Greetings, fellow gamers! Today's Horse Lords dev diary is about Tributary states, Succession in Nomad realms and Dynamic Mercenaries... but let us start with Tributary states!

The Crusader Kings vassalage system has served us fairly well, but in our design discussions, we often return to the problem of "degree"; that is, what are the terms of the contract, exactly? How tight should the contract be in non-Feudal realms, etc. Various improvements have been suggested, such as a "vassalage strength" value (a bit similar to Crown Authority, but for each vassal.) However, most of these ideas stumble on their complexity and the required amount of micro-management. When we were talking about the Nomads of the steppes, though, we really needed a looser type of subordination than outright vassalage. That is why we decided to introduce the concept of Tributaries (which we originally conceived of as a Nomad-only power, but soon chose to make available to all rulers as long as you have the expansion.)

In Horse Lords, there are two new Casus Bellis related to Tributaries; "Make Tributary" and "Free Tributary" (doing exactly what they sound like.) On the map, the names of Tributary states are no longer shown, though they retain their own colors in the Realms map mode. Tributaries pay a monthly tax to their suzerain and cannot refuse the suzerain's call to wars. However, the suzerain is also expected to protect their tributaries. Apart from this, tributaries are still autonomous. A tributary can only have one suzerain (though the suzerain can be a regular vassal of another ruler's.) The tributary status ends on the death of either ruler, and tributaries can declare wars to free themselves, of course...

Now, let us return to the steppes and talk a bit about their unique form of succession... In reality, this was a complex matter that could be represented in many different ways, but since we already have various elective forms of succession, we decided to make it a bit less direct and more distinct (and no, it is not the horrible Ultimogeniture.) In short, among Nomads, the most prestigious son or brother inherits. Minors can inherit Clan rule, but not the tribal Khaganate. Prestige, you say? But isn't that a bit boring? Yes, the player should get some control over the choice of heir. That's why we are introducing the concept of Dynamic Mercenaries.

What you do, as a Nomad ruler, is send out your most promising sons and brothers to prove their mettle in the wide world. They will then take some of your Manpower and appear as a Mercenary Band, available for hire by rulers in the general region. As they earn money, the size of their regiment will increase. There are various new events for them as they experience adventures in the court of their employer, on distant battlefields, etc. You will receive notifications about the more significant escapades, and if you happen to be their employer, you are also likely to get some fascinating interactions. In general, dynamic mercenaries tend to increase their skills and gain Prestige, but it is, of course, also a dangerous life... The idea is to foster a strong heir by letting them prove their worth and gain enough Prestige to succeed you.

The system with dynamic mercenaries is currently locked to Nomads only, but it is very easy to mod and we are likely to expand on it in future expansions. That's all for now folks. Next week; the Silk Road and Raiding Adventurers!

 

[siempie78]

Where do you see that? That's his brother in the screenshot.

Damn. My bad.

 

[LACKADAISICAL]

It'd be cool if mercenary companies could convert to the religion of their employer, to simulate the way the Turks converted to Islam historically.

 

[Dakilla TM]

Those lovely portraits! Even the child portraits got an update!

 

[nizarus]

It'd be cool if mercenary companies could convert to the religion of their employer, to simulate the way the Turks converted to Islam historically.

Or to the culture of their employer?

 

[nizarus]

The mercenary are another reason to add china. The Chinese empire relied on Mercenaries esp. during the tang dynasty. An Lushan was a mercenary who rebelled in 755 to mark the end of the empire of the tangs.

 

[nizarus]

You may add the empire of Northern china. It follows the banner system but with an imperial government. viceroyalties and all but also the khan title which grants power over the tribes that live within your boarders.

 

[olupien]

Sounds good - a question though - Do you have to declare war for someone to become tributary, or can you also ask them "politely" like when asking someone to become your vassal?

It seems as a loot of work to first conquer, and then soon after letting them all go when your ruler dies.
Could there not be a chance of the tributaries continuing their tributary with the new ruler? If it works best for them that way and they like him, instead of standing alone out there on the steppes…?

EDIT- Why is the Dynamic Mercenary thing not also available for Pagans for example? Would fit great I think, as they also value prestige a lot in their life….

I believe you mean tribal governments? (When you referred to Pagans?) You could be steppe government type and be pagan...such as norse or suebi culture or the hellenic pagan faith and still have a feudal or steppe government I am pretty certain from what they have revealed so far.

 

[TMSaxon]

That much is true. Its just sad that I have to use cheats to end the tribal government ASAP to fix this particular problem when playing as a norse ruler(which as far as I never were not Agnatic Only, but I could be mistaken). Which sucks because I genuinely enjoy playing tribal for a bit, but absolutely -loathe- being locked into Agnatic with zero options to change it without cheating and switching to feudalism.

To the best of my knowledge, there was never a female ruling Norse chief (or Jarl, or Queen, or insert title here), in terms that the game attempts to portray anyway. That is to say, whilst females could hold lands, it was exceptionally rare, and usually her husband or eldest son truly managed said land. Certainly none of them seems to have held titles, and they were also barred from the Thing and Althing. Added on, women were not much better in Norse cultures than in most of the rest of Europe in terms of rights and abilities to move within the system. Also to be kept in mind is the naming and dynastic customs amongst the Norse- much like the Anglo Saxons, names tended to both repeat and be alliterative within dynasties- but only through the paternal line. I do not know of any that claimed descent or the right to rule solely through the matrilineal line. It is only after what the game would consider the "feudalisation" of Scandinavia that we start to see what could be female line claimants openly claiming in right of descent from the female, and even so there are to the best of my knowledge no female rulers of any of the major Scandinavian kingdoms until after the last playable start date.
So, for the Norse, it makes sense to be locked into Agnatic, at least for the game to attempt to simulate what was occurring, namely that female claimants just were not a thing pre "feudalisation".

 

[TheDungen]

The mercenary are another reason to add china. The Chinese empire relied on Mercenaries esp. during the tang dynasty. An Lushan was a mercenary who rebelled in 755 to mark the end of the empire of the tangs.

Most empires did a phase of using foreign fighters, it never worked for anyone, except the mongolians.

Jokes aside I'm getting a feeling we'll be getting china and some kind of imperial goverment type in a future dlc.

 

[nizarus]

Most empires did a phase of using foreign fighters, it never worked for anyone, except the mongolians.

Jokes aside I'm getting a feeling we'll be getting china and some kind of imperial goverment type in a future dlc.

Would be nice. Well, I believe it did not work for anyone except the foreign fighters. Salahuddine, The Saljuks, the Mumlukes, took over from their employers. If you ever play as the eastern roman empire or Byzentine empire, you can find the imperial government I am talking about.

 

[alfian]

MAGYARS

Need western as base, and mix with cuman pack. My speculation saying Magyars is a blend of Finno-Ugric and Turks.

Additional: New Mongol portraits is needed (free).

 

[superkamiguru]

Does this mean that mercenary titles can be inherited and become your own title technically? And would that mean you would have a group of warriors that you could call upon freely? I wonder how technology would work with the mercenary bands as well. What prevents the AI from spamming mercenary bands? How are they going to be priced and will the AI suffer for that? This has great potential to make investments in your dynasty, but I'm worried About the 1:1 relationships with how much mercenaries cost vs how much you would earn with prestige. If there is a combination of actions that make players too powerful please keep an eye on it, and no, being adept about building forts as defense sounds repetitive and not as fun. Consider that maybe mercenaries are hired with prestige and gold, now that prestige is tied into succession.

 

[Carmilla]

To the best of my knowledge, there was never a female ruling Norse chief (or Jarl, or Queen, or insert title here), in terms that the game attempts to portray anyway. That is to say, whilst females could hold lands, it was exceptionally rare, and usually her husband or eldest son truly managed said land. Certainly none of them seems to have held titles, and they were also barred from the Thing and Althing. Added on, women were not much better in Norse cultures than in most of the rest of Europe in terms of rights and abilities to move within the system. Also to be kept in mind is the naming and dynastic customs amongst the Norse- much like the Anglo Saxons, names tended to both repeat and be alliterative within dynasties- but only through the paternal line. I do not know of any that claimed descent or the right to rule solely through the matrilineal line. It is only after what the game would consider the "feudalisation" of Scandinavia that we start to see what could be female line claimants openly claiming in right of descent from the female, and even so there are to the best of my knowledge no female rulers of any of the major Scandinavian kingdoms until after the last playable start date.
So, for the Norse, it makes sense to be locked into Agnatic, at least for the game to attempt to simulate what was occurring, namely that female claimants just were not a thing pre "feudalisation".

By law they could hold land and that should be reflected ingame. That they never managed to get up to the level of rulers as far as we know is irrelevant. This is a game and since the possibility was there then no matter how slim it might've been, it should be possible to pull off without cheating like crazy.

And I thought dynasties was something that first came about much later in the sense that the game portrays it so I don't see how that affects this.

This is also before pointing out that locking something into Agnatic Only makes it bland, boring, unchallenging and leaves practically zero room for development in this particular aspect in addition to being farsical whenever I play religions and cultures that both allow changing this on their own. Its pretty much arbitrary and unfun(in my opinion). Its why my scandinavian games these days don't last long as I can't stand dealing with this for long enough despite enjoying the tribal gameplay in general unless I resort to cheats. I have the same issue with muslims and tengri mongols.

So no it does not make sense. I play this game to change history so arbitrarily preventing me from doing it and making it impossible to have societal changes is not a good thing.

 

[Zolotaya]

... Its why my scandinavian games these days don't last long as I can't stand dealing with this for long enough despite enjoying the tribal gameplay in general unless I resort to cheats.

Scandinavian campaigns are also my least played - for the reasons you stated and also raiding is too micro-orientated to be fun. Pdox could have made the raiding much more in-depth and mature (without being micro-management heavy).

 

[Carmilla]

Scandinavian campaigns are also my least played - for the reasons you stated and also raiding is too micro-orientated to be fun. Pdox could have made the raiding much more in-depth and mature (without being micro-management heavy).

Since I enjoy playing as female rulers as much as possible due to the deck being stacked so massively against them providing much more interesting scenarios, I usually end up not doing a lot of raiding since the events don't fire for them and they can't lead armies in the first place anyway.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I assume one can still hand honorary titles to daughters for prestige gain. If they want female nomad rulers.

 

[Irockz]

Will tributaries become Client States when in an empire?

 

[theKing1988]

Will tributaries become Client States when in an empire?

I assume they will function exactly the same way no matter if you hold a Kingdom or an Empire. The Nomadic title shown in the screenie that holds a tributary is an Empire-level title

 

[riadach]

I wonder will there be a cb for tributary status and how you might acquire it.

Someone suggesting that fighting for someone's claim on a foreign throne should make them your tributary which I agree with.

Could tributaries be used to represent the abbasids power in the 8th century?

 

[Carmilla]

I hope they put in a way to turn others into tributaries via peaceful means and allow it as an option to end a war rather than force us to go to war over it each time.