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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

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Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
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By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
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As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
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If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
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If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
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Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
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That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
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@lachek

Could you confirm whether the goods shortages will actually prevent training of units or building of factories or will it only increase the cost to do so as a function of demand versus supply?
If demand merely exceeds supply, but not by so much a shortage is indicated, the price will increase until it's prohibitively expensive. But goods shortages, which kick in when demand outstrips supply by a good margin, will drastically slow down the efficiency of all buildings - military, industry, construction, etc. This affects all functions of buildings: goods production, construction speed, military effectiveness.
 
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As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand.
This sounds like it means when supply and demand of a good are in equilibrium the price will drift towards the base price. I hope this isn't the case and that prices will not change when in equilibrium. If they did then it seems like equilibrium would never truly occur outside the base price since once it had the price would start shifting causing further shifts in supply and demand.
 
I really hope you'll reconsider this decision, even if it would require a lot of extra work. Being unable to stockpile military goods in anticipation of war certainly takes away from the "realism", especially in MP.
Honestly I’m a bit torn on this topic, I feel like stockpiles were hugely important enough to be added and can create a lot of strategic opportunity for the player, but I also like the gameplay changes that not including stockpiles bring. It’s easy, simple, and brainless to stockpile a million guns over the course of 10 years and then destroy your biggest rival. It takes 0 effort and is an obvious choice to make. On the flip side, no stockpiles means you must carefully fine toon your industry to be able to make your pops happy and maintain an efficient military. It’s a much more difficult, interesting, and unclear choice than just pressing “stockpile guns”. Crafting and tailoring your industry is what this game is about, so I’m going to stay on the fence until we see how armies function, get supplied, mobilize and such.
 
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I really hope you'll reconsider this decision, even if it would require a lot of extra work. Being unable to stockpile military goods in anticipation of war certainly takes away from the "realism", especially in MP.
Well, nothing is impossible. But military stockpiles would insert a bit of inertia into the military system, which means that the economic aspect of warfare become relatively less important. Since your gold reserve already effectively acts as a stockpile, having military equipment stockpiles would mean two buffers would have to be depleted before the country runs into any kind of trouble. So from a design perspective it doesn't make a whole lot of sense given how the rest of the economic and military systems work. Hopefully the reasons will become clearer as we continue releasing more information!
 
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If demand merely exceeds supply, but not by so much a shortage is indicated, the price will increase until it's prohibitively expensive. But goods shortages, which kick in when demand outstrips supply by a good margin, will drastically slow down the efficiency of all buildings - military, industry, construction, etc. This affects all functions of buildings: goods production, construction speed, military effectiveness.
Wait… is military supply modeled as their buildings? Conscription camps I think they are called? So if the building has 100% input, it’s output is the army is 100% supplied and effective? Am I miss understanding this?
 
Honestly I’m a bit torn on this topic, I feel like stockpiles were hugely important enough to be added and can create a lot of strategic opportunity for the player, but I also like the gameplay changes that not including stockpiles bring. It’s easy, simple, and brainless to stockpile a million guns over the course of 10 years and then destroy your biggest rival. It takes 0 effort and is an obvious choice to make. On the flip side, no stockpiles means you must carefully fine toon your industry to be able to make your pops happy and maintain an efficient military. It’s a much more difficult, interesting, and unclear choice than just pressing “stockpile guns”. Crafting and tailoring your industry is what this game is about, so I’m going to stay on the fence until we see how armies function, get supplied, mobilize and such.
yeah a basic stockpile system basically makes it HOI and I don't want that in a game where it takes place over such a long time period
 
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Honestly I’m a bit torn on this topic, I feel like stockpiles were hugely important enough to be added and can create a lot of strategic opportunity for the player, but I also like the gameplay changes that not including stockpiles bring. It’s easy, simple, and brainless to stockpile a million guns over the course of 10 years and then destroy your biggest rival. It takes 0 effort and is an obvious choice to make. On the flip side, no stockpiles means you must carefully fine toon your industry to be able to make your pops happy and maintain an efficient military. It’s a much more difficult, interesting, and unclear choice than just pressing “stockpile guns”. Crafting and tailoring your industry is what this game is about, so I’m going to stay on the fence until we see how armies function, get supplied, mobilize and such.
Stockpiling also had issues that once stored a gun produced in 1840 was as good as a gun produced in 1930. Deterioration and obsoletion would have to be modelled for stockpiling to really work well.

 
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Well, nothing is impossible. But military stockpiles would insert a bit of inertia into the military system, which means that the economic aspect of warfare become relatively less important. Since your gold reserve already effectively acts as a stockpile, having military equipment stockpiles would mean two buffers would have to be depleted before the country runs into any kind of trouble. So from a design perspective it doesn't make a whole lot of sense given how the rest of the economic and military systems work. Hopefully the reasons will become clearer as we continue releasing more information!
I'm glad the priority is being put on making Victoria 3 an economics focused game first and foremost instead of merely tacking on an economic system onto just another wargame.
 
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This sounds like it means when supply and demand of a good are in equilibrium the price will drift towards the base price. I hope this isn't the case and that prices will not change when in equilibrium. If they did then it seems like equilibrium would never truly occur outside the base price since once it had the price would start shifting causing further shifts in supply and demand.
Given a certain amount of production, consumption, market access, etc etc a particular price will be computed, which does not change while conditions remain the same. Prices don't "drift", they are computed to an ideal value. This behavior is crucial to achieve the level of connection between cause and effect we were aiming for. There are plenty of other aspects that drift in response to prices, but prices themselves do not.
 
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Add me to the list of those who are not quite sure about the utility of treaty ports if they belong in someone else's market. Can a territory trade goods with any state that is within either its country, market, or both? If not, is the main advantage that you can use your (presumably) higher tech and efficiency to dominate an inefficient market, but only with the goods produced in the treaty port? Maybe treaty ports also give extra import/export capacity between the two markets; I suppose we'll have to wait until that dev diary...
I think the point is to simulate how many powers were able to make money by selling their excess goods to the Chinese market and buy resources cheaply from them. Presumably the ports count as having access to goods from your market, just as multiple countries can be in one market treaty ports allow you to sell a limited volume of your own goods in another market. I doubt Paradox would make TP's an actual mechanic if you couldn't use them like the real world industrial powers did.
 
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It sounds like the introduction of production methods would also provide an extra lever for the player to smooth over military good demand spikes during war. As long as it's possible to move factories back and forth between civilian and military uses quickly, a country can ensure good supply without utterly destroying the national treasury or having to maintain a massive military supply base at all times. And you still have to pay the price during wartime by forgoing the civilian goods those factories would have produced.
 
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I'd like to chime in here and second all of the above requests for a future clarification on money supply (perhaps in the form of its own dev diary or a flowchart with sources, sinks, buildings, pops, etc.). I hope that the sources and sinks for money make sense, and that money is otherwise in a fairly closed system (changing hands between the agents within the economy).

Separate from that, I now have to ask, with regard to military stockpiles: does unit recruitment still cost a specific amount of goods to accomplish? For example, if I attempt to recruit 500 "tank brigades" (or whatever the equivalent will be) the year after tanks are unlocked, will I still have to wait to be able to buy all the necessary tanks before the recruitment can take place? If not, and the recruitment will go ahead anyway, will the tank brigades have a few weeks of full operational potential before they begin to become worthless due to lack of tank upkeep? (The problem with this obviously being that this would them constitute a pretty severe exploit whereby you could quickly destroy an enemy country without the industry having actually built tanks).

Thanks!
 
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Question: Have you solved the issue of China either westernizing/modernizing or entering a sphere of influence (or market in 3's case) causing a massive economic crash because of the global market being flooded with cheap Chinese goods? I've heard that was an issue in Vicky 2.
 
Given a certain amount of production, consumption, market access, etc etc a particular price will be computed, which does not change while conditions remain the same. Prices don't "drift", they are computed to an ideal value. This behavior is crucial to achieve the level of connection between cause and effect we were aiming for. There are plenty of other aspects that drift in response to prices, but prices themselves do not.
Thanks for the response! Just to make sure I understand, this means when there is a certain supply and demand that the price will be calculated and remain at that price as long as supply and demand remain the same?
 
I am not ditching supply and demand. What I would like to see is less ideal models and more real interlinked mechanics.

This is not a defense of money supply for its sake. It is about introducing concepts that help the game being more than a glorified chicago school simulator.
Hard base prices go against Chicago school ( so does successful long-term planning as well though lol ). I'd say considering the focus is on whole economy sectors as the smallest industrial unit there are likely less market-inefficiencies to be observed, but whole sector focus strives away from Chicago school doesn't it.

So far I think the system could feel very alive. More interdepencies obviously add more immersion/life to the game. But they should be added on top of the model, as a proper ( and by this I mean working and reacting price system ) is a great basis, especially for mods to come.

( I get your point though as system-inherent even negotation power between buyer and seller cuts out cartel-structures, -polies and -psonies etc. )
 
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If demand merely exceeds supply, but not by so much a shortage is indicated, the price will increase until it's prohibitively expensive. But goods shortages, which kick in when demand outstrips supply by a good margin, will drastically slow down the efficiency of all buildings - military, industry, construction, etc. This affects all functions of buildings: goods production, construction speed, military effectiveness.
Yes I understand that it affects the effectiveness of the buildings but are you still able to build factories when you lack the necessary machine parts? Or recruit artllery when there aren't enough of them in the markets?
 
Question: Have you solved the issue of China either westernizing/modernizing or entering a sphere of influence (or market in 3's case) causing a massive economic crash because of the global market being flooded with cheap Chinese goods? I've heard that was an issue in Vicky 2.
there is no global market in the first place so I don't see why the problem even would still be there to be fixed. that seems pretty straightforward...
 
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Well, nothing is impossible. But military stockpiles would insert a bit of inertia into the military system, which means that the economic aspect of warfare become relatively less important. Since your gold reserve already effectively acts as a stockpile, having military equipment stockpiles would mean two buffers would have to be depleted before the country runs into any kind of trouble. So from a design perspective it doesn't make a whole lot of sense given how the rest of the economic and military systems work. Hopefully the reasons will become clearer as we continue releasing more information!
Will there be a factory conversion system similar to Hoi?