This couldn't be better. The stronger the Axis the better the AAR will get.
It would be really bad if after all the buildup the 1st line would be able to stop them.
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This couldn't be better. The stronger the Axis the better the AAR will get.
It would be really bad if after all the buildup the 1st line would be able to stop them.
Middelkerke is right - I want to set this up for a real Great Patriotic War, I'm not going to do dumb and make it easy, but I'd be shocked and a bit disapointed, if my front line tar-baby defense blocked their offensive and all I was left was the slow grind to Berlin.
Other difficulty is that leadership on 'influencing' is not keeping the NKVD spies in place (& I'm getting some real pay-offs for this now, lots of intelligence esp on German airforce dispositions and the low key, Mexican gambit), nor research, nor building up my officer pool - and there are a *lot* of rifle divisions on their way to build up the more exposed areas.
I've actually had to start influencing Communist China as Germany was wooing them and they were off pretty fast to the axis. I can't do a military solution as I did in Rumania so I've got to stop this by the same means. Its actually quite a cute move by the German AI, if it works they get the means to cause chaos in my Far East (& in HOI3 any lost population centre at the least knocks another hole in your leadership), or at least makes me respond in an area where my preference is to leave very well alone.
Although the Germans look powerful, they must have spent a shed load of IC on their navy - which is more or less utterly useless against me.
Trud 2 July 1941
Germans are whimps?
Our journalists have been shown military briefings that imply the German assault into Scotland has been severly hampered by their inability to cope with the dreaded 'midge' or the implications of 'haggis'. Soviet scientists are developing these weapons so that we too can use them if needed - although the 'Haggis' in particular may breach numerous international treaties.
Germans are whimps?
Our journalists have been shown military briefings that imply the German assault into Scotland has been severly hampered by their inability to cope with the dreaded 'midge' or the implications of 'haggis'. Soviet scientists are developing these weapons so that we too can use them if needed - although the 'Haggis' in particular may breach numerous international treaties.
Soviet Defense Lines July 1941
The next set of shots show the fall out of a rather busy May-June, the only Military District on my western borders that has not changes was Zhukov's.
First up, the 5th (?) Japanese counterattack into Manchuria, this time with what looks like 3 armoured divisions - also start to see the gains of my improved radar station at Vladivostock:
Arctic Front - this is shared between the Archangelsk Front and the Leningrad District (that has south Finland to Turku). In the north 33A is now essentially defensive (guard Murmansk and Petsamo), the other 2 are probably too weak for a large attack into Sweden/Norway but should be able to guard the current front and to grab some terrain for exploitation later. They are mostly hidden, 1 province back from the border with Sweden. Lots of junk is guarding resources etc in Central Finland and to squash any partisans.
Kirponos' front now looks more healthy - he has no more troops but has, especially in the critical Lvov sector, been able to build a defense line of each army having a rifle division on the border, a second line of 2 divisions and ideally the 4th rifle division behind that. Also a new 4th Tank is being formed up in his sector and the 2 Shock Armies are closer to hand.
Odessa District is still deploying to new positions but as far as I'm concerned the Hungarians are on their own in the West, but if its safe 37A will help hold Budapest. The armies are divided into a Hungarian Front (16, 37, 15A) and a Rumanian Front (19, 20, 17A). 20A is mostly mtn divs. The block I forgot to label is a 4 div (1 LArm, 2 Mot, 1 Cav) 4 Mech Army.
I don't think the Germans have access via Croatia, but am not at all tempted to even think of temporarily exploiting that. A measure of my concerns at encirclement here is that I'm building 2 Transport units to add to the Black Sea Fleet as well as some extra convoys. If I need to, I can pull some formations out by sea.
Hungarian Front will get a couple more Inf Armies in the near future as will Kirponos' main lines.
The next set of shots show the fall out of a rather busy May-June, the only Military District on my western borders that has not changes was Zhukov's.
First up, the 5th (?) Japanese counterattack into Manchuria, this time with what looks like 3 armoured divisions - also start to see the gains of my improved radar station at Vladivostock:
Arctic Front - this is shared between the Archangelsk Front and the Leningrad District (that has south Finland to Turku). In the north 33A is now essentially defensive (guard Murmansk and Petsamo), the other 2 are probably too weak for a large attack into Sweden/Norway but should be able to guard the current front and to grab some terrain for exploitation later. They are mostly hidden, 1 province back from the border with Sweden. Lots of junk is guarding resources etc in Central Finland and to squash any partisans.
Kirponos' front now looks more healthy - he has no more troops but has, especially in the critical Lvov sector, been able to build a defense line of each army having a rifle division on the border, a second line of 2 divisions and ideally the 4th rifle division behind that. Also a new 4th Tank is being formed up in his sector and the 2 Shock Armies are closer to hand.
Odessa District is still deploying to new positions but as far as I'm concerned the Hungarians are on their own in the West, but if its safe 37A will help hold Budapest. The armies are divided into a Hungarian Front (16, 37, 15A) and a Rumanian Front (19, 20, 17A). 20A is mostly mtn divs. The block I forgot to label is a 4 div (1 LArm, 2 Mot, 1 Cav) 4 Mech Army.
I don't think the Germans have access via Croatia, but am not at all tempted to even think of temporarily exploiting that. A measure of my concerns at encirclement here is that I'm building 2 Transport units to add to the Black Sea Fleet as well as some extra convoys. If I need to, I can pull some formations out by sea.
Hungarian Front will get a couple more Inf Armies in the near future as will Kirponos' main lines.
Review of recent Soviet military actions
This is an attempt to think through and explain (at least to my satisfaction) the results of 8 weeks combat, albeit none of it against an opponent who had any strategic or operational flexibility.
On the defence:
My instinct is I had to beat a unit twice for it to become essentially useless, especially for the well mobilised and deployed Rumanian army. First battle was long, even if I had odds of 3:1, second was quicker and after that I started to overun some units, and create pockets, final combats were often very brief.
So turning this around, my front line should hold the Germans a couple of days, those rifle divisions can then fall back to (& more importantly, through), a second defensive echelon. So the Germans have to repeat their combat against fresh formations and I have no immediate fear of being overrun.
Second, units with hard attack/defense are good in essentially infantry fights, they really do just last longer and suffer less damage.
On the Shock Army:
For structured offensives this formation is great. The 3 SA that did most of the fighting in Rumania had 3 rifle divs with rocket brigades, 1 with an AC brigade and 1 with an engineer brigade. So for the river crossing battles I tended to use 2 with rockets and the engineers, the other 2 could then move up as the defense fell back and start a second echelon attack immediately.
On the Mech Army:
Less sure about this one. Its easy to see what is not. Its not a breakthrough formation and there are several reasons for this. One is that although LArm brigades do not take much damage from Inf (at least at this stage of the war), they don't hand out much either. I used one of my Tank Divisions (2 med arm, 1 mot, 1 SPA) in the Hungarian phase and that squashed infantry in the open. Another problem is the Cav-AC combo. Its fast, when I got it into 'the green fields beyond' it really disrupted a defense line but one such formation was pinned down for a week in a struggle with a HQ brigade. I'm now trying to improve their effectiveness by researching toughness and Soft Attack.
The final problem lies with the Motorised brigade - and this is a worry as either in their own divisions or as part of the armoured formations I've got lots of these. The equipment part is fine, as it uses Inf weaponry and some of the LArm stats (another reason to keep up LArm research) but they are low on org and morale. The problem is these things come off the 'superior firepower' tech tree that I've ignored. Whilst I'm currently well off for leadership, I'm going to grab some of these, but they are still weak in terms of performance.
So operationally, these are not breakthrough formations, I'm not even sure they are 2nd echelon, but once the front is open the component parts are dangerous. It was a Cav Div, that kept on edging past any combat, that ended up taking Budapest. But the Mot Inf, unless I really find a way to improve their org/morale are actually quite weak despite impressive equipment.
I'm developing the tech for Mech Inf at the moment, but rather loath to start trying to produce much of that so early on.
Keeping up an offensive
2 things worked for me here - low delays (48 hours) and having researched the techs that give you quicker speed on the offensive. It was rare to feel frustrated that I couldn't attack a desired target. Also the discipline of moving in echelon meant that quite often troops with no attack delay reached the front not long after the initial breakthrough divisions. But I had the usual supply problems, especially in Finland and Rumania.
Airpower
You really do not want to fight without aircover. Once I'd pushed deep into Rumania I was out of air support for a while, combats took a lot longer and I suffered from Rumanian airstrikes. I'm going to build up at least 1, pref 2, formations of FTR rather than INT, so as to give me longer range fighters if I need them.
AI
the disaster with the 17A at the start of 'Vlad' was my fault - I should have given the AI a route as opposed to a single deep target at Constanta. It was actually quite funny and quite realistic. Elsewhere I mixed AI and human control at the army level and it worked fine.
Diplomatic Fall out.
Early on Turkey mobilised and started off towards the Axis on the diplomatic screen. They are now sufficiently impressed by the Red Army that they are veering back to towards the Comintern. Even if they are not ready (& I guess the German AI still has a lot of troops in the UK), they should have hit me at the start of the second week of 'Bela-Kun', there were no reserves in the Lvov sector and the mechanised and shock formations were all entangled - would have been a disaster at least in S Poland, NE Hungary.
In general
Its this sort of attack that the RKKA historically excelled at. A set piece opening offensive against a static enemy, done with force and at least 2 echelons. Its actually neat to see it work so well in HOI3 (didn't really in HOI2).
So we go back to staring at the Germans on a longer front than before.
This is an attempt to think through and explain (at least to my satisfaction) the results of 8 weeks combat, albeit none of it against an opponent who had any strategic or operational flexibility.
On the defence:
My instinct is I had to beat a unit twice for it to become essentially useless, especially for the well mobilised and deployed Rumanian army. First battle was long, even if I had odds of 3:1, second was quicker and after that I started to overun some units, and create pockets, final combats were often very brief.
So turning this around, my front line should hold the Germans a couple of days, those rifle divisions can then fall back to (& more importantly, through), a second defensive echelon. So the Germans have to repeat their combat against fresh formations and I have no immediate fear of being overrun.
Second, units with hard attack/defense are good in essentially infantry fights, they really do just last longer and suffer less damage.
On the Shock Army:
For structured offensives this formation is great. The 3 SA that did most of the fighting in Rumania had 3 rifle divs with rocket brigades, 1 with an AC brigade and 1 with an engineer brigade. So for the river crossing battles I tended to use 2 with rockets and the engineers, the other 2 could then move up as the defense fell back and start a second echelon attack immediately.
On the Mech Army:
Less sure about this one. Its easy to see what is not. Its not a breakthrough formation and there are several reasons for this. One is that although LArm brigades do not take much damage from Inf (at least at this stage of the war), they don't hand out much either. I used one of my Tank Divisions (2 med arm, 1 mot, 1 SPA) in the Hungarian phase and that squashed infantry in the open. Another problem is the Cav-AC combo. Its fast, when I got it into 'the green fields beyond' it really disrupted a defense line but one such formation was pinned down for a week in a struggle with a HQ brigade. I'm now trying to improve their effectiveness by researching toughness and Soft Attack.
The final problem lies with the Motorised brigade - and this is a worry as either in their own divisions or as part of the armoured formations I've got lots of these. The equipment part is fine, as it uses Inf weaponry and some of the LArm stats (another reason to keep up LArm research) but they are low on org and morale. The problem is these things come off the 'superior firepower' tech tree that I've ignored. Whilst I'm currently well off for leadership, I'm going to grab some of these, but they are still weak in terms of performance.
So operationally, these are not breakthrough formations, I'm not even sure they are 2nd echelon, but once the front is open the component parts are dangerous. It was a Cav Div, that kept on edging past any combat, that ended up taking Budapest. But the Mot Inf, unless I really find a way to improve their org/morale are actually quite weak despite impressive equipment.
I'm developing the tech for Mech Inf at the moment, but rather loath to start trying to produce much of that so early on.
Keeping up an offensive
2 things worked for me here - low delays (48 hours) and having researched the techs that give you quicker speed on the offensive. It was rare to feel frustrated that I couldn't attack a desired target. Also the discipline of moving in echelon meant that quite often troops with no attack delay reached the front not long after the initial breakthrough divisions. But I had the usual supply problems, especially in Finland and Rumania.
Airpower
You really do not want to fight without aircover. Once I'd pushed deep into Rumania I was out of air support for a while, combats took a lot longer and I suffered from Rumanian airstrikes. I'm going to build up at least 1, pref 2, formations of FTR rather than INT, so as to give me longer range fighters if I need them.
AI
the disaster with the 17A at the start of 'Vlad' was my fault - I should have given the AI a route as opposed to a single deep target at Constanta. It was actually quite funny and quite realistic. Elsewhere I mixed AI and human control at the army level and it worked fine.
Diplomatic Fall out.
Early on Turkey mobilised and started off towards the Axis on the diplomatic screen. They are now sufficiently impressed by the Red Army that they are veering back to towards the Comintern. Even if they are not ready (& I guess the German AI still has a lot of troops in the UK), they should have hit me at the start of the second week of 'Bela-Kun', there were no reserves in the Lvov sector and the mechanised and shock formations were all entangled - would have been a disaster at least in S Poland, NE Hungary.
In general
Its this sort of attack that the RKKA historically excelled at. A set piece opening offensive against a static enemy, done with force and at least 2 echelons. Its actually neat to see it work so well in HOI3 (didn't really in HOI2).
So we go back to staring at the Germans on a longer front than before.
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*subscribing*
I've been following for a few days so I thought I'd chip and say so.
Interesting stuff to say the least, I may even get around to buying the game in the new year!
I've been following for a few days so I thought I'd chip and say so.
Interesting stuff to say the least, I may even get around to buying the game in the new year!
nice feedback on your offensive!
and it is important to remember that motorized infantry is just infantry on wheels, especially in '41. It is not a tank, just a truck. Just as Mechanized infantry is not a tank, but a slightly armoured truck. But if you can, keep developing them, I'm sure you will find a good use for them though. Can't wait to hear the feedback from the Big War.
and it is important to remember that motorized infantry is just infantry on wheels, especially in '41. It is not a tank, just a truck. Just as Mechanized infantry is not a tank, but a slightly armoured truck. But if you can, keep developing them, I'm sure you will find a good use for them though. Can't wait to hear the feedback from the Big War.
Prawnstar, welcome and thanks ... I'd say even in its current state its worth buying, just that the generally excellent military AI is rather let down by the production AI, and now, to a much lesser extent, the diplomatic AI. I've just had a corrupted game file so am tracking back to find one I can use. In doing so, its a bit of an eye opener to find out the British AI, even after the invasion of the UK, kept to its fetish for transports, as opposed to churning out ultra-cheap militia - which any human player would immediately do.
Aye, its one of the many ways this is such a good game. You can have troops who are notionally well equipped, in this case the 2 LArm techs and all their Inf techs are to date. But they are well down in terms of both morale and organisation as I've not researched the needed disciplines.
Bit of an oversight, given they are key parts of my offensive armour divisions and also are my fast reserves, but I'll do what I can to squeeze these into my research queue.
Its less 'rigged' than in HOI2. There if you did your operational techs to time, the Red Army was better than the Germans by about late 1943, but the early things that came off the Blitzkrieg doctrines far outperformed Human Wave up to about then. Now, its more implicit. I'd guess a Germany in 1936 will start with theory values in the Blitzkrieg area, will gain more help with this research as it develops and deploys pzrs and of course gets all that lovely land combat experience.
More, don't get seduced by the hardware part of the tech tree with its juicy "+2.5 Hard Attack" outcomes. Danger is you end up with fairly well equipped but operationally very fragile units - probably as good a description of the Red Army in Summer 1941 as any I could come up with!
Now, back to hunting my save files till I can find an uncorrupted one, pref, if poss after the end of 'Bela-Kun'.
Let this be a leeson to us all, you cant have enough saved game files!
Jesus saves and so should you! (hope yuo find a good one, been enjoying this....)
Jesus saves and so should you! (hope yuo find a good one, been enjoying this....)
Very nice AAR Have been enjoying this for some time! But would you mind using political mapmode? It is so much better and easier to look at. Or maybe explain what's better with the current one, just to let me know
Have been enjoying this for some time! But would you mind using political mapmode? It is so much better and easier to look at. Or maybe explain what's better with the current one, just to let me know
I don't know what strikes more fear into me - the known unholy substance that is 'haggis' or the unknown 'midge'... Fear of the known, fear of the unknown...
Anyway, I really enjoyed the last few updates, where the wheels came off and your game world went into a mad spin: Germans in London! Canadians freezing to death AWAY from their home! Exporting the Revolution to Finland, Romania and Hungary!
These developments I really like and I think it's a strength of HOI3 - the fact that things are far less 'on rails' than in previous installments.
I really look forward to the coming showdown with the Fascist Beasts.
Thanks for all the supportive words ... much appreciated, I've found a workable file (I seem to have some massive repetitions of the script 'war with ... ' in the files - not sure if thats too blame). In doing this, I've taken the liberty to 'improve' on the German positions. I don't think, unaided, 1.2 will ever see a Barbarossa, these Germans are much more interested in conquering the warm jungles of SE Asia.
Good thing is this is the save immediately after last set of screenshots, not much had happened from then to the great disaster in mid-August in any case, so I'll just let it run again.
I'd hate for Paradox to reduce this game to the something highly structured, its just if you start out a USSR GC in 1936, at some stage you really do want to be attacked by the Germans - its a bit like one of my cats who spends hours winding up the others so he gets chased.
I'll switch around the mapmodes for a change of view. Since I'm using Van Diemen's version, I missed out on the simplified view from Paradox and daren't add another mod at thi stage. I sort of like the terrain map that Paradox came up with - my feeling is that the USSR is all about the broad issues and that map indicates where the really big key bits of terrain are, rather than whether a particular province is more or less hilly.
Unfortunately neither the horrors of the Scottish diet nor our very own CAS-insect, saved Scotland from being overrun. Dunno what my Grandfather would have to say about that.
Isvestia 7 July 1941
On the nature of imperialist war:
In case anyone is still deluded that the squabble between the British and Germans is about anything but control of colonies, recent events should open their eyes. First, Germany is trying to seize British and Dutch colonies in Malaysia and Indonesia.
Second the mangy Hyena of Italian Fascism has fnally become brave enough to feast on the remains of the British Empire:
.... In the meantime in a familiar room in the Kremlin, Molotov is havng another uncomfortable meeting with the 'boss' ...
JS - you told us that your Italian contact only joined the axis for show - that all your trading was going to keep them neutral, now look at this
Molotov, as really is the wisest, keeps quiet
JS - and another thing why is Mao so popular and I'm not? No-one ever tries to influence me, he has 2 of us at it ...
reaches for his infamous folder of foreign press cuttings:
JS - look at this from the Washington Post - isn't that one of the newspapers you talk to when you're drunk and its so hard to get them to then supress the results?
Molotov still keeps quiet (this being more of a monologue)
JS - anyway, there's a load here by some bloke ---- 'Edgar Snow' ---- on the heroism of PLA formations in beating Japanese tanks in Manchuria.
JS - as an aside - why don't we get foreign press talking about our heroism, all we get is comments about 'Soviet agression' - which reminds me has Kalinin sorted out a press officer yet?
JS - just continues - anyway this bloke is utterly taken with Mao - lots of stuff on how democratic he is etc. And then he reports from Mao's HQ - where apparently "there is a substantial Soviet AND German military and technical assistance programme". He goes on to mention that we are both advising Mao, whats Mao got that I ain't?
Hitler never bothers to send us advisors, he doesn't even answer my phone calls these days.
Molotov, leaves, even he is finally getting rather worried.
On the nature of imperialist war:
In case anyone is still deluded that the squabble between the British and Germans is about anything but control of colonies, recent events should open their eyes. First, Germany is trying to seize British and Dutch colonies in Malaysia and Indonesia.
Second the mangy Hyena of Italian Fascism has fnally become brave enough to feast on the remains of the British Empire:
.... In the meantime in a familiar room in the Kremlin, Molotov is havng another uncomfortable meeting with the 'boss' ...
JS - you told us that your Italian contact only joined the axis for show - that all your trading was going to keep them neutral, now look at this
Molotov, as really is the wisest, keeps quiet
JS - and another thing why is Mao so popular and I'm not? No-one ever tries to influence me, he has 2 of us at it ...
reaches for his infamous folder of foreign press cuttings:
JS - look at this from the Washington Post - isn't that one of the newspapers you talk to when you're drunk and its so hard to get them to then supress the results?
Molotov still keeps quiet (this being more of a monologue)
JS - anyway, there's a load here by some bloke ---- 'Edgar Snow' ---- on the heroism of PLA formations in beating Japanese tanks in Manchuria.
JS - as an aside - why don't we get foreign press talking about our heroism, all we get is comments about 'Soviet agression' - which reminds me has Kalinin sorted out a press officer yet?
JS - just continues - anyway this bloke is utterly taken with Mao - lots of stuff on how democratic he is etc. And then he reports from Mao's HQ - where apparently "there is a substantial Soviet AND German military and technical assistance programme". He goes on to mention that we are both advising Mao, whats Mao got that I ain't?
Hitler never bothers to send us advisors, he doesn't even answer my phone calls these days.
Molotov, leaves, even he is finally getting rather worried.
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Isvestia 12 July 1941
It is with sadness that we report the decision of our esteemed Comrade Molotov to leave his post as Soviet Foreign Minister. He has successfully kept the USSR out of the imperialist wars, and allowed us to concentrate on peacefully building socialism. As an honest man, he will of course admit to many mistakes, but all stem from his zeal to serve the people of the Soviet Union.
He will take up his new post as Head of the Foreign Office Staff Training College for new diplomats in Kamchatka.
Maxim Litvinov is now Soviet Foreign Minister.
It is with sadness that we report the decision of our esteemed Comrade Molotov to leave his post as Soviet Foreign Minister. He has successfully kept the USSR out of the imperialist wars, and allowed us to concentrate on peacefully building socialism. As an honest man, he will of course admit to many mistakes, but all stem from his zeal to serve the people of the Soviet Union.
He will take up his new post as Head of the Foreign Office Staff Training College for new diplomats in Kamchatka.
Maxim Litvinov is now Soviet Foreign Minister.
Main Military Soviet 16 July 1941
As ever with the USSR, surface events hid more than they illuminated, and future historians have drawn particular attention to a, more than usually, secret meeting of the Main Military Soviet early on 16 July.
Some historians, less favourable to comrade Stalin's legacy, suggest that the strange time of the fateful decision (3am) was more due to a vodka fuelled session of STAVKA the previous evening, than the complexity of the decision.
It is now clear that in sacking Molotov, the Soviet leadership was in fact seeking to place the blame for their previous policy of passivity in International affairs on his shoulders.
Instead, emboldened by their hard won successes in the May and June fighting, the Soviet Union was planning to revert to the goals of 1921 - if the International Proletariat would not rebel against imperialism, the Red Army would do it for them.
Two main options, appeared to the Soviet leadership. To try and grab (& of course, liberate) territories of the fast declining British Empire, where it was felt a quick offensive in both India and Iraq would yield quick gains. The difficulty with this plan was the current deployment of the RKKA was on the Soviet-German border and the campaigns in Finland and Rumania had given the STAVKA a deep respect for the problems of fighting in logistically poor terrain.
Equally, although the Germans had not reacted to either Bela-Kun or the reduced SIBTS, it was felt to be dangerous to reduce Soviet forces on the Western border.
This then led the Soviet leadership to consider that, as their armies were arraigned to deter a German attack, why not attack on that sector themselves?
In terms of organisation, the Infantry armies in Hungary and Rumania were being built up, 4 Tank would be fully operational at the end of September and a 4th Shock Army was in production.
Thus was born the basic idea of 'Operation Zapad' (Zapad=West, as in Stalin's slogan at the start of Bagration -- "Na Zapad" - to the west).
This meant a considerable reorganisation of the STAVKA reserve to bring that close to the front. In turn, a new military organisation was created in the RKKA's Order of Battle - the concept of a 'Shock Front'. 2 were initially designated. The first consisted of 1 Shock Army, 1 Tank Army and 3 Tank Army (with its KV1 heavy tanks) and was allocated to Zhukov's Minsk District. When ready the 4th Shock Army would be added to this formation.
The 2nd Shock Front, consisted of 2 & 4 Tank Armies and 2 & 3 Shock Armies, and was allocated to Kirponos. However, 3 Shock would probably operate with the Ukrainian MD to give that formation some offensive force.
The lessons of May on concentration, echelons and reserves were to be applied in the operational planning, especially about the commitment of the Shock Fronts. Whilst the Soviet leadership expected to significantly outnumber the German formations in Poland and Slovakia, they had little doubt that the Luftwaffe would dominate the skies - at least in the early phases.
This led Soviet planners to identify mid-November as a possible start date. Zapad was envisaged as an two pronged breakthrough with the goals of pocketing many German troops on the border by joining up the offensive on a line from Krakow-Lodz-Danzig. The second phase would then see Soviet troops enter Germany proper.
As ever with the USSR, surface events hid more than they illuminated, and future historians have drawn particular attention to a, more than usually, secret meeting of the Main Military Soviet early on 16 July.
Some historians, less favourable to comrade Stalin's legacy, suggest that the strange time of the fateful decision (3am) was more due to a vodka fuelled session of STAVKA the previous evening, than the complexity of the decision.
It is now clear that in sacking Molotov, the Soviet leadership was in fact seeking to place the blame for their previous policy of passivity in International affairs on his shoulders.
Instead, emboldened by their hard won successes in the May and June fighting, the Soviet Union was planning to revert to the goals of 1921 - if the International Proletariat would not rebel against imperialism, the Red Army would do it for them.
Two main options, appeared to the Soviet leadership. To try and grab (& of course, liberate) territories of the fast declining British Empire, where it was felt a quick offensive in both India and Iraq would yield quick gains. The difficulty with this plan was the current deployment of the RKKA was on the Soviet-German border and the campaigns in Finland and Rumania had given the STAVKA a deep respect for the problems of fighting in logistically poor terrain.
Equally, although the Germans had not reacted to either Bela-Kun or the reduced SIBTS, it was felt to be dangerous to reduce Soviet forces on the Western border.
This then led the Soviet leadership to consider that, as their armies were arraigned to deter a German attack, why not attack on that sector themselves?
In terms of organisation, the Infantry armies in Hungary and Rumania were being built up, 4 Tank would be fully operational at the end of September and a 4th Shock Army was in production.
Thus was born the basic idea of 'Operation Zapad' (Zapad=West, as in Stalin's slogan at the start of Bagration -- "Na Zapad" - to the west).
This meant a considerable reorganisation of the STAVKA reserve to bring that close to the front. In turn, a new military organisation was created in the RKKA's Order of Battle - the concept of a 'Shock Front'. 2 were initially designated. The first consisted of 1 Shock Army, 1 Tank Army and 3 Tank Army (with its KV1 heavy tanks) and was allocated to Zhukov's Minsk District. When ready the 4th Shock Army would be added to this formation.
The 2nd Shock Front, consisted of 2 & 4 Tank Armies and 2 & 3 Shock Armies, and was allocated to Kirponos. However, 3 Shock would probably operate with the Ukrainian MD to give that formation some offensive force.
The lessons of May on concentration, echelons and reserves were to be applied in the operational planning, especially about the commitment of the Shock Fronts. Whilst the Soviet leadership expected to significantly outnumber the German formations in Poland and Slovakia, they had little doubt that the Luftwaffe would dominate the skies - at least in the early phases.
This led Soviet planners to identify mid-November as a possible start date. Zapad was envisaged as an two pronged breakthrough with the goals of pocketing many German troops on the border by joining up the offensive on a line from Krakow-Lodz-Danzig. The second phase would then see Soviet troops enter Germany proper.
A bold plan. If 'Zapad' launches early enough it might catch the Wehrmacht out of place and net you Poland. If the Germans attack first though, while you're reorganizing for an attack things could get ugly. Still, I think it's a risk worth taking. Onward, to the victory of socialism!
well just doing the final plans ... and the thing that strikes me is how close it is to the actual Soviet set up in 1941 - If I got hit now, my armour is in the front line, also if it goes wrong my armour is going to be encircled.
But, either because they must have build masses of ships, or the German AI just does not fancy a winter in Russia, I don't think they'll ever attack, so at least this'll get things nicely stirred up.
Soviet Planning - Na Zapad
Putting this together feels more like a putative Warsaw Pact-NATO confrontation than the opening shots of the Great Patriotic War, but there we are.
This post looks at Soviet plans in the Arctic and the Balkans, next will cover the plans for the Minsk and Kiev Districts. I've tried to indicate some of the more important cities etc.
First up, the Arctic.
Here the basic plan is my original SIBTS - which maybe I should rename CIBTI (Chekov is better than Ibsen). Main change is my build up has attracted German armour away from molesting the Canadians at Narvik, so, despite likely supply challenge, I've deployed 1 Mech Army to the sector.
Plan is simple, 33A grabs hold of the Pzrs and holds them till they run out of supply, 34A goes for Kiruna and links up with the bold Canadians, 1 Mech and 1A combine to grab a line from Lulea up to Kiruna.
Now, a shift to the South of the line to look at the Odessa District plans. This area has had a lot of reinforcement since the June battles and now sports 3 Fronts, 9 Infantry Armies and 2 Mechanised. What I've done is to pull the Mechanised armies out of the 'Central' Front as their merit is mobility not in combat. There are lots of nasty looking T-34s and IS-1s on the main front to keep the German pzrs busy (I hope).
So plan in this sector is that in the Budapest sector, Soviet troops cower behind the Hungarians!. Idea is this is a purely defensive operation for the first phase, 38A is stacked up in Budapest to stop a Hungarian collapse and shifting sides, 2 Mech Army gives some armour/mobile reserve.
The Pecs front is to extend on a hinge from Budapest into Croatia, how far and how fast depends on resistance, but I'm not expecting too much. The Rumanian Front will leave 3A as a garrison force, 20A and maybe bits of 4 Mech A will go off to Greece to bring the KKE to power, the rest will come to a halt on the same line (N Croatia) as the Pecs Front, hopefully ready for the second round which will be an assault on Vienna-Bratislava and into North Italy.
Most of the Infantry Armies are 4*Rifle Divs, 20A has Mtn Divs, and 3A has a mix of rifle and garrison divisions.
Putting this together feels more like a putative Warsaw Pact-NATO confrontation than the opening shots of the Great Patriotic War, but there we are.
This post looks at Soviet plans in the Arctic and the Balkans, next will cover the plans for the Minsk and Kiev Districts. I've tried to indicate some of the more important cities etc.
First up, the Arctic.
Here the basic plan is my original SIBTS - which maybe I should rename CIBTI (Chekov is better than Ibsen). Main change is my build up has attracted German armour away from molesting the Canadians at Narvik, so, despite likely supply challenge, I've deployed 1 Mech Army to the sector.
Plan is simple, 33A grabs hold of the Pzrs and holds them till they run out of supply, 34A goes for Kiruna and links up with the bold Canadians, 1 Mech and 1A combine to grab a line from Lulea up to Kiruna.
Now, a shift to the South of the line to look at the Odessa District plans. This area has had a lot of reinforcement since the June battles and now sports 3 Fronts, 9 Infantry Armies and 2 Mechanised. What I've done is to pull the Mechanised armies out of the 'Central' Front as their merit is mobility not in combat. There are lots of nasty looking T-34s and IS-1s on the main front to keep the German pzrs busy (I hope).
So plan in this sector is that in the Budapest sector, Soviet troops cower behind the Hungarians!. Idea is this is a purely defensive operation for the first phase, 38A is stacked up in Budapest to stop a Hungarian collapse and shifting sides, 2 Mech Army gives some armour/mobile reserve.
The Pecs front is to extend on a hinge from Budapest into Croatia, how far and how fast depends on resistance, but I'm not expecting too much. The Rumanian Front will leave 3A as a garrison force, 20A and maybe bits of 4 Mech A will go off to Greece to bring the KKE to power, the rest will come to a halt on the same line (N Croatia) as the Pecs Front, hopefully ready for the second round which will be an assault on Vienna-Bratislava and into North Italy.
Most of the Infantry Armies are 4*Rifle Divs, 20A has Mtn Divs, and 3A has a mix of rifle and garrison divisions.
Zapad: Central Front
The first shot shows the overall plan for the Minsk districts. I've only just moved the assault divs to the frontier,so as to limit any German response, and the power of this offensive is not just in the 2 tank and 2 shock armies, the 'normal' rifle armies have shuffled to the sides of these bodies and often have 3 rifle divs in the front line too. There are also a couple of Infantry armies in reserve.
So the offensive is to come in from the NW, the German troops at Memel will get pinned and pocketed, then grab Kalingrad and Warsaw, link up with the attack armies from Kirponos' Kiev disctrict and its off to Berlin.
This just shows a screenshot of the main offensive armies, I think the Germans will take a lot of damage but I have odds of 5:1 and a second echelon at the points I really want to break through.
This is the Kiev District equivalent, similar power except I muddled up 4 TA and 3 SA (not 1SA as I managed to label it) so the tanks go in first, as opposed to walking over ground the shock army has opened up.
Goal in the first phase is the Krakow-Warsaw line, envelop any German attack into Hungary and join up with the forces of the Minsk district - for some reason this reads like the Soviet offensives in late 1944, early 45
If this works, the German AI is going to regret all those ships that they are currently sailing around the world in.
Not mentioned, as I probably won't use them, but there is a transport fleet in Leningrad if I feel really brave (Stockholm could be a good target) and Paras and Transports at Riga.
The first shot shows the overall plan for the Minsk districts. I've only just moved the assault divs to the frontier,so as to limit any German response, and the power of this offensive is not just in the 2 tank and 2 shock armies, the 'normal' rifle armies have shuffled to the sides of these bodies and often have 3 rifle divs in the front line too. There are also a couple of Infantry armies in reserve.
So the offensive is to come in from the NW, the German troops at Memel will get pinned and pocketed, then grab Kalingrad and Warsaw, link up with the attack armies from Kirponos' Kiev disctrict and its off to Berlin.
This just shows a screenshot of the main offensive armies, I think the Germans will take a lot of damage but I have odds of 5:1 and a second echelon at the points I really want to break through.
This is the Kiev District equivalent, similar power except I muddled up 4 TA and 3 SA (not 1SA as I managed to label it) so the tanks go in first, as opposed to walking over ground the shock army has opened up.
Goal in the first phase is the Krakow-Warsaw line, envelop any German attack into Hungary and join up with the forces of the Minsk district - for some reason this reads like the Soviet offensives in late 1944, early 45
If this works, the German AI is going to regret all those ships that they are currently sailing around the world in.
Not mentioned, as I probably won't use them, but there is a transport fleet in Leningrad if I feel really brave (Stockholm could be a good target) and Paras and Transports at Riga.