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Nerdfish

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Jul 11, 2007
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http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/111/1110108p1.html

Here. EA is releasing a SIM game set in medieval times. I guess there is nothing like a little competition to spice things up.

"The Middle Ages is a time of intrigue, legend, and excitement. It offers a perfect backdrop for a brand new series from The Sims studio due to the limitless stories that can be told," said Scott Evans, GM of The Sims Studio at EA. "The Sims Medieval offers a new way for players to experience The Sims which we hope fans will enjoy, and it features gameplay that fans of strategy and role-playing games will find appealing such as controlling an entire kingdom and quest-based gameplay mechanics."
 
Hmm... no fantasy stuff like magic. Probably no fighting (as it is The Sims in medieval times). Not sure if I'll like it, but I'll definately give it a shot!
 
The Sims Medieval will allow players to control Hero Sims from all walks of life -- from kings and queens to knights and wizards, blacksmiths and bards. Customization options will allow players to select their hero's traits and fatal flaw, adding a very karma-like twist to the Medieval action.

I bet Fantasy is in. Sims had things like UFO and genies also.
I am already thinking of queens that cast fireballs :D
 
http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/111/1110108p1.html

Here. EA is releasing a SIM game set in medieval times. I guess there is nothing like a little competition to spice things up.
I am simultaneously thrilled and terrified.

...This isn't exactly a 'little' competition. But the game itself could be wonderful. The only bit that worries me is that it's still talking about controlling heroes, which is distinctly un-simlike (and un-majesty-like.)

I'm not sure if this bodes well or ill for a Majesty sequel. On the one hand, it could greatly invigorate interest in the-for-lack-of-a-better-word-genre. On the other hand, competing for attention with anything tangentially Sims-related must be a bitch. That's one niche they've got sown up tight.

EDIT: Actually, wait, the quest mechanics mentioned only apply to the player, not to the heroes. There might not be an analogue to flag placement.
 
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Quest mechanics == Flags
Craft skills == Economy simulation

Control of the entire kingdom? Heroes with unique personalities? RPG/RTS elements in the mix? The only difference I'm seeing from Majesty at this point is, again, the presence of (optional) direct control. (The Sims have always had optional free will, and if you're controlling an entire kingdom it'll have to be switched on by default.) Speaking as someone who actually liked the original Sims, but couldn't get get over how 'mundane' everything felt after a bit, this sounds like about 90% of everything I ever wanted from a Majesty sequel. In theory, I can get the other 10% by opting to *not* control my heroes.

...well, as long as they don't all speak Simlish.
 
On reflection, though, what 'quest mechanics' will amount to seems unclear- it might be talking about quests given to the player, rather than quests the player gives. Also, no mention of terrain randomisation or the like...

EDIT: Yup. Quests are arbitrary hoops for the player to jump through. Shoot.
 
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Quests for players is a pretty good idea - I proposed a style of play that does not require a player to smash every other base on the map to win. Rather, a victory is based on "victory points" yielded by quests. Hopefully something similar is being considered.

If indirect control is introduced to this project, it would be pretty much perfect.
 
Quests for players is a pretty good idea - I proposed a style of play that does not require a player to smash every other base on the map to win. Rather, a victory is based on "victory points" yielded by quests. Hopefully something similar is being considered.
Problem is, one of the best ways to get ahead in victory points would presumably be to sabotage other players' efforts, at which point you're back to smashing every base on the map.

I mean, there have been lots of games that tried to allow for victory through non-violent methods (e.g, cultural domination in Civ 3+, building wonders or finding artifacts in AoE,) but they still tend to devolve into deathmatches. The problem isn't the method of victory- the problem is that the players are being pitted against eachother at all.
If indirect control is introduced to this project, it would be pretty much perfect.
Hopefully.
 
Problem is, one of the best ways to get ahead in victory points would presumably be to sabotage other players' efforts, at which point you're back to smashing every base on the map.

I mean, there have been lots of games that tried to allow for victory through non-violent methods (e.g, cultural domination in Civ 3+, building wonders or finding artifacts in AoE,) but they still tend to devolve into deathmatches. The problem isn't the method of victory- the problem is that the players are being pitted against eachother at all.

Hopefully.

Alfryd, Victory point only devolve into death matches when there is a reasonable chance for a siege. If base defenses are much more powerful then mobile units and there are no reliable way to defeat them, the best one could hope for is to corner an opponent in his base. In this case, if it's not a 1 v 1 match, the it gives room for a third party to steal victory points / map control from the dominant player/alliance.
 
That's an even worst design! You basically have one player defeated that is forced to keep playing. If a victory is clear, then it should end then and there (If victory is a goal, of course.)
 
nothing said there shouldn't be attrition cost in keeping the enemy in their base. So you can never do it forever.
Remember that most RTS become fairly one sided after the first a few minutes because the winning side keeps winning. if you can never damage someone else's economy, then they will always be able to make a comeback.
 
Alfryd, Victory point only devolve into death matches when there is a reasonable chance for a siege. If base defenses are much more powerful then mobile units and there are no reliable way to defeat them, the best one could hope for is to corner an opponent in his base. In this case, if it's not a 1 v 1 match, the it gives room for a third party to steal victory points / map control from the dominant player/alliance.
It's possible, but besieging their base is only one of the principle methods of sabotaging the other player. You could simply spend most of your time and energy harassing opposing heroes whenever they sally forth on their quests- in which case, actually accomplishing the quests which hand you victory points would be something you could only do during the occasional lulls in inter-player skirmishes. It would just as frenetic as a deathmatch, but more likely to stalemate.

The general trend in RTS design has been away from tougher base defences for years, because in the context of direct inter-player rivalry, they ultimately just slow things down.

What you *could* do is implement 'racetrack' conditions where the players can't directly interact- because the map is completely partitioned or because they play on different maps entirely- but have to rush to complete their quests before the others do. It could work, in principle, and keep things relatively friendly, but the problem is it's not especially Sim-like. (The citybuilder series tried to implement something similar in Emperor, and it didn't have particular appeal- the progress of your rivals was too... abstract when all you could see was some statistics attached to a foreign city on the map.)

It's possible you could have multiple kingdoms on the same map, and allow them to interact, but simply make it illegal to place bounties on the heads of enemy heroes at all. Rivalries would then be restricted to (A) competing over those victory points or (B) alliances of convenience, since direct competition would be impossible.

Personally, though, I reckon you're better off focusing on co-op multiplayer instead. You'll keep the 'Lite' Gamists happy, without inviting all the problems associated with the Hard Core.
 
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That's an even worst design! You basically have one player defeated that is forced to keep playing. If a victory is clear, then it should end then and there (If victory is a goal, of course.)
Well, theoretically the 'stuck' player could always quit playing, of course... though they might hang around just to spite their opponent.

If you had some kind of matchmaking/ladder-ranking setup in place, once way you could reduce that kind of behaviour would be to increase the 'XP' given to the losing player if the game ended with a voluntary surrender. (Reward graceful losers, so to speak.) Then again, ladder-rankings might be a little too intense for 'lite' gamism...
 
It's possible you could have multiple kingdoms on the same map, and allow them to interact, but simply make it illegal to place bounties on the heads of enemy heroes at all. Rivalries would then be restricted to (A) competing over those victory points or (B) alliances of convenience, since direct competition would be impossible.
Depths of Peril might be an interesting case study here, actually, since it manages to provide a reasonable balance between exploration of the surrounding countryside and raids between rival Covenants (albeit on the scale of a single character+allies.)

I will say one thing about the press release for Sims Medieval, though- it confirms what I've suspected for a while now, which is that a lot of players of Sim games are actually Narrativists.
Creativity will soar as players tell stories like never before full of drama, romance, conflict, and comedy.
“The Middle Ages is a time of intrigue, legend, and excitement. It offers a perfect backdrop for a brand new series from The Sims studio due to the limitless stories that can be told... Players can choose to customize every new Hero that comes to the kingdom, including selecting their traits and their fatal flaw.
The thing about Sim titles (like, e.g, Crusader Kings) is that, while it won't especially support narrativist goals, it at least won't make them actively impossible, as would be the case with games that try to impose a predefined storyline and/or deny their supporting cast any meaningful autonomy.
 
Might explain the direction taken by Majesty 2. Not the same league. They dont even want to compete with the Sims as this game is going to be a MMORPG.

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Once again, I dont think that the different categories used to support pen & paper RPGs suit the video game universe.

Sims players, from what I gather, dont move beyond one generation or two.
Many of them seek over-achieving Sims by maxing out skills and stuff like that.

PR talks. They have to sell their new franchise. The Medieval times were many things. They cherry picked (or made up) to support the flavour their game is supposed to taste.

As it is a MMORPG, I see that game falling in the same pits as so many others MMORPG.

I always explained the success of the Sims by the fact it excludes competition from the running mill. People are free to pursue their goals without growing concerned by the amount of resources available to support their wishes. You got promoted on your side, not on the side of the hirer etc...

This version will have to deal with competition between players with all the behaviours associated with it. Or it might keep competition out of the bowl but I wonder if people are going to taste a MMO game with no competition in it.
 
Once again, I dont think that the different categories used to support pen & paper RPGs suit the video game universe.
To a degree, this is true- some of the constraints placed on tabletop RPGs either don't exist or are less severe within video games, when it comes to particular techniques. (e.g, you can implement quite complex calculations and have them run invisibly behind the scenes within a video game without the player having to learn the exact details beforehand.) Also, many video games are single-player, so that inter-player conflicts of interest aren't as likely to occur.

However, a lot of the same constraints DO apply. For example, levels, classes, XP and HP are useful in the context of Gamism but nonsensical from a Sim perspective. Conversely, wound mechanics and practice-based skill progression complement Simulationism, but just get in the way for Gamists. (And there's a number of other frictions between those and Narrativism.)

More generally, though, it's a question of size vs. commitment with respect to the audience you want to attract and the economic constraints on development. If you try to create a game that will please everyone at once, you'll probably have created a uniformly mediocre experience. If you pick a particular audience and stick to it, you'll attract a smaller but more loyal following.
PR talks. They have to sell their new franchise. The Medieval times were many things. They cherry picked (or made up) to support the flavour their game is supposed to taste.
Oh, I'm well aware that a faithful depiction of the real middle ages would have a very different flavour to it, but I'm perfectly happy with the medieval-revisionist, 'lite' fantasy version they're presenting here. I'll cheerfully take fireballs and amulets of recall over the gong pit and the oubliette, thankyouverymuch, as long as the world is internally consistent.

What worries me more about the announcement is that they *do* seem to trying to go after all 3 demographics at once. If they are not very, very, careful, they're going to drift their design straight into the muddy waters of incoherence. ...It's been argued that's happening already. Gamism, in particular, has a marked tendency to 'take over'- They might find total abstinence was easier than perfect moderation.
This version will have to deal with competition between players with all the behaviours associated with it. Or it might keep competition out of the bowl but I wonder if people are going to taste a MMO game with no competition in it.
The sense I'm getting is that the game itself isn't an MMO- it simply describes itself as borrowing MMO elements, in the sense of crafting skills, quest mechanics, and having a slew of invested characters. Not that the players represent those characters.

EA already tried going with a Sims MMO, in the Sims Online- it didn't pan out particularly well, partly because it did emphasise competition and grinding, but also- ironically- because having real people play (almost) every sim introduced out-of-character agendas that made it feel less Sim-like.

I've gradually come to the conclusion that it would be almost impossible to create a genuinely Simulationist MMO, (unless you had the NPCs outnumber the PCs by a factor of something like 10 to 1, and came up with a plausible explanation for why the PCs can never permanently die. Possibly make them demonic possessors from another plane of reality. ...Heck, that'd be mostly accurate.)