Old-fashioned DDs - scrap metal or not?

[Iwo Jima]

I often read that players scrap all old-fashion ships and I think it's not very rational approach. In this thread I'm going to talk only about old-fashioned DDs, but I also think, that old-fashioned BBs, BCs, CAs and without doubt CVs are still useful.


The facts about DDs:

1. DDs are mainly used in 3 ways: ASW, patrol, screening.

for ASW you need good Sub Detection and Sub Attack.
for patrol you need good Surface Detection and enough range.
for screening you need good positioning (depends on Surface Detection, Visibility and Naval Doctrines) and enough range.​

2. Almost all models of DD('36 to '45) have the same Surface Detection(3) and Visiblity(50). So, for patrol and screening all DDs are equally good, with exception of range.

3. Speed is another important factor. But even the DD-I has speed (24) similar to BB-IV(25). So, the speed is not a key factor for this article.

4. Another vital factor is Sea Defence. It's true, that DD-I has SD=1, while DD-IV has SD=4. But if your SAG or CTF is well-positioned, sea-battle should be in a long distance. So, your ships could be even out of enemy fire range. The question is to upgarde all your battleships with FC and to have latest model of CAGs on your CVs.

5. All other parameters (such as Air Attack or Shore Bombardment) are not important for DDs in most cases.


How to use modern and old-fashioned DDs?

Modern DDs should be used mainly for ASW operations. Upgrade they with ASW-brigades and support with CVL for best efficiency. Spotter admiral is also recommendable.

The second way of using modern DDs is screening and patrols for LONG-ranged operations (2000-3000km). These are operations in Open Seas: mainly Atlantic and Pacific, especially if you have no naval bases. For best positioning you should upgrade your screening DDs with radars.


Old-fashioned DDs could be used as screening if you don't need long range. Northern Sea, Baltic, Mediterranean, Red Sea, Black Sea, Chinese Sea, Japanese Sea, Caribbean Sea - they all could be strategically important but do not require a long range. So, your DD-I and DD-II could very useful there and could make free modern models for ASW. You could upgrade you DDs with radar for better positioning.

Also they could patrol along the coast, detecting enemy main forces or landing transports. In a case of engagement with main fleet there is low chance to escape, but you will not regret about old-fashioned DD-I in comparison with DD-IV


Not only to keep, but to build too!

The main idea of my article is using cheapest DDs for screening and detections. So, if you have technologies for DD-III and DD-IV think carefully, which model to build. DD-III is 30% cheaper. So, if you need screening ship and you're OK with range, so I advice you to build DD-III.


What countries could use old-fashioned DDs?

some typical examples:

UK and France - in Northern Sea and Mediterranean
Italy - in Mediterranean
USSR - in Baltic
Japan - in Chinese Sea and in East Indies
USA - in Caribbean Sea
any country along its coast (e.g. Norway, Brasilia, Australia)

Briefly

Use old-fashioned DDs for patrols and screening if you can, upgrade them with radars, while use your modern DDs primarily for ASW and upgrade them with ASW-brigades.​

ALSO READ BELOW COMPARISON OF COST OF BUILDING NEW DD AND KEEPING OLD ONE

 

[pdBravo]

Very helpful article, many thanks for taking the time to write it

 

[OsirisReborn]

wow i would have never known... keep em eh ?
also the more radars the better ? i figured one per fleet was enough ...wrong ?

 

[Iwo Jima]

wow i would have never known... keep em eh ?
also the more radars the better ? i figured one per fleet was enough ...wrong ?

Can't say with 100% certainty.

But as I know, fleet positioning value is composed of positioning values of each ship (plus commander skill).
Positioning value of the ship is composed of values of surface detection(for surface fleets), visibility and naval doctrine.
Radar increases value of surface detection by 1.
So, it's good to have radars on each ship.

Also, if naval doctrine gives simular positioning to DD and CL, it's always better to use DDs, because they have better detection (the higher, the better) and visibility (the lower, the better)

 

[Zardnaar]

I've found ASW missions generally a waste of time and oil. As Germany you don't need old destroyers (or any destroyers) and its not that hard to detroy the USN with Japan. USSR can ignore the navy, while the USA and Britain hardly need them either. The main reason to junk old ships is the several years of supplies and the like they will eat up (assuming 36 game) along with the lack of range on older models which I find really annoying.

 

[Iwo Jima]

OK.
Let's calculate.

One DD (any model as wiki shows) consumes 0.3 supp and 0.3 oil daily.
As I remember, oil consumes only when ship moves.

So, yearly DD eats about 0.3*12*30=108 supplies or 108/4=27 ICdays.
If you have Guns'n'Butter Chief of Army (and it's very common variant). then -15% gives us 23 ICdays. Yearly.
If you have Military Entrepreneur (+20% supplies), then 108/(4*1.20)=22.5 ICdays. Yearly.
If you have both 19 ICdays. Yearly.


New DD-III (usualy, it's a lowest model in '39-'40) cost 2IC*140days=280ICdays.
Possibly, you have some discounts for Ministers and policy.
Maximum Free Market OR Hawk Lobby gives -20%, resulting 280*0.8*0.8=180 ICdays.
Maximum Free Market AND Hawk Lobby gives -40%, resulting 280*0.6*0.6=100 ICdays.
Stern Imperialist - 10% unit cost
Old Admiral -5% DD cost
Indirect Approach Chief of Navy - 5% DD cost
So, the most rare variant gives -10-5-5=-20% cost.
So, 100 ICdays*0.8*0.8=64 ICdays.

One DD-III in the unbelievable variant has a minimum cost of 64 ICdays.
The most probable medium variant is full Hawk, maybe half FM, and -5% discount, resulting 280*0.7*0.7*0.95*0.95=123 ICdays.

Let's divide medium DD cost 123 ICdays by medium DD consumption 23 ICdays/year. And we receive about 5 years.
5 years! For peaceful or authocratic countries even more.


BRIEFLY:

Building new DD is equal to 5 or more years of keeping old DD.​

PS: I didn't counted gearing bonus, but you if you want could add -10-20% bonus, taking into consideration, that you need about a year to achieve this value. Also, I didn't mentioned tech bonus for Assembly lines, but it's '40-'42, and I doubt that you get them earlier.

PPS: if you play for resources rich country, and buy all your supplies for resources, then supplies doesn't cost for you in terms of ICdays and you should definitely anyway keep old DDs instead of building new ones.

PPPS: maybe wiki is wrong, but my game(Arma1.3b) shows for old DD-I supply consumption 0.2 (not 0.3). It turns 5 years into 7,5 years!!!

 

[Zardnaar]

The other main thing is the range. ASW missions seem to be a waste of time if not completely optional and X2-X3 DDIV in 37-38 or so will give most of the majors all the destroyers they will ever need. I only use detroyers as screens in my fleets,old boats need not apply. THe numbers look good though so maybe its a mental thing.

 

[Pepsi_max]

IIRC, Naval interdiction missions are more efficient than ASW.

 

[Iwo Jima]

The other main thing is the range. ASW missions seem to be a waste of time if not completely optional and X2-X3 DDIV in 37-38 or so will give most of the majors all the destroyers they will ever need. I only use detroyers as screens in my fleets,old boats need not apply. THe numbers look good though so maybe its a mental thing.

All my post is about range and screening ))))))))))
If you don't use ASW, you need no modern DDs in most cases.
You need modern DDs only if you need long range, but it's not often.

IIRC, Naval interdiction missions are more efficient than ASW.

As I know, Naval Interdiction increases your Surface Detection, while ASW increases your Sub Detection.

 

[pdBravo]

Started a new game keeping the old fleet.

So far so good. Did a bit more reading of the Naval Primer and reconfigured my fleets. I made 2 x 6 battleship fleets using 1 x BB3 and 5 x BB2 with all level 1 screens (9 screens I used). One of these came head to head with a Bismark/Tirpitz fleet and lost none but all 6 BB's of mine fired and inflicted heavy damage.

A year later, a few skirmishes later the Bismark and Tirpitz are at the bottom of the sea, and my total shipping losses so far are 1 CL and 1 DD (both level 1) from the North Sea.

So far only one German sub fleet has gotten into the Atlantic (I should point out I sort of allow this for roleplay purposes), it was quite a large fleet which I wasn't expecting at this stage of the game so my small 6 ship force wasn't a match and we lost a couple of minor ships there. It's been a while and no action so they must have returned to port for a bit.

 

[Iwo Jima]

Started a new game keeping the old fleet.

So far so good. Did a bit more reading of the Naval Primer and reconfigured my fleets. I made 2 x 6 battleship fleets using 1 x BB3 and 5 x BB2 with all level 1 screens (9 screens I used). One of these came head to head with a Bismark/Tirpitz fleet and lost none but all 6 BB's of mine fired and inflicted heavy damage.

A year later, a few skirmishes later the Bismark and Tirpitz are at the bottom of the sea, and my total shipping losses so far are 1 CL and 1 DD (both level 1) from the North Sea.

So far only one German sub fleet has gotten into the Atlantic (I should point out I sort of allow this for roleplay purposes), it was quite a large fleet which I wasn't expecting at this stage of the game so my small 6 ship force wasn't a match and we lost a couple of minor ships there. It's been a while and no action so they must have returned to port for a bit.

Congratulations! )

For dealing with German submarines in Atlantic you need DD-III or DD-IV, better with ASW-brigade. Also, don't forget about doctrines.
You can also turn off convoys from time to time, hence submarine raiding could gain nothing )

 

[pdBravo]

I have a few fleets in the Atlantic, none more than 6 ships.

I made a small fleet of 6 x DDIII (with asw brigade), I want to see what happens with that when it clashes. The others are differing mixtures for experimental purposes.

 

[midget_roxx]

The problem with DD-1 and 2 is their terrible range and speed. If you say get caught against a Japanese or US CTF you can say goodbye to your capital ships for being slow. Another problem they encounter is if they are doing ASW missions and get caught by another ASW fleet but they have CL's or higher level DDs then your fleet will get pounded without being able to fire back

That being said there aren't many benefits scrapping the old ships except for a small gain in supply and manpower. For UK this can be usefull late game true, but the amount of manpower you recieve for scapping 10 ships is around 5 manpower?

I wish blue emu would come back to Hoi2 to give us his incite

 

[unmerged(105989)]

I've seen Blue Emu around, just not on this thread. That said, I'm a proponent of keeping older ships and just using them in local defense roles. A level 1 DD won't stop anything, but it can be useful as a screen to catch the unescorted TPs that the AI loves to send prowling towards undefended beaches. Your DD won't kill em, but it will let you know they're coming.

 

[Zardnaar]

OK Iwo Jima here is the finest collection of floating scrap looted Venezualan oil can buy.

I need to keep the supply lines to Irelan open so I'll engage in ASW operations and see how it goes. I suspect they will slam into a small German fleet and get wiped out.

 

[Iwo Jima]

OK Iwo Jima here is the finest collection of floating scrap looted Venezualan oil can buy.

I need to keep the supply lines to Irelan open so I'll engage in ASW operations and see how it goes. I suspect they will slam into a small German fleet and get wiped out.

You really didn't understand what I mean.
DD-I with ASW is not clever choice.
leading scrap metal to the battle for fighting is stupid too.

Use them as screens for you battle-ships. Or as patrols, signaling about enemies approach.

 

[Zardnaar]

They already had that stuff equipped when I bought them. THe NZ navy in this game only has 3 BC and wouldn't even have them except full IC takeover is on.

 

[pdBravo]

They work great as screens but as asw they will be poor.

In my test game I'm up to March 1943. In my 'hit and run' running battles with the Japanese navy they've lost most of their big CV's to my loss of I think around 3 or 4 low level screens. Med is fully secured with all ports in mine or neutral hands, the super sub fleet the Germans had is a fishy play area. All I sent after those were 2 x 6 DDIII's with ASW brigade (2 fleets in rotation as quick reaction forces), later changed to a single 9 ship fleet which eventually destroyed all enemy subs. Not been much from them in quite some time.

 

[Iwo Jima]

They already had that stuff equipped when I bought them. THe NZ navy in this game only has 3 BC and wouldn't even have them except full IC takeover is on.

Oh. Didn't see NZ.
As for NZ, I doubt, that you need old scraps DDs, because it seems, that NZ should fight far from its coast. I doubt, that NZ should defend coast line, as UK should.

They work great as screens but as asw they will be poor.

In my test game I'm up to March 1943. In my 'hit and run' running battles with the Japanese navy they've lost most of their big CV's to my loss of I think around 3 or 4 low level screens. Med is fully secured with all ports in mine or neutral hands, the super sub fleet the Germans had is a fishy play area. All I sent after those were 2 x 6 DDIII's with ASW brigade (2 fleets in rotation as quick reaction forces), later changed to a single 9 ship fleet which eventually destroyed all enemy subs. Not been much from them in quite some time.

Excellent results!
Right - old for screens, new for hunting.

 

[Zardnaar]

Would you actually build more or just for the UK/USA and Japan which have large amounts of old ships.