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Who Dares Wins (June, 1944: Hitler killed and NSDAP gone... what's next?)

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Hax said:
I have asked in the flag thread to make the flag in HoI2 format;)

Have Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia cores on the coast which controlled by Italy?
And what about Albania if the fascist is gone?
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Hax, my creative director. :D

On your first question, yes:

- Croatia have cores on the coast down to Dubrovnik + Mostar.
- Bosnia have Mostar as core.
- Serbia have Montenegro as core.

Any else that should have cores you think?

When we talk about Albania, I'll think we should add Slovenia and Montenegro as well:

Albania is currently occupied by the Italians as part of the peace- and pact between Germany, Italy and the allies, but there's strong resistance in Albania to make the italians go home.

The same thing in Montenegro, both the people as well as Serbia want it back from Italy.

There is some form of resistance in Slovenia as well.

And this will be handle via events: because at game starts, neither Serbia, nor Croatia, is strong enough to tackle Italy or Germany if it comes to war, but if Italy and Germany will keep these provinces, it will come to a cost.

After the winter, early 1945 that is, the situation in Europe will probably have changed and if new communistic countries in the east starts supporting, they (Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, Slovenia, Montenegro) will have a much easier to get their demands, so it will be to pick your allies carefully, because as we all know, if one wins something, another one loses something...
 
The storyline you're proposing is quite unrealistic... Why would the Allies leave all these conquered lands to Germany? Even the actual ideas of Staufenberg and his happy crew were less optimistic - Austria, Sudetenland, plebiscite in Alsace, western Poland. And the other thing is what WAS possible: if you ask me, Germany would be only able to keep Stettin and part of Silesia. Without even Austria.
 
Akaki said:
The storyline you're proposing is quite unrealistic... Why would the Allies leave all these conquered lands to Germany? Even the actual ideas of Staufenberg and his happy crew were less optimistic - Austria, Sudetenland, plebiscite in Alsace, western Poland. And the other thing is what WAS possible: if you ask me, Germany would be only able to keep Stettin and part of Silesia. Without even Austria.
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First of all, sure, it's certainly a bit unrealistic... hell, it's an ahistorical mod after all, but you're of course free to suggest how it should be handled. What I've done so far, is just how the scenario looks at game starts one week after Hitler was killed.

But in a attempt to answer your question why Germany have the land that they have now, here's how I reasoned:

- With Hitler killed, lots of unrest within the civil community, massdesertions and a huge moral hitof the army threatens the whole german defence to collapse in its darkest hour
- UK and US who's the strongest nation in the alliances sees it more important to stop communism and the Soviet union that threatens the whole, free Europe and therefore thinks it's more important to prioritize Germany than to listen to some borderstruggle between the allies minor nations

With that said, those border rivalry will be featured trough events later in game. But if you have thoughts on changes, please tell me now, since I'm about to finish the scenario setup and move on to eventwriting.

Thanks for input and interest!
 
Hax said:
I have asked in the flag thread to make the flag in HoI2 format;)

Have Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia cores on the coast which controlled by Italy?
And what about Albania if the fascist is gone?
Click to expand...

Don't think that flag correspinds to the HoI2 timeline... Will try to find smth better.
 
Albania and Yugoslavia should immeditely go Communist. The fascist puppets in Yugoslavia were just a joke, there is no chance they would hold if the Germans were not around anymore. And Albania was entirely communist snce 1943 except for some limited areas near the coast.
 
TeutonburgerW said:
- UK and US who's the strongest nation in the alliances sees it more important to stop communism and the Soviet union that threatens the whole, free Europe and therefore thinks it's more important to prioritize Germany than to listen to some borderstruggle between the allies minor nations
Click to expand...

Only some drastic and completly unprobable action like Soviet assault on India would make UK/USA even consider peace with Germany. IRL no one seriously considered a ceasefire with Germany, USA didn't care what happens to Germany and even though they could capture Prague they left it to the Soviets. If Hitler was assasinated, Germany would just fight the Soviets with everything they could hoping the Allies will capture all of it's territory before them.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you're working on this mod but I just hate unprobable and unrealistic storylines :). What seems more-or-less probable to me:
-Hitler is dead, everyone's happy, some bad guys like Himmler are sentenced to death by the conspirators for their war crimes, Germany leaves France, Benelux, Rhineland and Alsace-Lorraine is demilitarized. Denmark is freed (Germany keeps that one border prov.). Poland is "liberated" in pre-1939 borders without Danzig, "corridor" (I hate this name), Silesia and western parts of Wielkopolska), Germany promisses a possible union with Lithuania to compensate that - just like it was planned IRL. Germany pays reparations for the UK. UK is more or less happy, USA cares only about Japan from now on. Italy belongs to UK, Yugoslavia is neutral.
Take it from here :).
 
Amallric said:
Albania and Yugoslavia should immeditely go Communist. The fascist puppets in Yugoslavia were just a joke, there is no chance they would hold if the Germans were not around anymore. And Albania was entirely communist snce 1943 except for some limited areas near the coast.
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Yes, they will with a 90% chance become communistic, if Germany don't manage to turn the tide (which they most time wont) or if allies go in and help and "seize" parts of Germany, Italy, Balkans, etc and the Soviet are to afraid to declare war upon them, but that will be decided by event, depending on how the game is progressing; A won't always cause B etc. And the only reason to the current situation with a Croatian and Bosnian puppet, is that Germany don't have the time, manpower or interest in keeping them under their control, but according to the peaceagreement, got to do their best to bring indepenced to former occupied countries and help in the transition from a dictatorship based in Berlin to some form of democracy.

Akaki said:
Only some drastic and completly unprobable action like Soviet assault on India would make UK/USA even consider peace with Germany. IRL no one seriously considered a ceasefire with Germany, USA didn't care what happens to Germany and even though they could capture Prague they left it to the Soviets. If Hitler was assasinated, Germany would just fight the Soviets with everything they could hoping the Allies will capture all of it's territory before them.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you're working on this mod but I just hate unprobable and unrealistic storylines :). What seems more-or-less probable to me:
-Hitler is dead, everyone's happy, some bad guys like Himmler are sentenced to death by the conspirators for their war crimes, Germany leaves France, Benelux, Rhineland and Alsace-Lorraine is demilitarized. Denmark is freed (Germany keeps that one border prov.). Poland is "liberated" in pre-1939 borders without Danzig, "corridor" (I hate this name), Silesia and western parts of Wielkopolska), Germany promisses a possible union with Lithuania to compensate that - just like it was planned IRL. Germany pays reparations for the UK. UK is more or less happy, USA cares only about Japan from now on. Italy belongs to UK, Yugoslavia is neutral.
Take it from here :).
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I buy your point, absolutley, but that wouldn't be the ground for as much fun to play. It would basicly create the same situation as in the 1945 scenario, since Soviet union going to steamroll Germany, make communistic puppets, etc, while the allies won't declaer nor threaten the soviet union with war until much later.

So, in order to make this game somewhat funny, intersting and offer some kind of uniqness compared to already existing scenarios and mods, I'll stick to the current setup where the base premises is that the allies see the communist as a by far larger threat to freedom than a Germany without Hitler.

Thanks for your input and I hope once this goes somewhat polished, that you may enjoy a game with it!
 
Only some drastic and completly unprobable action like Soviet assault on India would make UK/USA even consider peace with Germany. IRL no one seriously considered a ceasefire with Germany, USA didn't care what happens to Germany and even though they could capture Prague they left it to the Soviets. If Hitler was assasinated, Germany would just fight the Soviets with everything they could hoping the Allies will capture all of it's territory before them.
Click to expand...

USA yes, UK no. Churchill has always been very strongly opposed to Communists, he hated Soviet Union. In 1940 UK didn't went to war with the SU by pure chance, it was a questions of weeks. Then Churchill always tried to backstab the Soviet Union, look at his plans for a landing in the balkans, he always pressed on the Poland issue and so on...Between Hitler's panzers facing Dover and Stalin a few thousand miles to the east he choose the lesser evil, but that's about it. I think he wouldn't hesitate to strike a deal with the Von Stauffenberg crowd and gently explain to the Soviets that they have to return to their pre-war borders while serious people(i.e. Germany, England, and USA) will discuss the shape of post-war Europe in London. From that point we can imagine that Stalin could, indeed go mad, trying to grab as much land as he can - which gives a good casus belli against him, not only for Churchill(he wouldn't need it) but even Roosevelt.

However I agree that Germany wouldn't keep the conquered territories. Complete evacuation of the West to the state of September 1st, 1939 sounds like a must to me. In the east the situation is different though. I don't think anybody would begin bitching about Poland's borders with Soviet hordes rushing precisely well towards Poland. An official recognition of Poland's sovereignity by Germany and an agreement to gather an internation summit after the war to decide of the shape of Germany's eastern border would do, I believe. After all the current border was only recongnized like in 1990.

Massive Communist uprisings in Southern Europe, Italy, perhaps France are mandatory too. IRL there was like 40.000 armed and trained communist militias in France by July 1944. In Italy the situation was even worse. And I'm not even speaking of Greece.
 
Amallric said:
USA yes, UK no. Churchill has always been very strongly opposed to Communists, he hated Soviet Union. In 1940 UK didn't went to war with the SU by pure chance, it was a questions of weeks. Then Churchill always tried to backstab the Soviet Union, look at his plans for a landing in the balkans, he always pressed on the Poland issue and so on...Between Hitler's panzers facing Dover and Stalin a few thousand miles to the east he choose the lesser evil, but that's about it. I think he wouldn't hesitate to strike a deal with the Von Stauffenberg crowd and gently explain to the Soviets that they have to return to their pre-war borders while serious people(i.e. Germany, England, and USA) will discuss the shape of post-war Europe in London. From that point we can imagine that Stalin could, indeed go mad, trying to grab as much land as he can - which gives a good casus belli against him, not only for Churchill(he wouldn't need it) but even Roosevelt.

However I agree that Germany wouldn't keep the conquered territories. Complete evacuation of the West to the state of September 1st, 1939 sounds like a must to me. In the east the situation is different though. I don't think anybody would begin bitching about Poland's borders with Soviet hordes rushing precisely well towards Poland. An official recognition of Poland's sovereignity by Germany and an agreement to gather an internation summit after the war to decide of the shape of Germany's eastern border would do, I believe. After all the current border was only recongnized like in 1990.

Massive Communist uprisings in Southern Europe, Italy, perhaps France are mandatory too. IRL there was like 40.000 armed and trained communist militias in France by July 1944. In Italy the situation was even worse. And I'm not even speaking of Greece.
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So these changes would be good if I want to add some "historical plausibility":

- Give France and Belgium back their territories and Germany only gets to keep them as national provinces (i.e. they can claim them)
- Dissent to start with in Italy and Greece. Than events to simulate the growing pressure going leftish which the goverment can supress by strike them back to a high dissent cost etc and if Soviet Union controls the balkans... the pressure will be even higher, to coop into the communists demands.
 
Amallric said:
Yeah something like 50% dissent in Greece and Italy, 30% in France would be a good idea.
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Wow, that's massive. :eek:

I'll start with something a bit smaller and adjust if its necessary, like 20% in France and 30% dissent. in Italy and Greece That's even a huge amount. Haven't seen any mod where a nation start with 50% dissent, because in that level, rebels will popup all the time..
 
Hax said:
Any progress?:rolleyes:
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Well, haven't worked so intense on it for a couple of days to due other commitments (some RL, some paradox related...;))

I did some test runs on it and had two good games with Germany, but gosh, it was hard! It wasn't until I used "acceptall" and manage to trade some oil and supplies, that I could halt the front right before Berlin.

I kind of like the setup as it is know and don't think further changes to make it more plausible in terms of what whould really happen if Hitler got killed would be as fun to play and since the interest is low, even though it was intended for AOD and how cool the premisses are (;)), but then it's rather my fantasyscenario that I know will have less players than a more stricly plausbile scenario and one gotta admit, everyone wants her mod to be played by as many as possible.

I'll upload the files, let anyone who wants, to use whatever I've done, and if some people think it actually should be cool to have it or have it included in another, may it be to AOD or in a mod... I'm sure interested in keep developing, but I don't want to waste my precious hours if I get nothing back to me in the end, in form of community enjoyment, etc. so therefore, I will have it on pause until further.

If anyone do want to play it... Play Germany! And prepare for one hell of a fight! ;)

Code: 
############################
### 10/01/12: Build 2      #
############################

Scenarios:

- Changed ownership of province Osijek from Serbia to Croatia and added Mostar as a national province of Croatia
- Revised OOB's on the Italian front for following nations: Brazil, Canada, France, New Seeland, South Africa and the UK.
- Bosnia are now a puppet to Croatia and in the axis alliance

GFX:

- Added missing minister pics to Macedonia 
- Changed flag & shield for Macedonia (from EUIII to HOI-style) and Bosnia (croat version)

Bugs:

- Changed capital to Paris and Brussels for France and Belgium (was in Brazzevile and Banana)

############################
### 10/01/11: Build 1      #
############################

Scenario:

- Revised German OOB (German troops in formerly occupied territories are now in Berlin at scenario start, except for AOK. Norwegen which transfered to the finnish front)
- Revised relations (in following nations .inc: GER, UK, USA and FRA)
- Removed Waffen-SS divisions from Germany
- Changed start date from june 20th to june 27th 
- Bosnia: New HoS (Esat Pasha Toptani) and HoG (Mehmed Alabegovic)

Fixed bugs:

- Italy declares war on Greece at scenario start. 

############################
### 10/01/10: First draft  #
############################

- Basic scenario setup 

Kudos to:

- New nation: Macedonia (U13) (Mod new nation)
- New colorscale (Sexxicolors)


Download latest build (B2)


And last, but not least, thank you:

Code: 
[B]Creative directors:[/B]

HAX
dutchemperor

[B]Grahpical assistance by:[/B]

vaximillan
 
Hax said:
So will Bosnia be able to switch side to Commitern?
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Bosnia is a puppet of Germany and thus in war with Comintern.

If Germany lose the war, the comintern will take Balkan lands and will probably release a YSSR.

If Bosnia manage to break free from their German puppet masters, both Croatia and Serbia sure wants their provinces and will probably declare war upon Bosnia.

But that's how it is in the current version. The best, both roleplaying and gameplay-wise, would probably have some event chains that would cover a number of different situations:

I.e. Soviet Russia takes step to increase its influence in the balkans country. At scenario start, changes are slim that they succed, but they greater reward for the balkan countries if they accept... Once the soviet hordes reaches Hungary, deep into Romania, etc. There won't be much room to discuss with the Soviet goverment, but they will probably occupy Bosnian and Croatian land and have them as puppets or form a decimated Yugoslavian Republic.

But if communists gain support within the independt Balkan lands, German and Italian won't take it easily and will the support be enough or will the red army be in time in case of axis DoW?

But for know, as said earlier, Soviet will probably steamroll Balkans and release a decimated YSSR.
 
TeutonburgerW said:
Well, haven't worked so intense on it for a couple of days to due other commitments (some RL, some paradox related...;))

I did some test runs on it and had two good games with Germany, but gosh, it was hard! It wasn't until I used "acceptall" and manage to trade some oil and supplies, that I could halt the front right before Berlin.

I kind of like the setup as it is know and don't think further changes to make it more plausible in terms of what whould really happen if Hitler got killed would be as fun to play and since the interest is low, even though it was intended for AOD and how cool the premisses are (;)), but then it's rather my fantasyscenario that I know will have less players than a more stricly plausbile scenario and one gotta admit, everyone wants her mod to be played by as many as possible.

I'll upload the files, let anyone who wants, to use whatever I've done, and if some people think it actually should be cool to have it or have it included in another, may it be to AOD or in a mod... I'm sure interested in keep developing, but I don't want to waste my precious hours if I get nothing back to me in the end, in form of community enjoyment, etc. so therefore, I will have it on pause until further.

If anyone do want to play it... Play Germany! And prepare for one hell of a fight! ;)
Click to expand...

it is a really good fight. currently im at the middle of march in 1945. its easier, imo, than the 1944 scenario. i almost held finland (they surrendered during my counter attack and i lost that army but whatever). in the north i slowed the russians down at gulebene and dug in on the dvinia. in the middle i fell back and counter attack lead elements. all my extra forces went to the south where i was involved in some really heavy fighting for lvov and strjyc. i ended up counter attacking in the middle towards pinsk but i was driven back. using the extra ese i was able to out manouver the russian forces who became spread out and i never was seriously threatened until winter but the snow kept them away and my counter attack disorged them. i retook all of romania.


the lack of SS hurts but the fact that im only on 1 front and i have positive ESE makes up for it and then some, imo.
 
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