Desirability of Potential Brides

[unmerged(7537)]

I made a thread a while back concerning hiding stats for future wives, and it's similar to what you are talking about. Basically, my goal was the get out of the "searching for stats" and instead consider "political opportunities, traits, etc" for marriage. I think the long discussion basically boiled down to.. Showing and searching stats for people that want that, but also provide political and other non-statistical opportunities and reasons, such as diplomatic arranged marriages. I do agree, that there should be other reasons to marry aside from stats, and I think due to the time period the 'arranged marriage' to secure alliances is a vital one.

Of course, it would be a great idea if political opportunities and traits actually mattered in the game. As it was with CK1, it mattered little whether your wife was the daughter of your liege, your neighbour, or some half-forgotten count half a map away.

 

[Xain]

1. Noble Rank: King's daughters are going to be prime marriage candidates even if the king is long dead or the bride is ugly. There should be a prestige boost to the husband for marrying a woman of higher rank, and there should be some pretty big modifiers drawing potential husbands to the daughters and sisters of the more important men of the world.

2. Beauty and Charisma: The bride's personal traits should definitely play into her desirability somewhat. If your king has just married the medieval equivalent of Helen of Troy, then he should get a bonus amount of prestige equal to all the high-fives he'd be getting.

3. Dowry: A potential bride's "huge tracts of land" should be as great an incentive to the potential groom as, ahem, her other "huge tracts of land."

4. Proximity: Marrying your near neighbor's daughter should be much, much more common than going to the ends of the earth. Those should still be able to happen on occasion, but first your kingdom and the distant one need to have had some sort of reason for such contact. Royal marriages were political alliances, after all.

If a bride has all of these traits, there should then be considerable incentives to marry her. One excellent example is Eleanor of Aquitaine. She had the whole package: physically beautiful and charming, the prestigious ex-Queen of France, bordering Henry II's own lands, and bringing the whole Duchy of Aquitaine and considerable wealth to the table. These incentives should also show up in some sort of menu-- "most desirable/eligible local brides" perhaps, so that you don't have to wade through every single female in the world.

It seems very reasonable.
Nevertheless, I'd underestimate the "charm" factor, because, as others have already stated, marriages in Middle Age were mostly a socio-political issue. Then, it is true that beauty IS a factor.

And I would add a "skillfullness" carachteristic (defined as the average of all stats) because, even if is not realistic to search, as we all did in CKI, the single stats to, e.g., find that skilled steward who's missing in our realm, it is, on the other hand, true that a skilled and well-educated bride will have a better reputation than a totally inept one.

And, as someone said, it is sad, but the trait "virginity" should be included too - rulers would be less likely to marry a widow, regardless how young, skilled and powerful she might be. The sole exception could be, if female inheritance is implemented, in the case of a widow who inherits of a realm.

Of course that's not how it really worked. Parents would carefully consider the marriages of their offspring. To make the system more realistic, one could think of:
- pre-arranged marriages, i.e. the possibility of marriage contracts before both have turned 16, to be confirmed by the parents after this date (this was already proposed in another thread), and
- an official "courtship period", lasting some months or a year after the bride turned 16, during which marriage requests could be submitted and compared by the parents, resulting in a decision at the end of the period (this idea is very much like the "marriage agent" proposal, only the other way round).

Great idea, especially for the "courtship period". That will definitely stop the "first arrived, first served" system, who was quite obnoxious.

Well, if we want to have an important Duke's daughter have more status than a minor King's daughter, it can simply be based on the power & prestige of her father; although I'd also think distance should matter. Saxony may be more important than Navarra overall, but if you're a Catalan count, Saxony's a long way away.

I agree with ZanThrax too : there will be no need to rebalance the "historical importance" of kingdoms and duchies, since "prestige of the father" and "distance" can replace it quite well in game dynamics. n fact, it is maybe true than a count of Flanders "counts" more than a petty Duke of Orkney, but if my ruler is Count of Argyll, he might be politically more interested in marrying his neighbour's daughter rather than a far away beautiful and rich Dutch princess.

Being able to set terms for a marriage would also be cool. "If my daughter marries your second son, I will provide a dowry of 2400 pieces of gold. Within one year, you will make your son (my daughters husband-to-be) count of X (and duke of Y). If my daugher marries your eldest son (and heir), I will provide a dowry of 3500 pieces of gold and join you in your current war against Z." etc. etc.

Well, including marriages in diplomacy, that would be a major gain in the gameplay. But, still, I think it would be difficult to implement it in a Paradox game's typical diplomacy system. So I don't think it will be ever realised.

someone [believed to be] descended from Charlemagne or Riurik higher status than someone not; and so on.

This final remark of Calgacus leads me to another question : if CKII will be, as it seems, more dynasty-oriented than country-oriented, I suppose there will be an attribute such as "dynasty prestige". That shall definitely count on marriage system, both as a critierium of bride selection and as an issue of a good marriage (if our ruler manages to marry a high-ranked wife, his whole dynasty will benefit of a prestige bonus).

For example, if a cadet branch of Hauteville family holds the county of Taranto, and even if they're cut off every succession line outside the one as Counts of Taranto, a marriage with an Hauteville should be a peace of cake for every Italian or Norman ruler. And if my count of Corsica manages to marry the daughter of the Duke of Milan, that will mean a prestige bonus for the whole Orbetenghi family, and not just for the Corsica branch.

 

[Checco]

Definitely a 'berothing' system could be used, to avoid 'first came, first-served' scenarios when the bride comes to age.

As someone else said, marriages were political deals, so the bride's beauty should be very little influential opposing to her dowry, the alliance with her family and the prestige coming from it (it's not like each and every nobleman had openly a number of lovers from 0 to 50 according to his personal tastes, brides were used to make heirs, there are even historical documents where husbands -and sometimes wives- claimed that 'he slept with his wife for the only purpose of making heirs, and stopped as soon as he could', especially if for any reason they despised each other, like it happened with marriages between very different ranks of nobility).

Her beauty could be a very interesting factor to trigger events where the husband goes seeking lovers or stays faithful, but after having played Medieval II Total War my opinion is that the more Paradox works in a different way, the better.

(I might be biased by the fact I started playing a lot of Paradox games after I was greatly disappointed with abovementioned MIITW, I write it for honesty's sake).

 

[Nick B II]

Definitely a 'berothing' system could be used, to avoid 'first came, first-served' scenarios when the bride comes to age.

As someone else said, marriages were political deals, so the bride's beauty should be very little influential opposing to her dowry, the alliance with her family and the prestige coming from it (it's not like each and every nobleman had openly a number of lovers from 0 to 50 according to his personal tastes, brides were used to make heirs, there are even historical documents where husbands -and sometimes wives- claimed that 'he slept with his wife for the only purpose of making heirs, and stopped as soon as he could', especially if for any reason they despised each other, like it happened with marriages between very different ranks of nobility).

That doesn't mean it should be non-factor. Especially for the Barons, who are not realistically going to land a princess with a massive dowry.

It should probably be one of the lowest factors (equivalent to a father having 25 more prestige or something), but it should be there.

Nick

 

[RedRooster81]

That doesn't mean it should be non-factor. Especially for the Barons, who are not realistically going to land a princess with a massive dowry.

It should probably be one of the lowest factors (equivalent to a father having 25 more prestige or something), but it should be there.

Nick

The opposite could also be desirable. Depending on how the game will work, it could be just as desirable for a father to try and marry his daughter to a powerful-to-be prince etc. rather than just sitting around waiting for this agent to turn up.

This would require that the game actually provides real influence and that relationships between counties/duchies etc. really means something - not just a 10 point positive/negative with some distant count.

Being able to set terms for a marriage would also be cool. "If my daughter marries your second son, I will provide a dowry of 2400 pieces of gold. Within one year, you will make your son (my daughters husband-to-be) count of X (and duke of Y). If my daugher marries your eldest son (and heir), I will provide a dowry of 3500 pieces of gold and join you in your current war against Z." etc. etc.

That way your daughter (or possibly son) won't end up being some anonymous courtier in a back-water duchy, or countess in a ruined county waiting to be usurped by the overlord.

I like the idea of marriage contracts and dowries. For something cool (and a look into 15th century Iberian marriage laws) see http://www.diaspora.uiuc.edu/news1206/news1206.html#2 This is Fernando of Aragon and Isabel of Castilla's marriage contract. Notice the stipulations.

But more commonly, you should be able to offer baronies (i.e., castles, etc.) or counties to the bride's property.

The concept in general is towards "equal" marriages, for which parents (and their peers) should be the gatekeepers. My general CK MO was to marry the heir to a female ruler or an heiress; younger sons should marry within the realm.

Something else that irked me a bit in CK1 was that all couples were patrilocal; i.e., all brides (except rulers in their own right) lived with their husbands' families, as did any children not fostered out. But that is an aside that might be too complicated to program in.

 

[SaberHRE]

Yep all these ideas sound very reasonable. I absolutely HATED it when some duke in Ireland stole a potential bride in germany from my Kaiser of the German reich.

Someone mentioned betrothal as a mechanism to avoid "first come, first serve" which is excellent.

 

[the_hdk]

I like the things mentioned in 1st post and a betrothal system. You could wait a year (or more) and see what offers you got and than choose one

but how would you rank beauty? would certain possible parts get a +0,1 or a -0,1? for instance a small nose a +0,3 and a crooked one -0,2?

 

[Hamanu]

I love the rank and status idea. Let me give an example. Matthias Corvinus, the King of Hungary in the 15th century was desperate to find a "bride of high repute" but he was turned down by the Polish Jagiellonians, the Brandenburgian margaves and by Emperor Frederick III. They considered a King whose grandfather was of lowly Vlach (Rumanian) and unknown descent, far too below their daughters' status to be a suitable match, regardless of his royal title. In the end he managed to snatch an Aragonese princess due to the alliance he had with the King of Naples, but his primary political aim backfired for years and resulted in a war with the emperor and the subsequent conquest of Austria. He never could forgive Frederick for not letting him have Kunigunde's hand.

Also, since there was a lot of new nobility created in the 15th century the "tournament requirement" was firmly enforced, meaning that only those who could prove to be fully noble for 4 generations (all ancestors of noble blood) could take part in tournaments.

The same could be applied for marriages in CK II. Marrying a daughter of higher rank than your own should bring more prestige, marrying low could decrease prestige and, perhaps, even lead to disputes of succession. Sure, your father was the king, but your mother was of "barely noble blood" In a way, just as there is a tier system (kings, dukes, counts), the brides could be organized along the same lines with consequences in prestige, events etc.

Therefore, marrying a very wealthy patrician girl could bring in a lot of cash, but could decrease your overall standing. On the other hand, a count winning the hand of the king's daughter could rise meteorically

 

[SaberHRE]

a count winning the hand of the king's daughter could rise meteorically

Agreed, it will be interesting what kind of things you'd have to do to marry a king's daughter, if she will be offered to the local nobility instead of international royalties.

And if a daughter is offered to a duke or count, he has to receive some special favours from his father-in-law that will help his career rise.

Look at the Staufens. The rose from Swabian nobodies to first dukes of Swabia and then ultimately Kings of Germany and Holy roman emperors. Just through one successful marriage...

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

The dowry is BASIC. Remember Henry II, getting the Vexin as dowry, for example.

As for the Staufens, the marriage is consequence of them helping the Emperor against the Duke of Swabia, allied with Henry the Lion. Marriages should be ways to get power but also rewards. The King of England had a curious capacity: he was the keeper of the noble widows and orphan noblewomen. He kept them safe and gave them estates, and when a servant of the King was to be rewarded, the King granted him the hand of one of those "flowers of England". They all had interesting dowries, usually their dead husband/father's estates. William Marshal began his raise to total power thanks to his marriage to the Lady of Striguil, who was given to him by these means. Also, Isabelle de Claire gave him the Earldom of Pembroke.

 

[Nesrie]

I like the ideas, although it shouldn't just apply to brides. Since CK2 has female inheritance, it should be spouses in general.

 

[Rivus]

I'm concerned that changes to marriage systems make the process too complicated. I think that:

1. Like how peace treaties are dependent on a war-score, marriage proposals should depend on some kind of scoring.

2. "Jure Uroxis" should be an optional component of the marriage proposal. If you select it, the father of the potential bride may have more reason to deny your request. i.e. Jure Uroxis will reduce the proposal's score.

3. There should be other ways to change the score. For example, the difference in station between both parties should be considered - you'll find it harder to deny the marriage proposal of your liege. Culture does play a role as well (If we have a "family-of-cultures" implement in CK2 then marrying within your own culture-family should be easier), as does religion, personal rivalries/friendships, religious sanction (excom? heretic?), prestige, dowry, even ceding land, etc.

4. What about a divorce option? Do we need something else other than killing the wife? How historical is that (my knowledge is limited in this, sorry)?

5. Maybe there should be a way to determine if a lady is "open for courtship" (e.g. typically during early adulthood).

 

[RedRooster81]

I'm concerned that changes to marriage systems make the process too complicated. I think that:

1. Like how peace treaties are dependent on a war-score, marriage proposals should depend on some kind of scoring.

2. "Jure Uroxis" should be an optional component of the marriage proposal. If you select it, the father of the potential bride may have more reason to deny your request. i.e. Jure Uroxis will reduce the proposal's score.

3. There should be other ways to change the score. For example, the difference in station between both parties should be considered - you'll find it harder to deny the marriage proposal of your liege. Culture does play a role as well (If we have a "family-of-cultures" implement in CK2 then marrying without your own culture-family should be easier), as does religion, personal rivalries/friendships, religious sanction (excom? heretic?), prestige, dowry, even land, etc.

4. What about a divorce option? Do we need something else other than killing the wife? How historical is that (my knowledge is limited in this, sorry)?

5. Maybe there should be a way to determine if a lady is "open for courtship" (e.g. typically during early adulthood).

I was working up my own list, but yours is more to the point, so I will instead comment on yours. Divorce was uncommon, though not entirely unknown. The most famous case is likely Louis VII's divorce of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who would have united with the royal domain the duchies of Aquitaine, Poitou, and Gascony, which amounted at the time to something like a third of modern France. Instead, she married Henry II, which brought into the world Richard the Lionhearted and his brothers.

I am also interested in inter-religious marriages. Provided that you allow non-Christians whom you conquer to keep their titles, would it be possible to marry with them? This occurred over time in the Iberian states and would likely have happened in North Africa had Sicily and later Aragon been more successful in making war there.

 

[Rivus]

I was working up my own list, but yours is more to the point, so I will instead comment on yours. Divorce was uncommon, though not entirely unknown. The most famous case is likely Louis VII's divorce of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who would have united with the royal domain the duchies of Aquitaine, Poitou, and Gascony, which amounted at the time to something like a third of modern France. Instead, she married Henry II, which brought into the world Richard the Lionhearted and his brothers.

I am also interested in inter-religious marriages. Provided that you allow non-Christians whom you conquer to keep their titles, would it be possible to marry with them? This occurred over time in the Iberian states and would likely have happened in North Africa had Sicily and later Aragon been more successful in making war there.

I just realised I said something to the effect that marrying outside your culture should be easier. Whoops... fixed.

I think Conversion would be an interesting proposal option... it's not uncommon I think, and sounds like politically astute. Ultimately it depends on how much focus Paradox wants to put into marriages in CK2. I think it's definitely an area that can add lots of flavor to the game... so hopefully the whole process and options for marriage are fleshed out

 

[RedRooster81]

I just realised I said something to the effect that marrying outside your culture should be easier. Whoops... fixed.

I think Conversion would be an interesting proposal option... it's not uncommon I think, and sounds like politically astute. Ultimately it depends on how much focus Paradox wants to put into marriages in CK2. I think it's definitely an area that can add lots of flavor to the game... so hopefully the whole process and options for marriage are fleshed out

I was wondering about that one. Christian thought, based on the Epistles of St. Paul of Tarsus, was that marrying a non-Christian was warranted in some cases because it could lead to conversion, and in any case the children should be raised Christian.

Regarding both culturally and religiously diverse realms (e.g., early Norman England, Sicily, Iberia, Kingdom of Jerusalem), the basic choice was to marry into a local noble family or to marry someone from a more central area like France or the HRE. If #1 is taken, you are focusing on integrating the conquering population with the indigenous nobility. Good for local relations and maybe how your subjects see you. (The king is marrying one of our own...) Key example that comes to mind is Henry I Beauclerc, the third son of William the Bastard, who married the niece of Edgar Atheling, the Anglo-Saxon claimant to the throne who had sought refuge in Scotland. So in this case, relations with Scotland improved, the subject Saxon population felt a closer tie to the new foreign dynasty, and so forth. The Normans were less than happy with Henry I, however, so in part to ease this his bride changed her name from Edith to Matilda.

The other choice was to seek a foreign bride, likely part and parcel of a military alliance. We see this in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, where ties of blood with the ruling houses of Sicily and the HRE were sought in order to secure military aid against Egypt and the Syrian emirates (anyone who tried to conquer the Holy Land in CK1 knows what a pain having Mosul, Medina, AND Egypt on your back at the same time could be). It was also a concern of monarchs like Corvinus, as the OP noted, who sought to marry into the emperor's family and so bolster his family's prestige while securing a strong military ally.

 

[Hamanu]

On the subject of divorce: Divorces were an altogether common thing in the Middle Ages, with a caveat: they were not called divorces but annulments. Frequently, since many dynasties interbred over generations (just look at the Spanish Habsburg family tree) the potential groom and bride were too closely related to qualify for a Christian marriage. Then they'd ask for a papal dispensation to be able to marry and if a king wanted to divorce his wife, he would ask the pope to annul the marriage "due to pre-exising 'technical obstacles'".

In a way marrying your cousin included as a bonus the ability to later remember this relation (and burn the dispensation ) and have the marriage annulled.

Or they could claim that the marriage was never consummated (which was a legal reasoning for a christian divorce), or that the wife was not a virgin etc.

I think it would be a great addition to the RPG aspect of the game if one were to require dispensation from the pope to

a) allow marriage between close (4 generations) relatives
b) legalizing bastards
c) annulling marriages and, consequently, bastardizing heirs

Since CK focuses on interpersonal relations, it would be great if the papacy had a bigger role to play than merely excommunication

 

[unmerged(133356)]

The last thing I need in CK2 is more Pope...


In CK1, I found that some of my best advisors were neices and courtier's daughters that conventional wisdom said I should be marrying off and shipping somewhere else. I ended up using marriages as a way to dump the useless kids on other kingdoms -- female and male useless kids.

My most effective and loyal family of vassals produced a second son that married my third king's first daughter, and they came to my court, and ended up being two the best advisors I ever had, and their descendants became a sort of unofficial second royal family.

In CK2, it would be great, as others have suggested, to be able to arrange marriages -- I routinely found myself having to keep a very close eye on all the soon-to-be eligible kids around the kingdom to make sure I wasn't letting any terrible marriages occur. And damnit, I want to be able to outlaw marriages that would result in inbreeding.

 

[Hamanu]

Well, I'm a professional medieval historian and the reason I love paradox titles is because they are or strive to be, historical simulations, not fantasy ones. The pope was the key political figure in the middle ages and I'd like to see his role increased.

As for inbreeding, it was a fact of life, but only in higher political structures. Peasants did not intermarry, only higher nobility did for political gain and with papal dispensation. Those are the facts

And being able to marry your cousin only with papal dispensation (and/or to annul marriages in general) would greatly increase the importance of piety and/or relationship with the pope himself. It certainly would widen the scope of the game, IMO.

Heck, you might even be able to block marriages of your adversaries if you're on better terms with the pope than your opponent

also, for marriages in general, it was considered common for vassals to seek permission from their liege to marry. Thus, you could block your vassals from inbreeding. (though they wouldn't look upon it favorably)

 

[Ben Music]

The same could be applied for marriages in CK II. Marrying a daughter of higher rank than your own should bring more prestige, marrying low could decrease prestige and, perhaps, even lead to disputes of succession. Sure, your father was the king, but your mother was of "barely noble blood" In a way, just as there is a tier system (kings, dukes, counts), the brides could be organized along the same lines with consequences in prestige, events etc.

Therefore, marrying a very wealthy patrician girl could bring in a lot of cash, but could decrease your overall standing. On the other hand, a count winning the hand of the king's daughter could rise meteorically

I very much like this idea! Marrying the daughter of a very prestigious person should bring you some of that prestige, as well as other potential benefits. For example, in the original CK a Duke or King took a prestige hit if their sons didn't have titles. Perhaps the something similar could apply to the husbands of daughters.

 

[unmerged(133356)]

It's a tricky balance between "historically accurate simulation" and "go read a history book".

If I play as Croatia and unite the Balkans under my rule, that's not historically accurate -- should the game allow it to happen?