The People’s Flag: A History of the Union of Britain, 1925-2010

[trekaddict]

I don't think I like where this is going.


The poltical situation in your version of Britain that is. It will make for an interesting read but will suck for the people in that Universe.

 

[Asalto]

I don't think I like where this is going.


The poltical situation in your version of Britain that is. It will make for an interesting read but will suck for the people in that Universe.

Come on, Mosley can't be so bad. He's probably just friendly and easy going gentleman playing tough guy. At least I hope so.

 

[trekaddict]

Come on, Mosley can't be so bad. He's probably just friendly and easy going gentleman playing tough guy. At least I hope so.

Sorry, but I know where he ended up IOTL, and I simply can't help but doubt his motives, especially since this Britain is pseudo-almost Communist already. I'd place Syndicalism as practised in the UoB at the moment well short of Stalinism, but with Mosley I predict a shift in it's direction.

 

[Asalto]

Sorry, but I know where he ended up IOTL, and I simply can't help but doubt his motives, especially since this Britain is pseudo-almost Communist already. I'd place Syndicalism as practised in the UoB at the moment well short of Stalinism, but with Mosley I predict a shift in it's direction.

You're right, it's interesting setup, but scarry for the people in Meadow's universe. If Totalists will get in power in Britain(Mosley's Maximists) and in most of Syndicalist nations(Bolsheviks of Beria are already de facto leading Georgia, Bukharin could get in power in Russia if people overthrow the crazy Wrangel, if National Bolsheviks of Mussolini dominate Italy and if Sorelians get absolute power in France, I' not sure about Bengal though), the world is pretty much screwed. Totalists would then be some kind of Stalinists IRL, destroying both enemies and allies that don't follow their political line. I wouldn't like this kind of Syndicalism taking over, it would destroy current plural Socialism which is in fact united front of Left-Wing movements(Syndie countries are kind of democracies at the start).

 

[Enewald]

One should not let ignorant people vote...

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Don't panic. USA will rescue, sigh, the world!

One should not let ignorant people vote...

Then nobody would vote.

 

[Meadow]

Thanks for all the comments.

@Zeldar - Blair's time will come. I won't comment on exactly when, though.

@Asalto - in this world, Stalin never made General Secretary into the all-powerful role that it was under his leadership. Remember, Lenin was Chairman of the People's Council of Commissars and it was only Stalin who, as General Secretary, manipulated the party and country until he was de facto leader, thus making General Secretary into the top job. The timid Snowden and loyal Horner have never done this, and consequently the real power continues to rest with the Chairman in the Union of Britain. The General Secretary's main job is to put the Chairman's wishes into action, with little power of his own past negotiation and, of course, being able to make suggestions that the Chairman will usually listen to. Whether that dynamic will play out very well under Horner and Mosley remains to be seen!

@Trekkie - I have to admit it does pain me to write all this, and I'm not looking forward to crucifying my homeland in the coming chapters. But all I will say is this, to prevent spoilers: it's not as bleak as it seems, and you would do well to remember that throughout British history, things have a habit of getting better.

@Enewald and Kurt - exactly...

 

[trekaddict]

Then why do I have a Vision of Margaret Thatcher standing in a ruined abandoned factory waving a Red Flag?

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

it's not as bleak as it seems, and you would do well to remember that throughout British history, things have a habit of getting better.

And worse. From Charles II to Cromwell, for instance.

 

[Meadow]

And worse. From Charles II to Cromwell, for instance.

Charles I, surely. And even then, hope came later - after the tyrant Cromwell fell, the Restoration brought an end to the tyranny of a powerful monarch. Without it, democracy would not have progressed as it did.

...and don't get me started on the hedonism and beautiful feasts of the Restoration period. Phew! If there was an amount of partying that could have justified the English Civil War, they came pretty close...

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Yep, I missed the right Charlie, although the son deserved a revolution of his own

 

[Viden]

You're right, it's interesting setup, but scarry for the people in Meadow's universe. If Totalists will get in power in Britain(Mosley's Maximists) and in most of Syndicalist nations(Bolsheviks of Beria are already de facto leading Georgia, Bukharin could get in power in Russia if people overthrow the crazy Wrangel, if National Bolsheviks of Mussolini dominate Italy and if Sorelians get absolute power in France, I' not sure about Bengal though), the world is pretty much screwed. Totalists would then be some kind of Stalinists IRL, destroying both enemies and allies that don't follow their political line. I wouldn't like this kind of Syndicalism taking over, it would destroy current plural Socialism which is in fact united front of Left-Wing movements(Syndie countries are kind of democracies at the start).

Don't be so pesimist!

BTW, National-Syndicalism =/= National-Bolshevism.

 

[talt]

From what I'm seeing in this timeline, it looks like the socialists are going to win everywhere in the world, I don't think this is very realistic and it will make the years after the Second Great War not particuarly interesting. I think we're going to see the Qing Empire or Shang win in China and they won't like the Syndicalists at all. I find it hard to believe that the Union of Britain would be able to force Canada and Australasia to surrender without the use of atomic weapons, so they'll probably remain right-wing dictatorships or

On the USA, I think the federal government is the only faction in the Civil War that can win. The problem with the AUS and CSA, is that they're aiming at a particular group of people in a particular part of the country. For blacks and many poor workers, the AUS is going to be seen as the anti-Christ, while farmers in the Midwest are going to see the CSA in a similar light and if they go on strike then the CSA would be doomed. As for the PSA, it doesn't want to win the civil war, it wants to escape from the destruction.

Another point I wish to make is this, in civil wars, the advantage is usually with the incumbent government, unless the government in question is very, very corrupt (see OTL Nationalist China or KR Spain/Russia) or the army chooses to side with the rebels (see OTL Spain). Neither of these things would be true with the USA, the US army would be much better organized than anything the rebels could bring up, with the exception of the PSA. I'm not saying a Second American Civil War would be easy, it would probably last until at least 1939, but I think the chances of Reed winning even with foreign supplies would small.

 

[Meadow]

From what I'm seeing in this timeline, it looks like the socialists are going to win everywhere in the world, I don't think this is very realistic and it will make the years after the Second Great War not particuarly interesting. I think we're going to see the Qing Empire or Shang win in China and they won't like the Syndicalists at all. I find it hard to believe that the Union of Britain would be able to force Canada and Australasia to surrender without the use of atomic weapons, so they'll probably remain right-wing dictatorships or

On the USA, I think the federal government is the only faction in the Civil War that can win. The problem with the AUS and CSA, is that they're aiming at a particular group of people in a particular part of the country. For blacks and many poor workers, the AUS is going to be seen as the anti-Christ, while farmers in the Midwest are going to see the CSA in a similar light and if they go on strike then the CSA would be doomed. As for the PSA, it doesn't want to win the civil war, it wants to escape from the destruction.

Another point I wish to make is this, in civil wars, the advantage is usually with the incumbent government, unless the government in question is very, very corrupt (see OTL Nationalist China or KR Spain/Russia) or the army chooses to side with the rebels (see OTL Spain). Neither of these things would be true with the USA, the US army would be much better organized than anything the rebels could bring up, with the exception of the PSA. I'm not saying a Second American Civil War would be easy, it would probably last until at least 1939, but I think the chances of Reed winning even with foreign supplies would small.

I think you underestimate the complexity (and longevity) of the plans I have in mind for this. I'd advise waiting until after the Second Great War before you decide whether it's a realistic outcome, or whether it'll be 'particularly interesting'.

Also, don't forget that this is an ATL history book about the Union of Britain. International events don't really get mentioned much except where Britain is directly involved, outside of the International Interludes. The focus (without giving anything away) will remain firmly on Britain for the entirety of the book, and I can assure you that the plans I have in mind for the Union throughout the 20th century are very, very interesting.

 

[Viden]

From what I'm seeing in this timeline, it looks like the socialists are going to win everywhere in the world, I don't think this is very realistic and it will make the years after the Second Great War not particuarly interesting. I think we're going to see the Qing Empire or Shang win in China and they won't like the Syndicalists at all. I find it hard to believe that the Union of Britain would be able to force Canada and Australasia to surrender without the use of atomic weapons, so they'll probably remain right-wing dictatorships or

Why? By now strong Syndicalism is reduced to syndicalist countries, Russian bolshevists, Spanish anarchists and American syndicalists.

On the USA, I think the federal government is the only faction in the Civil War that can win. The problem with the AUS and CSA, is that they're aiming at a particular group of people in a particular part of the country. For blacks and many poor workers, the AUS is going to be seen as the anti-Christ, while farmers in the Midwest are going to see the CSA in a similar light and if they go on strike then the CSA would be doomed. As for the PSA, it doesn't want to win the civil war, it wants to escape from the destruction.

In the SCW of OTL, both sides represented only a particular group of people, and all we know what happened to the government. And who says that syndies and unionists are reduced to a particular part of the country? For example, Texan loyalty to the federal government doesn't mean there's no syndies or unionists in Texas.

Moreover, poor workers could see the AUS as the response to their prayers. The Share our Wealth policy benefits the poor while harms the rich. And Huey Long isn't racist and the America First. And the same goes to the impoverished farmers and the CSA.

And for the PSA, well, they obviously want to secede the USA.

Another point I wish to make is this, in civil wars, the advantage is usually with the incumbent government, unless the government in question is very, very corrupt (see OTL Nationalist China or KR Spain/Russia) or the army chooses to side with the rebels (see OTL Spain). Neither of these things would be true with the USA, the US army would be much better organized than anything the rebels could bring up, with the exception of the PSA. I'm not saying a Second American Civil War would be easy, it would probably last until at least 1939, but I think the chances of Reed winning even with foreign supplies would small.

In OTL not all the Spanish Army joined the goverment. In fact, the government didn't crush the rebellion in the first months due the disorganization caused by the revolutionary activity. The rebel side lacked of the main industrial centers, supplies, etc... (In the North zone of the Nationals, the rebels couldn't afford more than two weeks of combats without running out of ammunition).

The government of KR USA is very incompetent, the loyalty of the Army is really in doubt (MacArthur tries to seize the power in what seems a Coup d'Etat with other name...) and the American economy lays in ruins. In fact, the situation of KR USA in 1936-37 is very close to OTL Russia in 1916-1917 (Except, the World War). And even if all the US Military stay loyal, remember that it's a very small military, compared both to OTL Spanish Army of 1936 and the paramilitary forces of the AF and CSA.

 

[talt]

Meadow- Sorry if I caused any offence, it slipped my mind what the main focus of this book would be. It will be interesting to see whether the UoB manages to return to democracy and what the fate of Canada, Germany, France, Russia and the USA will be.

Viden- There are a few clues, '...until the end of the Second Reich' and 'Socialist Republic of India', those suggest that the Syndicalists do fairly well in World War II.

Three things, will decide the SACW in my opinion:

i) How much supplies the CSA get from the French and British. This could go either way. If the CSA gets too few supplies, it may be overwhelmed by the USA or one of the other factions. If it gets too many, too overtly, then the AUS and PSA might decide to form a temporary alliance to stop the British and French.

ii) Does Canada seize New England. If not, then the USA will still have a fairly secure industrial area, which can be used to cut the CSA off from some of it's largest cities. If Canada does, then the USA will probably be doomed.

iii) How much of the US navy and airforce remain loyal. Both would greatly increase the firepower of the US military in the crucial early months of the civil war or the firepower of the faction they choose to support.

 

[Viden]

Meadow- Sorry if I caused any offence, it slipped my mind what the main focus of this book would be. It will be interesting to see whether the UoB manages to return to democracy and what the fate of Canada, Germany, France, Russia and the USA will be.

Demowhat!?

Viden- There are a few clues, '...until the end of the Second Reich' and 'Socialist Republic of India', those suggest that the Syndicalists do fairly well in World War II.

I didn't read the whole AAR. Some updates are too heavy for me oo). But think that Germany isn't alone. Wrangel's Russia, Japanese Empire, Qing China... Could be a formidable opponent for the International, even the last destroys Germany. Moreover, by now we don't knos the outcome of the Second US Civil War.

Three things, will decide the SACW in my opinion:

i) How much supplies the CSA get from the French and British. This could go either way. If the CSA gets too few supplies, it may be overwhelmed by the USA or one of the other factions. If it gets too many, too overtly, then the AUS and PSA might decide to form a temporary alliance to stop the British and French.

ii) Does Canada seize New England. If not, then the USA will still have a fairly secure industrial area, which can be used to cut the CSA off from some of it's largest cities. If Canada does, then the USA will probably be doomed.

iii) How much of the US navy and airforce remain loyal. Both would greatly increase the firepower of the US military in the crucial early months of the civil war or the firepower of the faction they choose to support.

That's ok, but remember that part of the navy defects to AUS, CSA and PSA.

Another interesting thing is the internal division of the AUS between the "Nazis" and the "Fascists" (I know both ideologies doesn't exist like that in KR, but they are the better words I find to describe the factions). And the role of the KKK in the AUS.

PS: I wonder if Japan would intervene in the SACW... Seizing Hawaii for example.

 

[Fiyenyaa]

Yahoo! Another update!

I think Japan is going to be an interesting player in this timeline, due to it's apparent (from what I can gather) support of Democracy. Although I very much doubt that will put any halt to their opportunism.

 

[Zhuge Liang]

The future for the UoB does look rather ominous but the hints that have been given are tantalising- things look grim but I doubt Mosley is going to descend completely into cackling supervillainy or Stalinist megalomania.

 

[unmerged(169228)]

Another great and obviously well researched update. Guess the tension between Mosley and Horner will be a plotpoint for at least a few years. Nice to see Wrangel Russia too, always one of my favourite opponents.

I saw you made Fuller a syndie, yet Kaiserreich canon states he is an exile and personal friend of King Edward. I know you are free to make him whatever you want, but wouldn't a certain Captain Liddell Hart make a more sane and coherent companion for Mosley?
On that matter, what is the status of all those old boys leading the army? How are all those public school types as Brooke, Montgomery, Veneker, Hobart and Downing holding out in the peoples army?