• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #6 - Interest Groups

DD6 Thumb.png


Hello once again and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Where previous dev diaries have been focusing on the economy, we’re now going to switch gears to another core pillar of the Victoria series - internal politics! More specifically, we’re going to be talking about Interest Groups, which form the nucleus of Victoria 3’s political gameplay.

What then, are Interest Groups? Fundamentally, an Interest Group is a collection of pops that espouse certain political views and want to change the country to be more in line with those views. Interest Groups are drawn from a number of different templates, but will vary in their exact views from country to country, based on factors such as the local religion, which social movements have appeared in the country or the personal views of their leader.

The Landowners is an Interest Group dominated by the Aristocracy and tends to be firmly in the conservative side of politics
dd6_1.png


As mentioned, Interest Groups are fundamentally made up of Pops - all individuals in all Pops are either members of an Interest Group or Politically Inactive, with the ratio in each based on factors such as Profession, Wealth, Literacy etc. Individuals inside Pops contribute Political Strength to their Interest Group of choice, with the amount they contribute again dependent on multiple factors, the main ones being their material Wealth and the status (and/or votes!) they are offered under the nation’s power structure.

For example, a single wealthy Aristocrat in an Oligarchy will provide hundreds or even thousands times the political strength of a poor laborer. The total Political Strength of all Pops in an Interest Group is what gives it its level of Clout - the amount of political weight it can assert on the country and the government. It’s important to note though that Pops are not unified in which Interest Groups they support - individuals within Pops are the ones who decide their Interest Group, and a single Pop can potentially have individuals supporting every Interest Group in the game (in different numbers).

Some Pops have no political strength at all, usually due to being disenfranchised under the nation’s laws (such as people of a religion or culture that is discriminated against, or women in countries that haven’t instituted women’s suffrage). These Pops are ‘outside the system’ so to speak, unable to demand reform through the regular political system of Interest Groups, and instead having to rely on other methods to put pressure on the government, but we won’t focus on those today.

Individual members of a Pop can support different Interest Groups - or stay out of politics altogether!
dd6_2.png

As mentioned above, Interest Groups have a number of ideologies which determine their views on which laws the country should or should not enact. Different Interest Groups will have different ideologies (the Landowners are significantly more conservative than the Trade Unions, for example - shocking, I know!) but these are not entirely set in stone - they can change over the course of the game and will also vary based on the current leader of the Interest Group, who comes with his or her own personal ideology and view of the world. Additionally, some Interest Groups in certain countries have unique ideologies colored by their religion and culture, such as the Confucian Scholars Interest Group in Qing China who (unsurprisingly) espouse a Confucian ideology.

Interest Groups will generally favor laws that benefit them in some way
dd6_3.png

I mentioned previously that Interest Groups have a level of Clout based on the total Political Strength of their constituent Pops. Clout is calculated by comparing their Political Strength to that of the other Interest Groups in the country - if all the Interest Groups in Belgium put together have 100k Political Strength and the Landowners have 30k, they correspondingly get 30% of the Clout in Belgium. The Interest Group’s Clout will determine their classification - Powerful, Influential or Marginalized.

Interest Groups also have a level of Approval, which is based on factors such as how much they approve of the country’s laws, whether they are in government or in opposition, and how many of their individual members are Loyalists or Radicals (more on those in a later dev diary). There are numerous other factors that can affect Approval as well, such as how you react to certain events or decisions that you take.

Together, the classification and Approval of an Interest Group determines which Traits are active for an Interest Group at any given time, and how impactful they are. There are different traits, positive and negative, with positive traits being activated when an Interest Group is happy and negative ones when they are… not so happy. If an Interest Group is Powerful, the effects of any traits they have active (good or bad) are stronger, while an Interest Group that is Marginalized cannot activate traits at all, as they are too weak to exert an effect on the whole country.

Traits are, of course, not the only way that Interest Groups can affect a country, and it’s even possible for one (or several!) angry Interest Groups to start a civil war, potentially bringing in foreign countries to support them.

Keep the aristocracy happy, and they’ll be more willing to reinvest their ‘hard-earned’ money into the country
dd6_4.png

Now, something that’s been a hotly debated topic in the community in regards to Interest Groups is Political Parties and whether they will be a part of Victoria 3 so I want to briefly touch on this. What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform. This is something that’s by no means fully nailed down at this point though, so don’t take this as a 100% firm commitment to how they would function. What I can tell you for sure is that we will come back to this particular topic later!

That’s all for today, though we’ll certainly be coming back to the subject of Interest Groups and looking at the different types you will encounter in later dev diaries. With July and summer vacations coming up, we’re going to take a short break from Development Diaries, but we’ll be back on July 22nd as Mikael returns to continue talking about politics in Victoria 3, on the subject of Laws.
 
  • 342Like
  • 122Love
  • 21
  • 8
  • 6
Reactions:
Interest Groups' relationship to whoever is 'In Government' is mentioned quite a bit, forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere but how exactly do we determine which interest groups are 'In Government'? Or is this potentially a subject of discussion if political parties come into the equation as you guys develop the game?
I don't think it's really been hashed out in any way as to how the makeup of the government is determined. They'll probably go in to detail once they figure out how/if they want to integrate political parties.

In my personal view, it'll probably end up being semi randomly chosen based on the weighted influence of any particular IG amongst the voting population, so early game it might be a combination of landowners, capitalists, aristocrats, and religious groups, and as the game goes on and education and wages rise, you'll see more trade unionists and lower class IGs supplanting them, whether through voting law changes, shifting attractions, or violent uprisings.

Maybe for hereditary absolute monarchies or similar you might be able to spend authority to pick and choose a set of mutually exclusive IGs to favor with increased access to the court, but that seems unlikely.
 
well, then, personally I don't like the idea of pop randomly decide to go against their interest.
In real life, people both individually and as sizeable slices of the mass go against their class interest all the time.
 
  • 7Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Why so many people think that are opposites IG, even the capitalist and the trade unions can share many ideologies, like protectionism or speech freedom.

The good thing of the IG is that they simulate well the difference between the same collectives in different nations.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
well, then, personally I don't like the idea of pop randomly decide to go against their interest.
Except that's what you don't seem to get. They're not going against their interest. If an individual has enough attraction to a certain interest group to join it, then by definition that new interest group is their interest. And if enough of a POP joins that new interest group to make it the prevailing interest, then that new interest group is by definition the POP's prevailing interest.

Interests, and interest groups, are not static in real life among either individuals or among groups. They change, a person or group's interests can change wildly depending on their situation. We're juggling millions on millions of preferences every minute. It's part of the complexity of what makes humans and human society what it is. The game needs to reflect this, so interests and interest groups should certainly not be static or solely determined by class or profession and should be able to dynamically change depending on the circumstance.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Interest Groups' relationship to whoever is 'In Government' is mentioned quite a bit, forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere but how exactly do we determine which interest groups are 'In Government'? Or is this potentially a subject of discussion if political parties come into the equation as you guys develop the game?
I'm pretty certain the player just picks which IGs they want in the government and that's how it's handled, at least at the moment. Once parties are added they will probably end up changing it for any countries that have them but I'm pretty sure that's how it works as it stands. Just going off what's in the "Everything we know so far" Reddit post which mentioned stuff about the player having to choose which IGs to champion by inviting them into the government. It also mentioned that the government type impacts how many IGs can be in the government with Autocracy requiring a small number to maintain legitimacy while something like a Parliamentary Republic can have a larger number of IGs in the government.

There are of course certain IGs that might need to be in government depending on the IG of the Head of State. That was mentioned in the Reddit post as well, if the Head of State champions a certain IG then in all likelihood the player would need to put them into government in order to maintain legitimacy.

They seem to be going for the philosophy of letting the player do what they want and put whatever IGs into the government they wish, with the need to pay attention to the government's legitimacy if the player doesn't want to suffer certain penalties. We don't, however, know all the details. I have a feeling in democracies there probably will be some need to have IGs in the government that represent a majority, don't know if that would be in terms of votes or Clout or what but feels like something like that would be required due to the purpose of democracy (making government more representative of and responsive to the people). That is just speculation, though, we really don't know much more than what I said previously.
 
Wow this dev diary is amazing. I have one question, however, if society becomes more conservative and so on, is it possible to introduce earlier (than in Victoria 2) authoritarian systems such as fascism? Or, in the case of an increase in the population's interest in collectivism or socialism - communism.
 
"Public Schools will provide more literacy/be more expensive but there are more side effects (like Devout attraction, IG approval, etc)"

Were public schools really superior to religious schools at the time in increasing literacy across the board? It is hard to imagine given the current state of public schools (in the US, if not other places). Is it a way of balancing out other benefits that religious schools provide to your country, or are religious schools mostly just there for political benefit if you want a more conservative/religious society?
 
  • 4
  • 3Haha
Reactions:
"Public Schools will provide more literacy/be more expensive but there are more side effects (like Devout attraction, IG approval, etc)"

Were public schools really superior to religious schools at the time in increasing literacy across the board? It is hard to imagine given the current state of public schools (in the US, if not other places). Is it a way of balancing out other benefits that religious schools provide to your country, or are religious schools mostly just there for political benefit if you want a more conservative/religious society?
The advantage of public schooling, especially compulsory public schooling, is that a wider section of the populace are able to receive an education in the first place. Religious parochial schools never did service the entirety of a nation. They have the same drawbacks as private schools, except with the added element of organized religion being in charge of it (which could be seen as either a bonus or negative depending on your priorities).
 
  • 5
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Huge respect to the talented developers for their work on this impressive game, I make these comments out of love for what's being built.

The politics design in the current state looks like a shortcut which leaves too much to the imagination.
  • No parliament seat sim at all
  • General election results buried under an abstraction (clout)
  • Random IG leaders with ideology attributes means (to some extent) random ideology
  • Too many important concepts are compacted down into IGs and hidden by abstraction
  • All of this is filed away into a side-menu because there are too many IGs to represent on the map
I am glad they are considering adding a new layer for parties. It's needed.

There's a beautifully rendered map and a decent pop voting simulation already in place.. so why not use them to display general election results in an exciting way?

Why can't we play "political conquest" across the electoral map in our own states with historically relevant and fun elements like rotten boroughs and party machines.

Why can't democratic, despotic, oligarchic, communist systems all have slightly different interpretations of the parliament sim as the legal manifestation of political power (y'know, the power that decides which laws pass)? Under one constitution you have political parties vying for a majority in a 100 seat Senate, in another you have party factions vying for influence in a 20 seat Politburo, or in a monarchy seeking appointment to positions in a small King's Cabinet. The principles are similar enough to represent using the same parliament sim with the IGs joining together into relevant legal political formations (parties, factions etc) to jostle for power and vote on laws.

That way the player can align themselves with a side or assemble a custom one from scratch to represent their agenda. The parliament sim gives you drama, goals, helps visually illustrate the effects of political shifts and also gives the player terrain to navigate and conquer.
 
  • 7Like
  • 7
Reactions:
rotten boroughs
While I can't comment on the existence of similar structures in other countries, I would like to point out that the Representation of the People Act 1832, was, in fact, passed in 1832 :)
 
Were public schools really superior to religious schools at the time in increasing literacy across the board? It is hard to imagine given the current state of public schools (in the US, if not other places). Is it a way of balancing out other benefits that religious schools provide to your country, or are religious schools mostly just there for political benefit if you want a more conservative/religious society?

I'd be very, very, very cautious drawing any conclusions about public schools in any country between 1835 and 1935, or public schools more broadly now, based on the state of public schools in any one country at any one time :). More broadly, as far as I understand it, the introduction of public schooling was an important factor in the advance of literacy and all sorts of other things that were beneficial both for individuals and the nation.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Wow this dev diary is amazing. I have one question, however, if society becomes more conservative and so on, is it possible to introduce earlier (than in Victoria 2) authoritarian systems such as fascism? Or, in the case of an increase in the population's interest in collectivism or socialism - communism.
I don't think fascism should appear earlier. High conservatism would lead to monarchy restoration in Europe (or a Napoleon-like type of thing). The only issue here, would probably what things would look like where the US is concerned. I don't think fascism is the answer to that question.

In regards, to communism, well the ideas were already around before Victoria's timeframe (e.g., some philosophers and political movements during the French Revolution) or early within the timeframe (e.g., Spring of Nations 1848 or the Canuts revolts in Lyon starting from 1831). So there is not really a problem there. The only issue is some people conflating communism and soviet Russia (e.g., a successful communist revolution in France or Germany would have led to a very different political regime),
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
View attachment 735824

Hello once again and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Where previous dev diaries have been focusing on the economy, we’re now going to switch gears to another core pillar of the Victoria series - internal politics! More specifically, we’re going to be talking about Interest Groups, which form the nucleus of Victoria 3’s political gameplay.

What then, are Interest Groups? Fundamentally, an Interest Group is a collection of pops that espouse certain political views and want to change the country to be more in line with those views. Interest Groups are drawn from a number of different templates, but will vary in their exact views from country to country, based on factors such as the local religion, which social movements have appeared in the country or the personal views of their leader.

The Landowners is an Interest Group dominated by the Aristocracy and tends to be firmly in the conservative side of politics
View attachment 735844


As mentioned, Interest Groups are fundamentally made up of Pops - all individuals in all Pops are either members of an Interest Group or Politically Inactive, with the ratio in each based on factors such as Profession, Wealth, Literacy etc. Individuals inside Pops contribute Political Strength to their Interest Group of choice, with the amount they contribute again dependent on multiple factors, the main ones being their material Wealth and the status (and/or votes!) they are offered under the nation’s power structure.

For example, a single wealthy Aristocrat in an Oligarchy will provide hundreds or even thousands times the political strength of a poor laborer. The total Political Strength of all Pops in an Interest Group is what gives it its level of Clout - the amount of political weight it can assert on the country and the government. It’s important to note though that Pops are not unified in which Interest Groups they support - individuals within Pops are the ones who decide their Interest Group, and a single Pop can potentially have individuals supporting every Interest Group in the game (in different numbers).

Some Pops have no political strength at all, usually due to being disenfranchised under the nation’s laws (such as people of a religion or culture that is discriminated against, or women in countries that haven’t instituted women’s suffrage). These Pops are ‘outside the system’ so to speak, unable to demand reform through the regular political system of Interest Groups, and instead having to rely on other methods to put pressure on the government, but we won’t focus on those today.

Individual members of a Pop can support different Interest Groups - or stay out of politics altogether!
View attachment 735822

As mentioned above, Interest Groups have a number of ideologies which determine their views on which laws the country should or should not enact. Different Interest Groups will have different ideologies (the Landowners are significantly more conservative than the Trade Unions, for example - shocking, I know!) but these are not entirely set in stone - they can change over the course of the game and will also vary based on the current leader of the Interest Group, who comes with his or her own personal ideology and view of the world. Additionally, some Interest Groups in certain countries have unique ideologies colored by their religion and culture, such as the Confucian Scholars Interest Group in Qing China who (unsurprisingly) espouse a Confucian ideology.

Interest Groups will generally favor laws that benefit them in some way
View attachment 735821

I mentioned previously that Interest Groups have a level of Clout based on the total Political Strength of their constituent Pops. Clout is calculated by comparing their Political Strength to that of the other Interest Groups in the country - if all the Interest Groups in Belgium put together have 100k Political Strength and the Landowners have 30k, they correspondingly get 30% of the Clout in Belgium. The Interest Group’s Clout will determine their classification - Powerful, Influential or Marginalized.

Interest Groups also have a level of Approval, which is based on factors such as how much they approve of the country’s laws, whether they are in government or in opposition, and how many of their individual members are Loyalists or Radicals (more on those in a later dev diary). There are numerous other factors that can affect Approval as well, such as how you react to certain events or decisions that you take.

Together, the classification and Approval of an Interest Group determines which Traits are active for an Interest Group at any given time, and how impactful they are. There are different traits, positive and negative, with positive traits being activated when an Interest Group is happy and negative ones when they are… not so happy. If an Interest Group is Powerful, the effects of any traits they have active (good or bad) are stronger, while an Interest Group that is Marginalized cannot activate traits at all, as they are too weak to exert an effect on the whole country.

Traits are, of course, not the only way that Interest Groups can affect a country, and it’s even possible for one (or several!) angry Interest Groups to start a civil war, potentially bringing in foreign countries to support them.

Keep the aristocracy happy, and they’ll be more willing to reinvest their ‘hard-earned’ money into the country
View attachment 735820

Now, something that’s been a hotly debated topic in the community in regards to Interest Groups is Political Parties and whether they will be a part of Victoria 3 so I want to briefly touch on this. What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform. This is something that’s by no means fully nailed down at this point though, so don’t take this as a 100% firm commitment to how they would function. What I can tell you for sure is that we will come back to this particular topic later!

That’s all for today, though we’ll certainly be coming back to the subject of Interest Groups and looking at the different types you will encounter in later dev diaries. With July and summer vacations coming up, we’re going to take a short break from Development Diaries, but we’ll be back on July 22nd as Mikael returns to continue talking about politics in Victoria 3, on the subject of Laws.
Will we be able to arrange marriages and manage a dynasty like in ck3?
 
  • 6
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Will we be able to arrange marriages and manage a dynasty like in ck3?
No idea why you're getting downvoted instead of getting an answer. But as far as we know we won't.
There will be rulers, but they will probably play a minor role. Political marriages might still happen for a diplomacy boost (maybe once per lifetime or so). But anything beyond that is really unlikely.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
No idea why you're getting downvoted instead of getting an answer. But as far as we know we won't.
There will be rulers, but they will probably play a minor role. Political marriages might still happen for a diplomacy boost (maybe once per lifetime or so). But anything beyond that is really unlikely.
It’s strange that people dislike dynasty management in a game called Victoria 3 no one expects it to be on the level of ck3 ofc but it’d be fun to be able to cause a ww1 family feud thing.
 
  • 3
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
It’s strange that people dislike dynasty management in a game called Victoria 3 no one expects it to be on the level of ck3 ofc but it’d be fun to be able to cause a ww1 family feud thing.
Well, at least Imperator's character system fell completely fall for me. Mostly because I was often playing as Republics where the head honcho was changing every three moments so I did not care about the leader's character at all, only their traits. I would greatly prefer there not being dynastic management compared to having lackluster system that is taking developer and player time.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
It’s strange that people dislike dynasty management in a game called Victoria 3 no one expects it to be on the level of ck3 ofc but it’d be fun to be able to cause a ww1 family feud thing.
I hope not. I don't like to spend too much time thinking about leaders in a vicky game.

Based on the dev diaries leaders in vicky 3 function have the same level of function and complexity as leaders in stellaris. Which is good to me.
 
  • 1
Reactions: