just doesn't make sense. The idea of another country rebuilding them in another place doubly doesn't make sense.
As should be clear from the above, making monuments generic and buildable by anyone would not only take inordinate time and effort for the development team compared to what it adds to the game, but also cause them to lose a lot of their unique appeal and introduces many strange exception cases that also has to be dealt with. This means we were left with two options: historical monuments in predefined places, or no monuments in any places. We felt it would be a missed opportunity to not acknowledge the enormous feats of engineering countries often engaged in for prestige during this era, so we went with door number one.
...then how did you manage to get generic monuments, especially as map objects, into Imperator: Rome? And those also existed alongside historical ones. Sot hose points while fair on the surface, seem a bit moot when considering you already did something similar in another game. Just seems odd that it was viable for IR but suddenly isn't anymore for V3?
 
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I don't like that the Panama Canal is just one lock either. Even as an abstraction it doesn't look good. There isn't that much space to play with, but I'd rather get rid of the two lanes, reduce its width and have two canal stretches (preferably one at an angle) and Lake Gatun instead.

The White House as a representation of bureaucracy is extremely silly. As far as seats of governments are concerned it's pretty small and cramped. It works very well as a symbol, but the government would function just the same if it resided somewhere else.
 
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  • Should countries be allowed to build duplicates? After all, if the White House gives such a sweet bonus then shouldn't France or China be able to build the White House too? At that point these buildings become not really special in any way - the White House becomes just a "Bureaucracy Multiplier Palace", the Eiffel Tower just a "Prestige Tower", etc.
That's the point for the white house... there was and is nothing special about it. It's only 'special' today because it's the residence of the US President, the most important person in our modern world. If the US President would decide to rule from the Town Hall of Concord tomorrow, this would became the most important building. There was and is absolutelly nothing that makes the White House special and diverent from other government buildings in other countries. I can get your argument about the Statue of Liberty or ethe Eiffel tower etc... But the White House? What is special about it? And if we only have 11 monuments... why is the White House Among it if the USA already has another one with the Statue of Liberty? And while you could explain the reason why the Vatican boosts power of the theocratic caste... the Voting effect of the White House absolutelly makes zero sense logically. And I'm not even against something like a SMALL boost for immigration because of the statue of liberty (and maybe a relationship bonus with whoever build it for the USA?) for exemple. The boost just needs to be so small that a crisis in the USA should still stop migration.
 
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