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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #5 - Production Methods

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Hello again and happy Thursday! Today we will be taking a deeper look inside Buildings to explore Production Methods. These determine the functions of the building, its inputs and outputs, and what employee types it requires to operate.

Many management games let you upgrade a building to increase its efficiency or expand its functionality. In these games, after the upgrade investment has been paid the impact is permanent and nearly always superior in every way to the building's previous functionality. But in Victoria 3 there are no actions without reactions, and novel innovations don't just make buildings better with no side effects. Improving industrial processes over time is to be expected, but in some cases those improvements might require goods as input that the country has scant access to, while others permit the output of a new type of end product at the expense of the old one. As a result, buildings in Victoria 3 require more flexible upgrade paths than what's afforded by permanent, linear, “no-brainer” improvements.

All buildings have several categories of Production Methods, usually between 2 and 5. Only one is active at any given time in each category. Most categories fall into one of these types:

Base: governs the general "tech level" and efficiency of the building, produces goods typical for the building type
Refining: reduces output of typical goods in favor of output of specialized or luxury goods, sometimes adding a special input
Automation: adds industrial goods as input to reduce the building's unskilled workforce requirement
Ownership: determines who owns shares in the building; typically governed by Laws

With the right technologies Food Industries can make Groceries from both Grain (Bakeries) and Fish (Canneries). They can also refine Grain and Sugar into Liquor (Distilleries). With advanced technologies Food Industries can be partially automated, drastically reducing the need for unskilled labor. Simple Food Industries are operated by Merchant Guilds (Shopkeepers), while more advanced and profitable Food Industries are owned by Capitalists who reinvest some of their dividends.

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As one example, an Iron Mine's base Production Method determines if miners use only picks and shovels or if they also use some sort of engine-driven pumping mechanism. There are several different pumping technologies which also determine what fuel is used. The more advanced the pumping mechanism the more deposits can be accessed and the faster Iron can be mined, but the more Coal or Oil is used in the process. With higher tech pumps comes a requirement for more Engineers and Machinists to be on-site to control and oversee its operation. This creates more demand for qualified workers and also opens up a number of better paid positions to those Pops who meet the qualifications.

The revolution in chemical sciences of the era also enabled the use of explosives in mining, which is a secondary Production Method category used only in mines. Once Nitroglycerin is invented, it can be used in mines to generate even more minerals, at the expense of Explosives produced by the Chemical Industry but also with a higher rate of workplace accidents. By researching less volatile Dynamite, even more minerals are extracted at the expense of even more Explosives, with the additional benefit that far fewer workers will blow themselves up on the job.

Once invented, portable Steam Donkey engines can be deployed at mining sites to drastically reduce the amount of manual labor required just for hauling. This costs the building some money in the form of Coal and Engines, but reduces the amount of money they have to pay in wages. Perhaps more importantly it frees those Laborers up to do other work in other buildings if the state is running low on workers. But if wages are already very depressed it might not be a great idea to purchase expensive industrial goods just to increase the unqualified labor pool further, so this might not be a no-brainer decision for a player to make.

In most countries, simple mines are owned and operated by Merchant Guilds at game start. These are small-time purveyors of the goods produced represented by Shopkeepers. Once mines start to industrialize, Capitalists step in to take over ownership. In most cases these Capitalists will come from Shopkeepers promoted to these newly created positions, but some might come from other Pops in the state, even other Capitalists in buildings not quite as lucrative as these new mines. There are fewer Capitalists than Shopkeepers but they draw a higher wage, and more importantly they will reinvest some of their earnings into the country's expanding industry depending on how much profit their workplace is generating for them. As new ideas spread across your society you might be able to make the mining industry publicly traded instead of privately held, and later on in the game perhaps even nationalize them to be run by government bureaucrats or turn them into cooperatives where profit is split between workers.

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Production Methods aren't limited to consuming and producing goods. Government Administrations employ Bureaucrats and Clerks who use Paper to produce Bureaucracy, one of the game's Capacities that let you govern more people and extend more state services to them. Railways consume Engines and a fuel such as Coal to produce both Transportation and Infrastructure, the former which is sold on the market and the latter which allows the state to support more buildings without loss of Market Access. Universities employ Academics that let the state guide research and development of new technologies and ideas. Virtually any kind of currency, modifier, or effect can be produced by Production Methods in buildings and can be applied in a variety of ways to the country, state, or even the building itself.

A basic Government Administration consumes 10 Paper and produces 50 Bureaucracy per fully-staffed level, but each additional level beyond the first adds a +2% Throughput bonus due to economy of scale. This increases both consumption of Paper and output of Bureaucracy, yielding more productivity from each of the Pops that work the building.

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This of course adds a tremendous capacity for modding in new Buildings and Production Methods! Embassies that increase your Influence, but which can also be configured to consume Wine and Meat at state expense to increase the speed at which you Improve Relations? Shantytown Temples that can only be built on coastlines, that consume Fish and create jobs for pops qualifying for the Deep Ones profession, increasing state mortality but also the weekly rate of the global cthulhu_rising counter? We can't wait to see what madness you unleash!

If tweaking multiple Production Methods across several categories on every single building in the game sounds a bit complex compared to linear building upgrades - you're right! Thankfully we've built a number of tools to help with this process. Foremost among these are the Buildings panel, where you can get an overview of all buildings in your country organized by major and minor type. For example you could get an overview of all Rural buildings, or all Furniture Manufactories, or all Ports. If you have buildings of the same type in several different states, you can break it down further to view the individual building. On each level you can see how profitable the building is and adjust its Production Methods. You can even set all Production Methods for a certain building type to a specific setting all across your country with one click.

From the Buildings panel you can get a birds-eye view of all industries in your country and see at a glance how they’re doing financially. You can change Production Methods on an individual building or on all of them at once. You can even expand buildings directly from this screen if you so choose, or click on one to get an in-depth view of its balance sheet and workforce.

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To minimize the requirement for mental math we have also created prediction tools that give you a breakdown of what to expect from choosing a certain Production Method, based on profitability predictions taking adjusted production and consumption into account, and summarizing which new job positions will be created and which will disappear. While it may on the surface seem obvious to just enable the Production Methods that make the buildings more profitable, keep in mind the societal effects as well - are there enough Pops in the state that qualify for the more advanced jobs this new process requires? Will the wage for these new jobs be sufficient to entice those Pops to switch professions? Will you inadvertently create a whole new class of well-to-do Machinists that may have pro-labor union sentiments? Or will the increased profits not lead to higher wages in the building because they're already competitive and fully employed, and will simply result in more dividends for the shareholders which will be funneled into increased luxury consumption? Which you choose might depend on your population’s social mobility, what politics you favor in your country (a socialist uprising may not be in your plans!) and whether you're able to supply luxuries yourself without benefiting your rival. More profitable domestic industries are never bad, but should be far from the only consideration when building your society.

Predictive tooltips will explain the anticipated impact on the building’s Balance as a result of changes in production, consumption, and wage requirements, as well as the changes in employment that could also impact the country’s politics over time. You will also be forewarned if there aren’t enough qualifying Pops to take on any new professions created, as this could limit your industry’s effectiveness.

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That is all for this week. We will return to discussing more economic intricacies later, but for the next little while we'll be exploring domestic politics - starting next week when Martin will be presenting Interest Groups!
 
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Buildings don't currently gain experience as such, but State Traits can impact Buildings in their state in various ways, creating local differences in viability and competitiveness. This is in addition to the resource potentials that determine how large industries of various types you can build there, of course.
I want a few states here and there with really good output efficiency but mediocre to average potential reserves. Like Arkansas coal.
 
Out of question how does wages going to work with slave pops? for instance If I build a sugar plantation will a slave get a wage (to represent some level of expenditure on slaves to keep them alive and working) or all slave cost will be payed in input? (Food input for example) are there pops that guard the slaves?
 
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Why? They’re giving us the opportunity to play any number of fanciful socio-economic systems that crashed and burned before they even got put into practice.
“What I mean by laissez-faire is not any economic system that actually existed, but an alternative history based on anarcho-capitalist theories from a century later,” is a legitimate answer. In that case, they would need to call the policies of people like the British Liberal Party something else. If the Devs did want to put anarcho-capitalism in as an ahistorical option, I would highly recommend that it change the form of government to let you play the robber barons who make all the decisions important to the game. To change a law or start a war, you’d have to agitate the public with your yellow press and buy off politicians.
Regardless, other than subsidies and tariffs, many liberal governments of this era were very restrained in their intervention in the economy.
H. H. Asquith was the Liberal prime minister who passed the Munitions of War Act 1915 to put the armaments industry under the control of the state during the Great War. The other Liberal prime minister with a majority in this time period was William Gladstone, who supported free trade and was against the use of tariffs as an industrial policy. They also supported universal public education, legalizing labor unions, reducing the work day, and unemployment insurance, in notable contrast to the Anarcho-Liberals of Vicky 2. The last Liberal prime minister was David Lloyd George, and his People’s Budget had some ideas in it that might be interesting to model as what-ifs, but much of his support came from the Conservative Party.

To give an example of how a Liberal government thought of production methods, Gladstone’s President of the Board of Trade at this time was A. J. Mandella, who had been one of the founders of the first steam-powered, gas-lit hoisery factory in Nottingham, and whose new machines enabled stockings to be mass-produced at one hundred times the speed of hand-knitting. He hoped that steam power could be "so applied and developed as to lift the mass of workers out of serfdom." (And yes, he did hold the office of Sheriff of Nottingham.) So some of the same people who served in Gladstone’s “Laissez-faire” government were in fact the same people who’d made the decision to upgrade the production methods of the clothing factory in Nottingham.
 
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With every dev diary, I become more excited since there are so many good ideas.

Question/suggestion: Pops should be able to own buildings far away, and depending on the local laws, even in foreign states to model global investment and rentier countries.
Question/suggestion: How will limited worker pools be distributed among the buildings? Will there be competition based on wages a building can offer?
Expropriating these capitalists could cause them to support interventionist foreign policy, as it happened with the US and caribbean states repeatedly.
 
Since Vicky 3's anarchists will probably trend more towards, say, anarchosyndicalism (your local syndicate looks a lot like local government, and the federation your local syndicate sends delegates to looks a lot like regional/national government) than anarchoprimitivism, it's not quite as laughable as it sounds :)
You don't understand. Local government electing state government that then elects national government is so utterly different from everything that has came before that to describe it as government is just wrong.

See, what people get wrong about anarchism is they associate it with anarchy (can't imagine why) as opposed to the actual anarchist political program which is town council democracy if you're feeling generous and rule by housing association if you aren't.
 
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From what I see here, pops choose their jobs entirely based on their wages and on whether they are educated to a sufficient degree to perform them. In the case of goods, however, that was not entirely the case, and you mentioned that certain cultures would be "obsessed" with consuming certain types of goods (the british with their tea, for example), and would try to gobble them up regardless of the price.

Wouldn't it make sense if there were certain jobs that in certain cultures people would strive towards regardless of the material incentive? Such as priests for both islamic and christian cultures or certain types of shamans in certain more isolated societies or even certain types of intellectuals, researchers and artists in societies where people fetishize that (the bohemian artists and intellectuals in Paris many of which lived in utter poverty). Hell perhaps in certain socialist countries there could be an obsession with bureacrat jobs due to the prestige of forming part of the "Vanguard".

Wouldn't it make sanse to include "obesssions" for jobs as well depending on countries and cultures which would incline towards these jobs, specially in the case of priests and other figures regarded as culturally important?
 
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Well that's your playstyle. It seems to me that Vicky 3 is shaping up to be a game where you will be disappointed about how economic management works. Again I think if they allowed the player the option to automate changes in Production Methods that would be fine, but I am completely opposed to tying how much control the player has over it to the economic system. They are already doing things to reduce the level of micromanagement the player needs to deal with but it is clear they want the player to have a role in managing their nation's economy.

I don't want to be cut off from being able to fiddle with Production Methods just because my nation happens to be Free Trade (Vicky 3's LF equivalent). All the complexity involved with this system makes for great strategic decision making and being able to mold your economy how you see fit as technology advances. Forcing the player to change economic system just to be able to have full agency regarding Production Methods is just not appealing to me. It also is opposed to the devs own stated preference for making every economic system a viable option for the player and not making one by default better than another.

I understand that you don't find that appealing, I just don't know what to say. It would be nice if it could be modded to allow for AI decision making regarding Production Methods, then there could be mods that overhaul the economic side of the game and allow for you to be able to sit back and have the LF gameplay you want. I just think it is clear that the devs aren't in favor of locking players out of systems that are important to the society building aspect of the game.

Free Trade is not synonymous with LF, but they do overlap quite a bit. I don’t see any reason why what defines LF economics is going to be precluded from being a way to play the game. It is as illogical as not allowing the player to micromanage a centrally planned economy.

Of course, no economy was perfectly LF in real life, and few are likely to be in Vicky3. But it should be a continuum, where the more LF you play, the more the pops are free to run the economy w/o your active management.

I’ll keep beating this drum until the devs cone around to include a way of playing that was viable in the previous game.
 
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You say that shopkeepers will own mines at the start of the game, but this would be incorrect. Mineral resources (and often mineral rights) were owned by landowners, and in Europe many estates held rights to minerals, even after selling or leasing a piece of land (indeed this is still a problem with land purchases in the UK today on unregistered land). These resources were incredibly important sources of income for landowners, especially in Germany, England, Russia, France, and Japan. I urge you to reconsider this choice.
Yes, it should be Aristocrats who own some buildings like that, who would then become Capitalists as the main source of their income changes from peasants' rent to factories and mines.
 
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Shopkeepers are middle class pops that are made obsolete in large numbers when you switch away from the early production methods, which is how we simulate this effect.
This is really neat, but, I do hope the game has a way to represent, like, small shops, bars, boticaries, barbershops, etc. Not each one individually, but this kind of jobs at general at least. The kind of jobs that, at this time, were still largely in hand of shopkeepers and middle-class, and meant that at least in cities, this sectors still were a significant part of the population beyond industrial workers of any kind.
 
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This is really neat, but, I do hope the game has a way to represent, like, small shops, bars, boticaries, barbershops, etc. Not each one individually, but this kind of jobs at general at least. The kind of jobs that, at this time, were still largely in hand of shopkeepers and middle-class, and meant that at least in cities, this sectors still were a significant part of the population beyond industrial workers of any kind.
My guess is that this will be modeled by Shopkeepers working in Urban Centers generating Service.
 
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At the moment we're erring on the side of restricting ownership quite strictly, not by government form specifically, but rather by your country's various economic laws. We want the economic laws to feel very distinct and have big impacts on the population, and if we were to permit most of them under all systems this impact wouldn't be felt as strongly. Of course these are balancing decisions and may change before release.
Can you have "legacy" businesses that retain forms of ownership your country doesn't currently have access to? Like an industry that was nationalized by a socialist government but the new liberal one hasn't bothered to privatize, or a cooperative that my new fascist government has decided is working fine so why screw it up?

Also, how fast is the turnover in system? If my country goes socialist, does that turn every business into a state owned enterprise immediately or are they nationalized piecemeal (which would make sense if you had to pay compensation under certain systems).
 
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If I’m playing LF, I want the default to be that the owners of everything are in charge of, well, everything. I cannot emphasize enough how much I loathe the idea of being expected to do literally anything in the day-to-day operation of my economy if I’m playing LF. I don’t want to make these decisions on a case-by-case, regional, state, or national level. I detest the idea.
There should be a button that lets you hand over control of a state’s economy to the AI. Most players would use it some of the time, but a player who wanted to use it all the time, could.
 
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What about land ownership for the farms? Traditionally a lot of these were owned by the Church or by the Nobility and only ever taken from them by revolution or land reform - in the UK, for example, some estimates have the landed gentry still owning 30% of all land in 2019.

How is pop income modeled? do Aristocrats get money from owning something or is it abstracted away? Obviously a world where the nobility have their land taken from them and sold will have different politics to one where the nobles still own the majority of the land
 
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Speaking of which, is it reasonable to hope for 2021 release? Has Covid influenced the game development in any unexpected way?
Some features are still under consistent enough iteration that they aren't willing to discuss them yet which would make me feel that 2021 release is very unlikely (we are somehow already half way done it!)
 
So they will be demoted, they won't just stay as a capitalist working as a miner.
I think it might be more that some of the terminology from V2 "demotion etc" doesn't necessarily apply as cleanly in V3.

They change their jobs but might still be very clearly upper class based on their overall wealth. It's just that (for some reason) being a specific business owner isn't in the cards at the moment for whatever reason.
 
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