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So are you saying that all you have to do is put down guilds/Temples and buildings and do research and the heroes will "solve" the quest/map on their own? I have my doubts... sounds like a good excuse to play some more Majesty!

That's exactly what happens. The easiest way to prove this is to choose a Freestyle game with the largest map possible and make it as hard as you like. Your heroes will eventually do everything themselves. Maybe some like that but I don't. I'd like to actually be playing a game not watching one.
 
You *do* play the game. It's just that your intervention mainly consists of building up your settlement and the infrastructure associated with supporting those heroes as they do their stuff.

To reiterate- why do you just sit back and watch the heroes complete the quest by themselves, when you supposedly hate that, and it's ten times more efficient for you to place flags and buff them with sovereign spells? What masochist impulse drives you to indulge in highly time-consuming behaviour which you self-confessedly do not enjoy?
 
You *do* play the game. It's just that your intervention mainly consists of building up your settlement and the infrastructure associated with supporting those heroes as they do their stuff.

To reiterate- why do you just sit back and watch the heroes complete the quest by themselves, when you supposedly hate that, and it's ten times more efficient for you to place flags and buff them with sovereign spells? What masochist impulse drives you to indulge in highly time-consuming behaviour which you self-confessedly do not enjoy?

Well yeah of course I can play it that way but the point I'm making is that this is an aspect of bad design. You can play any game the way you want but the question is if the game plays as intended. Majesty does not. As I stated before, the whole selling point of the original was this unique flag system, but it isn't necessary. The whole idea was that your heroes required you to place bounties for them to bother themselves but unfortunately they are far too pro-active. It would be understandable if it was say Paladins who did things for the sake of it but they all do, even rogues. That's why I enjoy Majesty 2 more. It does work.
 
Wow would my Game Design teacher have a field trip on your ass. "You can play any game the way you want but the question is if the game plays as intended. Majesty does not." Seriously? No emerging gameplay, no multiple interpretation of a common media, no art without design, and on top of that you claim to know what the creators were thinking. Wow.

--Edit--
Also, unrelated note, but in Northern Expansion, there are a lot of hard settings that will not allow a victory unless the user is either quite involved or EXTREMELY LUCKY (and before you say luck shouldn't matter, right, I'll draw perfect hands everytime at poker against you and we'll see who wins. Or play most jrpg or a good number of rpg).
 
Majesty 1 is all about tending for your heroes needs. Most of the challenge comes from preparing your heroes for their quests, not sending them out on quests. I will not claim that majesty 1 is a very hard game, because it is not, but if you don't build a decent town, then chances are that you won't be able to win in the "harder" missions.

Oh, and there are missions that you can't win without any intervention (on a consistent basis, because there is always the theoretical chance that you will be incredibly lucky). Legendary heroes springs to mind, and so does the 2 master level missions.

And if this is how the designers thought that the game should work, then it works as intended, and in my mind it works.

As I stated before, the whole selling point of the original was this unique flag system,
It was? Over here it was marketed as a fantasy kingdom sim, and the whole selling point was the fact that you could not directly influence your heroes, but that they had minds of their own.
 
You *do* play the game. It's just that your intervention mainly consists of building up your settlement and the infrastructure associated with supporting those heroes as they do their stuff.

That is playing. And the appreciation of it a matter of taste.

I prefer Majesty like games because they can come naturally with an immense replayability.

Different layouts lead naturally to games developping differently as the game units interactions grow naturally different depending on the layouts.
Very easy to get a scenario play differently through various layouts.

The rewarding side of accepting a back seat, support part. The downside is the APMs decline as players must watch the game ticking, how the interactions developp to take subsequently decisions dictated by the conditions imposed by the game units.

Majority of players do not like that. That is why bringing back Majesty is compromized.

Majesty gameplay works as intended. Too many signs showing that the gameplay was thoroughly thought. At early stages, heroes decline a quest they do not like depending on their perception of danger vs reward, perception declined from their class and intelligence.
As heroes can turn down a quest, the counterparty is obviously a capacity to perform some on their own.

Majesty was of course not perfect. That is why long time players want a sequel. Heroes turning down a quest fades away too fast in Majesty as the board gets crowded with levelled up heroes.

People wanting a game not working as design should take a look at Mass Effect 2. The game is supposed to allow the player to experiment a suicide mission run, inspired by movies Dirty dozen. Yet the gameplay is normalized to a no casuality outcome. Meaning that the first run usually end with players losing three, two, one or zero members of their team. Very far from what is expected from a suicide mission. And the various elements in the game showed that the developpers intended otherwise and utterly failed on this point.
 
Wow would my Game Design teacher have a field trip on your ass. "You can play any game the way you want but the question is if the game plays as intended. Majesty does not." Seriously? No emerging gameplay, no multiple interpretation of a common media, no art without design, and on top of that you claim to know what the creators were thinking. Wow.

You can play bad games any way you like, interpret them differently and enjoy them but they still either work as intended or don't. There are such things as bad games and good games. I do know what the creators were thinking because in the run-up to the release of the game it was previewed multiple times in magazines. Also I'm not saying that you don't have to get involved, you do, in the sense you need to manage your city well. My gripe with Majesty lies purely with the flag system being unneccesary. It's just a pretty major gripe.

It was? Over here it was marketed as a fantasy kingdom sim, and the whole selling point was the fact that you could not directly influence your heroes, but that they had minds of their own.

It was marketed as a fantasy kingdom sim to the extent that it's subtitle was, "The Fantasy Kingdom Sim" but as you say you whole selling point was the fact that your heroes had minds of their own... and that you used the flag system to influence them. For example the PC Gamer UK review called it "The Worlds First Capitalist Fantasy Game", or something like that. The focus was clearly on the bounties. Even in the run-up to the release of Majesty 2 one of the main selling points was the "indirect control" of heroes.

It makes sense, you build up a lovely fantasy town that hopefully earns some money and then use that money to get the independent-minded heroes to do your bidding. It's a great idea for a game. It just doesn't work like that in the original game is what I'm saying. I find it interesting that the most aggressive defenders of Majesty don't appear to have played it since back in the day or much at all. Well just to remind everyone the importance in Majesty is really on the placement of your buildings and the order and speed you build them and recruit heroes. One day you'll look up and notice that your heroes have, of their own accord, uncovered half the map. Soon enough you've researched everything and your heroes are cleaning up the map for you. At this point yes you could set a bounty to get rid of that last haunted castle or whatever but has it up until this point been a challenging aspect of the gameplay? No it hasn't, and I highly doubt the developers intended the flag system to be used for a laugh in the final stages of the game. Compare that to Majesty 2 where having 400 gold to target that neighbouring snakes nest in the early days might very well be a matter of life and death, or where having 1000 gold to have your heroes rally around and defend your townhall against the goblin hordes is imperative. As someone who wants to play a part in victory beyond just constructing buildings and recruiting I obviously prefer the latter method. It's what attracted me to Majesty and what has only been realised well in Majesty 2.

As stated in my original post there are things I prefer about the original Majesty and often I will go back to play it for those reasons. Unfortunately I always find myself getting frustrated at my heroes doing everything for me. I want to be able to set explore flags and tell them to destroy that monsters lair. I want to be in a situation where I must make a tough decision on whether to research a new spell or set that bounty. Yes, I could play it like that anyway and pretend that my heroes aren't about to do it all themselves anyway, but I'm not that desperate for games to enjoy, I can just as easily play a game that genuinely provides such dilemnas. This thread is about comparing Majesty with Majesty 2 and that is one reason I prefer the latter. Whatever it is that those who still play (and I mean still play, not the ones remembering it as some perfect gem but not quite sure how it played) and enjoy the original Majesty get out of it exactly I'm not sure. Maybe some people just like being there to provide better swords, potions, entertainment etc for their heroes and letting them go at it. It's just not my idea of fun that's all.
 
I won't argue that build order & building placement really is the most important aspect of Majesty, because it is. But I would still like to see my heroes win on their own on the harder maps... which they don't.
I take it that you never actually tried to let your heroes clean maps like Legendary heroes, The Siege, The Day of Reckoning or the two master level maps on their own, because unless you are really lucky, they won't be able to do this. The easy maps are, well, easy, and your heroes are capable of doing everything on their own, the advanced maps are generally speaking rather easy as well, and if you are very patient, your heroes can clean those as well, for most of the expert maps, your argument is not really true, and for certain expert maps, it is nearly impossible for your heroes to do everything on their own.

It was marketed as a fantasy kingdom sim to the extent that it's subtitle was, "The Fantasy Kingdom Sim" but as you say you whole selling point was the fact that your heroes had minds of their own... and that you used the flag system to influence them.
They never even mentioned the flags (or influencing your heroes) in their marketing over here... what they focused on were the fact that the heroes had minds of their own, and that they would grow stronger with time.
 
I wouldn't say being lucky has anything to do with it because it's not as if the heroes just stumble upon a lair and decide to attack it, they will actively seek to wipe them out, especially paladins and rangers. Sometimes to avoid this I don't build paladins and rangers at all but then I realise I'm bending over backwards to make the game provide me with a reason to use one of its own mechanics and it feels pointless. This isn't an issue I feel nearly as passionate about as some of you do so I won't harp on about it, just wanted to offer my opinion, but lets say for the sake of argument that on those particularly massive expert maps it is necessary to use flags, it's still a very tiny portion of the game. Once again I'd reference Majesty 2 as an example of the mechanic being consistently required from start to finish. I've always said that the funny thing about Majesty is that the maps are either easy or extremely hard. There is rarely a balanced struggle. You either get wiped out quickly or survive and eventually clear the map. That's where the challenge comes from in my opinion, making sure you don't get overrun. Once you've established yourself it's pretty hard to lose, it then just becomes a matter of cleaning house. I think that's why in Majesty 2 they frequently used boss characters with insane amounts of hitpoints, like it was an attempt to provide late game challenge.

I'd be interested to hear what fans of the original Majesty who still play it enjoy about it so much because I frequently do try and enjoy it myself but can't for the reasons already stated. The heroes are more interesting and the music is better than in the sequel but I feel like the game almost resents me being present halfway through and is happy to chug along by itself.
 
Heroes able to fend for themselves reduces forcefully the number of times a flag has to be used as the player is here to fill the holes.

Maybe with efforts and thoughts, beating all the maps without using flags is possible.

Quite a stretch to state this situation as the standard gameplay coming up while playing Majesty.

Most players during their first walkthroughs with Majesty would use a flag to repell a troll attack on a marketplace. Using laying out to counter this kind of attacks requires experience that can only be acquired by playing the game intensively.

Early scenarios cleaned out without much flag intervention by inexperienced players: okay, totally possible.

Later scenarious carried out only by layout, with no flags put here and there: only by experienced players with a pack of experience. And it is a challenge in itself, not the default situation.

The default situation is players using flags to change the priority hierarchy of heroes.

The player who managed his/her first walkthrough without using a flag at all belongs to a tiny minority.

Discussing fancies instead of facts is worn out.
 
That's exactly what happens. The easiest way to prove this is to choose a Freestyle game with the largest map possible and make it as hard as you like. Your heroes will eventually do everything themselves. Maybe some like that but I don't. I'd like to actually be playing a game not watching one.

As DorthLous noted, there are some settings on NE which makes this impossible. Frozen Wrath setting (whatever sends Ice Dragons and Ice Golems? at you) is one which I have never beaten, using all hero variations, at whatever the starting level of 10,000 gold is. I'm not sure how it is with the regular Majesty settings though. I haven't been able to try it yet...
 
Gotta love the beautiful strawman.

"I find it interesting that the most aggressive defenders of Majesty don't appear to have played it since back in the day or much at all."

Oh really? Got proof backing that complete wild accusation? 'cuz I got proof of the contrary for both me and Alfryd and I'm pretty sure most if not all the others in this conversation also have played quite recently. But I guess it's easier to slay a windmill than a dragon, heh?
 
Proof? Impossible. Evidence? Plenty, since a lot of people don't seem to know how the game actually plays. Whatever, I've said my piece and all you have to do is play the game to see my point crystal clear.
 
Point made clear? Absolutely not.

Well just to remind everyone the importance in Majesty is really on the placement of your buildings and the order and speed you build them and recruit heroes. One day you'll look up and notice that your heroes have, of their own accord, uncovered half the map. Soon enough you've researched everything and your heroes are cleaning up the map for you. At this point yes you could set a bounty to get rid of that last haunted castle or whatever but has it up until this point been a challenging aspect of the gameplay? No it hasn't, and I highly doubt the developers intended the flag system to be used for a laugh in the final stages of the game. Compare that to Majesty 2 where having 400 gold to target that neighbouring snakes nest in the early days might very well be a matter of life and death, or where having 1000 gold to have your heroes rally around and defend your townhall against the goblin hordes is imperative. As someone who wants to play a part in victory beyond just constructing buildings and recruiting I obviously prefer the latter method. It's what attracted me to Majesty and what has only been realised well in Majesty 2.

That is quite a mishmash. And absolutely unclear.

For Majesty 2, the reference points to early stages in a game.

For Majesty, the reference point is obscure. It refers to final stages in a game when technology is fully researched, the last haunted castle.

From what I experimented, both games suffer from a collapse in challenges during a game. Always a breaking point on a map, when victory becomes assured. I remember underlining that in Majesty 2, as soon as the heroes turn level 7-8, the kingdom ended to be dangerous to them (assessment made before a certain patch)

So once again, the difference is not on collapse in challenge during a game. The difference lies in the player's capacity to control the pace of resolution of a map.
In Majesty, the heroes might solve the map by themselves without waiting for a green by the player.
In Majesty 2, as long as the player does not give the final order, the map is not solved.

That is why I did not support the continue option in Majesty 2. It made no sense. You can squeeze as long as you want. In Majesty, the objectives could be met before some player's personal objectives, leaving the player with something to perform, as turtling your way out of a map is limited in Majesty.

Up to the collapse point, flags emerge naturally as a consistent game feature.

A reminder on how things truly work.

As a sidenote, the problem is framed in favour of Majesty 2, with that story of life and death decisions.
 
For Majesty 2, the reference points to early stages in a game.

For Majesty, the reference point is obscure. It refers to final stages in a game when technology is fully researched, the last haunted castle.

To illustate the fact that flags are consistently necessary in Majesty 2 and not in Majesty.

From what I experimented, both games suffer from a collapse in challenges during a game. Always a breaking point on a map, when victory becomes assured. I remember underlining that in Majesty 2, as soon as the heroes turn level 7-8, the kingdom ended to be dangerous to them (assessment made before a certain patch)

So once again, the difference is not on collapse in challenge during a game. The difference lies in the player's capacity to control the pace of resolution of a map.
In Majesty, the heroes might solve the map by themselves without waiting for a green by the player.
In Majesty 2, as long as the player does not give the final order, the map is not solved.

I agree with all this. I even said I think they tried to address the tipping balance issue in Majesty 2 with incredibly tough bosses. Which I think failed for the record, it was just a nuisance.

That is why I did not support the continue option in Majesty 2. It made no sense. You can squeeze as long as you want. In Majesty, the objectives could be met before some player's personal objectives, leaving the player with something to perform, as turtling your way out of a map is limited in Majesty.

The continue option was a nice touch but not something I'd ever use so I haven't given it a second thought. This probably highlights a difference between myself and those who enjoy Majesty. I could never continue a map after I'd beaten it because all I could do is build more stuff and kill wandering monsters. For me there has to be some mission, some point where the game goes "well done you won" and then I can move on. Clearly many people enjoy having those personal objectives you mentioned. Not that I never play games just for the enjoyment of playing, Zeus: Master of Olympus and its expansion Poseidon: Master of Atlantis are examples of games I will build a city just for the sake of it and with no objectives but in those kinds of games challenges arrive naturally from the problems of city planning.

Up to the collapse point, flags emerge naturally as a consistent game feature.

It's a consistent game feature in the sense that it's there but is it necessary? Well you know my thoughts on that.

As a sidenote, the problem is framed in favour of Majesty 2, with that story of life and death decisions.

Well it would be because I prefer Majesty 2 but those are examples of the kind of situations where you might want to flag in those games. This entire thread is about comparing Majesty to Majesty 2 which I did although I didn't mean to start writing essays in defence of my opinion. I only came here the other day to see what was happening with Monster Kingdoms and noticed someone had responded to my post. This isn't exactly something you can convince me I'm wrong about because it's what I've discovered from my own experience of playing the game and besides the fact that you wrote, "In Majesty, the heroes might solve the map by themselves without waiting for a green by the player" means you agree with what I'm saying. Because that is literally the point I made and the reason I prefer Majesty 2.

I hate arguing on forums and all I can do now is keep reiterating my opinion over and over and being told I'm wrong or that I'm wrong but actually right. I mean it's not like I don't wish the heroes were less pro-active and the flagging system was more useful. I'd love to agree with what you're all saying but it's simply contray to my own experiences. So on that note, while my opinion still stands and for the reasons I've already repeated, I'm done with this thread. I've answered it's original query and nothing more productive can come from this debate.
 
No it hasn't, and I highly doubt the developers intended the flag system to be used for a laugh in the final stages of the game.

That is the reverse. It is impossible for the developpers not to expect the flag system to be useless at some points, including the final stage of a scenario.

The developpers wanted the heroes to display self-sufficiency.
The developpers wanted the heroes to be able to grow stronger.

The normal consequence: as a scenario progresses, heroes become able to tackle bigger and bigger "quests". This includes to a certain extent final goals. It cannot be otherwise.

The success of a player in the game is measured by the capacity to allow heroes to reach the point they are able to clean the map by themselves.

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Life or death choices: framing the problem.

Setting A: game including units unaware of and unable to strategize to complete short-term/mid-term/long-term goals.

Setting B: game including units aware of and able to strategize to complete short-term/mid-term/long-term goals.

In setting A, every decision taken by the player are life or death decisions as the units cannot put anything by themselves. Decisions only differ in their magnitude. A wave of critters will take longer to bring death if the player does not decide on ending the threat.

Setting B reduces or negates the number of life or death decisions. This by design.

Most games include now short-term goal (self-preservation) handling.
Majesty's heroes are capable in short-term goals and arguably mid-term goals.
Majesty 2 leans strongly towards setting A.

The trouble is that games for which setting B was chosen are intrinsically weaker on the life or death decision. Their evaluation should not be seen through this scope but whether or not they manage to get their unit aware of and able to tackle the various goals.
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Flag necessity: back in the days, when arcades were still lively, one rule was popular with Street Fighter: one coin, no block. It was nothing more than bragging and showing off. Playing with blocks was more efficient.
Similarly, fact that it is possible to complete Super Mario Bros 2 by skipping most of the levels does not hint at a design flaw.
A lot of FPS can be completed using one weapon only (like grenades for example)
It is possible to complete Silent Hill without using the flash light. Serious business as Silent Hill fear building up mechanics rely on the flash light: monsters are attracted by the light and you cant see in the dark, which presses the use of the flash light.

All these examples are features rendered non necessary by skill. They are not the standard gameplay.

Same for Majesty. It is possible to bypass the flag system but using it makes progression much smoother.

An example of failed design is for example Mass Effect 2's soldier class. The manual states the soldier dominates the battlefield by the capacity to force the opponent in the gunfight he chooses. The analysis of the soldier's arsenal and special abilities confirms the point. He has long/short range weapons, slow/fast rate weapons, capacity to freeze time and rushing from one cover to another.

The trouble is the natural gameplay that emerges is the soldier using his AR and sometimes the sniper rifle and spamming the freeze time ability. When the player tries to take advantage of the soldier's other aptitudes, it makes the game more difficult. Not easier.
That is failed design.

To a lesser extent, in Majesty 2, on no boss maps, it is possible to build only rogues without a loss in efficiency. Which is a serious issue.

Using flags in Majesty makes the game easier. Non using them is possible on a number of maps but it is more difficult.

They are not necessary but their use is highly recommanded. To be compared to ME 2 soldier for which using only the AR is highly recommanded.
 
Darn forum crashed while I was writing my first attempt at this post. This is the abridge version of that post.

I wouldn't say being lucky has anything to do with it because it's not as if the heroes just stumble upon a lair and decide to attack it, they will actively seek to wipe them out, especially paladins and rangers.
While it is true that several hero classes will actively seek out lairs and destroy them, there are also several levels where this won't be enough. A lone hero will often either not be able to handle the monsters on the way to the lair/around the lair/that pops out of the lair when it is destroyed, on its own. Loosing a high level hero can be quite devastating, at least in some of the harder levels. This can of course be alleviated by spam-healing your hero, but this is a very inefficient way of playing, and is simply another form of active play.


Your need for active flag use will depend on how good you are at managing your town. The more skilled a player is at building a town that can handle itself, the less you need to rely on flags. I still find flags to be important early game to get the economy running. Trading posts are an important part of the economy, and you need to clean out the area around them, or else they will be overrun by monsters (unless you spend a whole lot of money on guard towers).

In the end, I suspect that we play Majesty for different reasons. For me, Majesty 1 is an excellent relaxation game. I play it to unwind more than anything else, and for that, few games can actually beat majesty.


I agree with all this. I even said I think they tried to address the tipping balance issue in Majesty 2 with incredibly tough bosses. Which I think failed for the record, it was just a nuisance.
I totally agree with you. Bosses were not really hard, all you had to do was sit and cast spells on your heroes (mainly healing), and they would be able to beat the boss. The fact that they could take so much damage made them tedious and boring more than anything else.