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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #5 - Production Methods

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Hello again and happy Thursday! Today we will be taking a deeper look inside Buildings to explore Production Methods. These determine the functions of the building, its inputs and outputs, and what employee types it requires to operate.

Many management games let you upgrade a building to increase its efficiency or expand its functionality. In these games, after the upgrade investment has been paid the impact is permanent and nearly always superior in every way to the building's previous functionality. But in Victoria 3 there are no actions without reactions, and novel innovations don't just make buildings better with no side effects. Improving industrial processes over time is to be expected, but in some cases those improvements might require goods as input that the country has scant access to, while others permit the output of a new type of end product at the expense of the old one. As a result, buildings in Victoria 3 require more flexible upgrade paths than what's afforded by permanent, linear, “no-brainer” improvements.

All buildings have several categories of Production Methods, usually between 2 and 5. Only one is active at any given time in each category. Most categories fall into one of these types:

Base: governs the general "tech level" and efficiency of the building, produces goods typical for the building type
Refining: reduces output of typical goods in favor of output of specialized or luxury goods, sometimes adding a special input
Automation: adds industrial goods as input to reduce the building's unskilled workforce requirement
Ownership: determines who owns shares in the building; typically governed by Laws

With the right technologies Food Industries can make Groceries from both Grain (Bakeries) and Fish (Canneries). They can also refine Grain and Sugar into Liquor (Distilleries). With advanced technologies Food Industries can be partially automated, drastically reducing the need for unskilled labor. Simple Food Industries are operated by Merchant Guilds (Shopkeepers), while more advanced and profitable Food Industries are owned by Capitalists who reinvest some of their dividends.

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As one example, an Iron Mine's base Production Method determines if miners use only picks and shovels or if they also use some sort of engine-driven pumping mechanism. There are several different pumping technologies which also determine what fuel is used. The more advanced the pumping mechanism the more deposits can be accessed and the faster Iron can be mined, but the more Coal or Oil is used in the process. With higher tech pumps comes a requirement for more Engineers and Machinists to be on-site to control and oversee its operation. This creates more demand for qualified workers and also opens up a number of better paid positions to those Pops who meet the qualifications.

The revolution in chemical sciences of the era also enabled the use of explosives in mining, which is a secondary Production Method category used only in mines. Once Nitroglycerin is invented, it can be used in mines to generate even more minerals, at the expense of Explosives produced by the Chemical Industry but also with a higher rate of workplace accidents. By researching less volatile Dynamite, even more minerals are extracted at the expense of even more Explosives, with the additional benefit that far fewer workers will blow themselves up on the job.

Once invented, portable Steam Donkey engines can be deployed at mining sites to drastically reduce the amount of manual labor required just for hauling. This costs the building some money in the form of Coal and Engines, but reduces the amount of money they have to pay in wages. Perhaps more importantly it frees those Laborers up to do other work in other buildings if the state is running low on workers. But if wages are already very depressed it might not be a great idea to purchase expensive industrial goods just to increase the unqualified labor pool further, so this might not be a no-brainer decision for a player to make.

In most countries, simple mines are owned and operated by Merchant Guilds at game start. These are small-time purveyors of the goods produced represented by Shopkeepers. Once mines start to industrialize, Capitalists step in to take over ownership. In most cases these Capitalists will come from Shopkeepers promoted to these newly created positions, but some might come from other Pops in the state, even other Capitalists in buildings not quite as lucrative as these new mines. There are fewer Capitalists than Shopkeepers but they draw a higher wage, and more importantly they will reinvest some of their earnings into the country's expanding industry depending on how much profit their workplace is generating for them. As new ideas spread across your society you might be able to make the mining industry publicly traded instead of privately held, and later on in the game perhaps even nationalize them to be run by government bureaucrats or turn them into cooperatives where profit is split between workers.

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Production Methods aren't limited to consuming and producing goods. Government Administrations employ Bureaucrats and Clerks who use Paper to produce Bureaucracy, one of the game's Capacities that let you govern more people and extend more state services to them. Railways consume Engines and a fuel such as Coal to produce both Transportation and Infrastructure, the former which is sold on the market and the latter which allows the state to support more buildings without loss of Market Access. Universities employ Academics that let the state guide research and development of new technologies and ideas. Virtually any kind of currency, modifier, or effect can be produced by Production Methods in buildings and can be applied in a variety of ways to the country, state, or even the building itself.

A basic Government Administration consumes 10 Paper and produces 50 Bureaucracy per fully-staffed level, but each additional level beyond the first adds a +2% Throughput bonus due to economy of scale. This increases both consumption of Paper and output of Bureaucracy, yielding more productivity from each of the Pops that work the building.

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This of course adds a tremendous capacity for modding in new Buildings and Production Methods! Embassies that increase your Influence, but which can also be configured to consume Wine and Meat at state expense to increase the speed at which you Improve Relations? Shantytown Temples that can only be built on coastlines, that consume Fish and create jobs for pops qualifying for the Deep Ones profession, increasing state mortality but also the weekly rate of the global cthulhu_rising counter? We can't wait to see what madness you unleash!

If tweaking multiple Production Methods across several categories on every single building in the game sounds a bit complex compared to linear building upgrades - you're right! Thankfully we've built a number of tools to help with this process. Foremost among these are the Buildings panel, where you can get an overview of all buildings in your country organized by major and minor type. For example you could get an overview of all Rural buildings, or all Furniture Manufactories, or all Ports. If you have buildings of the same type in several different states, you can break it down further to view the individual building. On each level you can see how profitable the building is and adjust its Production Methods. You can even set all Production Methods for a certain building type to a specific setting all across your country with one click.

From the Buildings panel you can get a birds-eye view of all industries in your country and see at a glance how they’re doing financially. You can change Production Methods on an individual building or on all of them at once. You can even expand buildings directly from this screen if you so choose, or click on one to get an in-depth view of its balance sheet and workforce.

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To minimize the requirement for mental math we have also created prediction tools that give you a breakdown of what to expect from choosing a certain Production Method, based on profitability predictions taking adjusted production and consumption into account, and summarizing which new job positions will be created and which will disappear. While it may on the surface seem obvious to just enable the Production Methods that make the buildings more profitable, keep in mind the societal effects as well - are there enough Pops in the state that qualify for the more advanced jobs this new process requires? Will the wage for these new jobs be sufficient to entice those Pops to switch professions? Will you inadvertently create a whole new class of well-to-do Machinists that may have pro-labor union sentiments? Or will the increased profits not lead to higher wages in the building because they're already competitive and fully employed, and will simply result in more dividends for the shareholders which will be funneled into increased luxury consumption? Which you choose might depend on your population’s social mobility, what politics you favor in your country (a socialist uprising may not be in your plans!) and whether you're able to supply luxuries yourself without benefiting your rival. More profitable domestic industries are never bad, but should be far from the only consideration when building your society.

Predictive tooltips will explain the anticipated impact on the building’s Balance as a result of changes in production, consumption, and wage requirements, as well as the changes in employment that could also impact the country’s politics over time. You will also be forewarned if there aren’t enough qualifying Pops to take on any new professions created, as this could limit your industry’s effectiveness.

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That is all for this week. We will return to discussing more economic intricacies later, but for the next little while we'll be exploring domestic politics - starting next week when Martin will be presenting Interest Groups!
 
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Very interesting and innovative system.
Some questions though:
1. Do I understand correctly that the Player sets the production methods even if the factory is not owned by the government?

2. What about lands, mines and factories owned by aristocracy or ruling families around the world? For example Russian Imperial Family owned over 10 factories and millions of hectares of land.

3. What about state-granted monopolies?

4. How will Chartered Companies (like East India Company) who owned practically everything in some colonies be represented?

5. Will the player be able to enact good-specific or production method specific duties and taxes? For example to tax imported steam engines to stimulate local production? Or give tax credits to companies who use more advanced manufacturing techniques?

6. Medical services and Education - will they be tradable goods and how will methods of manufacture affect them? Will the Player be able to give preference to religious schools or to freethinker academies - with corresponding changes in values of people educated in different places?
 
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I'm curious what that £+ symbol is supposed to be, is that the button for subsidizing an industry? Just seems like it might be since in all the screenshots it's darkened so I'm guessing that means at least the U.S. and France have an economic system that doesn't allow you to subsidize private industries.
It might also say if you are currently subsidizing the factory or not. That color might be you can subsidize this, but you aren't for some reason.
 
I like this but I have two questions

1) Will some labor saving additions automatically be disabled when there's high unemployment and it becomes more profitable to just use labor?

2) I like this system and the depth it adds, but I have some worries about how much micro this introduces. Victoria is a society simulator but it's also an empire and world simulator and I hope the gardening doesn't mean your head always has to be straight down, especially if you're focusing on politics or diplomacy for a few years. When I went back to play Vic II, I realized that I wanted a much deeper economic system, which this adds, but I also feel that Paradox impulse to aim my playthrough towards a specific kind of ideology or outcome (communist, hyper industrialized, control all of one resource, ultra militarist, as automated as possible, fight the civil war early, add canada to america, etc), not just to slowly guide an economy to prosperity again and again.
 
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This is the first dev diary that I've seen that is simply amazing in its detail of treatment and sophistication of concept. Wow.
So here's a question. When captalists displace shopkeepers from ownership of a business, do those shopkeepers get pissed off sometimes and begin to riot and burn the new business and its equipment? Sure hope so! Where are the Luddites, I ask you! :D
In general, pops whose jobs are made obsolete by changes in technology or laws should be angered by it, especially if they used to own the industries that have been taken over by others.
 
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Looking great!!

Question: Can we get see a list of every good in Vic 3? Things will make more sense going forward for me if we know the full table.
 
I used qualify when I don't necessarily mean that. A POP that is a bureaucrat type probably won't be allowed to (like the game restricts them from) take a job that is not specifically for a bureaucrat type POP. Like a capitalist won't go for a machinist position even if for some weird reason a machinist will pay more than a capitalist.
This isn't how the Victoria 3 Qualifications mechanic works actually, a Capitalist might very well qualify to take a (higher-paying) Machinist job. "Qualifications" is taken to mean "could this person possibly be offered this job"? More on the Qualifications system in a future DD, it has a bit more nuance to it and is not actually a binary thing.

As a result the initial question is legit, it's possible for a middle or even upper strata Pop to take a mining job that pays better even though there's a risk of dying. In actuality, if these Pops are willing to do that they're in pretty dire financial straits.
 
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Yeah, there will be a cost for changing production methods, though we're still iterating on that part so not ready to explain exactly how it works.
Does this apply to Ownership as well? For example if I want to pursue land reform and take land from Landowners and give it to small farmers do I have to compensate these Landowners? Or if I want to abolish slavery peacefully would I need to pay from government coffers to free the slaves?
 
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A stupid question, but what do the green numbers at the top right corner of each production method mean?

At first I thought it was the level of the production method's tech, but then I noticed it's used in the "bird's eye" national overview... So is it the number of building using a specific PM?

I'm confused...
 
On ownership, does publcially traded means they're owned by all the capitalists, or by banks? Are things like big industrialists and nexuses of finance interest groups? Is there an economic version of an interest group that may try and monopolize?

And is there a halfway between government run and co ops like yugoslavia? Does ideology change how government run firms work, the war economy in the US during WWII and the soviets aren't quite the same? Is there corporatism?

Will there be dis-economies of scale?
 
This isn't how the Victoria 3 Qualifications mechanic works actually, a Capitalist might very well qualify to take a (higher-paying) Machinist job. "Qualifications" is taken to mean "could this person possibly be offered this job"? More on the Qualifications system in a future DD, it had a bit more nuance to it and is not actually a binary thing.

As a result the initial question is legit, it's possible for a middle or even upper strata Pop to take a mining job that pays better even though there's a risk of dying. In actuality, if these Pops are willing to do that they're in pretty dire financial straits.
Oh then I stand very much corrected. I would imagine they would just be demoted no?

Anyway, is there anything else that motivates them other than a wage then?
 
On ownership, does publcially traded means they're owned by all the capitalists, or by banks? Are things like big industrialists and nexuses of finance interest groups? Is there an economic version of an interest group that may try and monopolize?

And is there a halfway between government run and co ops like yugoslavia? Does ideology change how government run firms work, the war economy in the US during WWII and the soviets aren't quite the same? Is there corporatism?
As a catchall answer to the questions about private ownership vs publicly traded, how this works isn't something we're ready to answer at this stage.
 
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Nice! This sounds original and interesting!
Once Nitroglycerin is invented, it can be used in mines to generate even more minerals, at the expense of Explosives produced by the Chemical Industry but also with a higher rate of workplace accidents.
Once invented, portable Steam Donkey engines can be deployed at mining sites to drastically reduce the amount of manual labor required just for hauling.
“Before I let that steam drill beat me down,
I’ll die with my hammer in my hand, Lord Lord,
Die with my hammer in my hand.”


Railways consume Engines and a fuel such as Coal to produce both Transportation and Infrastructure, the former which is sold on the market and the latter which allows the state to support more buildings without loss of Market Access. Universities employ Academics that let the state guide research and development of new technologies and ideas.
That makes the situation with transport clearer. One thing I’m left wondering is how we’ll supply troops in hostile territory. Will this use “transportation?” Another is: “let the state guide research and development.” Does that mean universities will just poach talent that would otherwise be inventing things in the private sector, or will they increase the amount of research, too?

A basic Government Administration consumes 10 Paper and produces 50 Bureaucracy per fully-staffed level, but each additional level beyond the first adds a +2% Throughput bonus due to economy of scale. This increases both consumption of Paper and output of Bureaucracy, yielding more productivity from each of the Pops that work the building.
You and I have very different definitions of “productivity.” Brave of you to post this where your boss can see.
 
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A stupid question, but what do the green numbers at the top right corner of each production method mean?

At first I thought it was the level of the production method's tech, but then I noticed it's used in the "bird's eye" national overview... So is it the number of building using a specific PM?

I'm confused...
Current number of options to choose from.
 
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I like this system, I only hope that managing it will not bee too difficult. I realize that the game is not yet in sufficiently playable state, but I would like to ask when could we expect some gameplay footage, perhaps via twitch streaming.
Speaking of which, is it reasonable to hope for 2021 release? Has Covid influenced the game development in any unexpected way?
 
Will the player be able to change building names? It would be nice to give custom names to industries, or name universities after a great leader/general.
(Edit: to add to the idea, having custom names would help browse the buildings list easier)
 
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Not to be naggy again but are their any, any at all, planned changes for the UI/GUI? Eg scaling or a "old version" (vic2). I really really don't like the look of this UI, while I'm sure I'd get used it to, it's really holding a lot of my hype up as a result.

Regardless, great work devs, the actual gameplay mechanics look really cool. Have we got a Political parties dev diary upcoming?
 
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Another thing about state run economies, some scholars like Robert Brenner have gone into how a lot of issues were less about the planners and suits as such and more about the supremacy of managers, who actually controlled firms and lied (often out of necessity) about all aspects of production. In Victoria this would mean you just get nonsense numbers from buildings and they don't do what you say, which probably wouldn't work.

[Edit: To the downvoters, I'm not saying there were no issues with planning, I'm just talking about how things would face the planner/the player]


Assuming you're going to disadvantage a state run economy, what's the philosophy you're using to approach it? I watched the PDX talks and it seems like you want to keep these questions open about what kind of economy can work best. Are you just going to flavor economic systems, or including their assumed issues, or flavoring them with those issues but allowing the player to mitigate them? In VicII the difficulty of a planned economy is shown by making the player do everything, but that doesn't work in Vic III. Are you going to look up economic thinkers of the systems and present it roughly in their terms? Like Paul Mattick, Marx, Engels, Mandel, Grossman, maybe Fine/Roberts or Sweezey/Baran?
 
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This isn't how the Victoria 3 Qualifications mechanic works actually, a Capitalist might very well qualify to take a (higher-paying) Machinist job. "Qualifications" is taken to mean "could this person possibly be offered this job"? More on the Qualifications system in a future DD, it had a bit more nuance to it and is not actually a binary thing.

As a result the initial question is legit, it's possible for a middle or even upper strata Pop to take a mining job that pays better even though there's a risk of dying. In actuality, if these Pops are willing to do that they're in pretty dire financial straits.
Technically, a capitalist is defined by its relationship to the means of production, it's weird to imagine a capitalist work alongside to other worker, qualified or not. They admin or just possess.
 
What about wages in a command economy?
Buildings orient themselves financially the same way under Command Economy as other economies, with the difference that all buildings are considered subsidized. So a building that's very profitable on its own doesn't burden the treasury, but any "profits" would (by default) be siphoned off by the Bureaucrats in charge. Meanwhile, buildings that can't carry their own weight will require regular (automatic) cash infusions from state coffers.
 
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