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Hello everyone, I'm Tegus, one of the programmers working on Crusader
Kings II. Welcome to the fifth dev diary for CK2 and the first one written
by me. In today's dev diary I'm going to talk a bit about the map and why
we've chosen to implement a new one in CK2.

As you all know, in our games the map is an important tool for both
displaying information and setting the mood of the game. In HoI3 we had a
grayish map that we felt was appropriate for a war game. We took this map
and altered it slightly when making Victoria 2, but this time the map was
drawn with vivid colors to portray the progress of the era. The next game to
use the map was Divine Wind because we all felt that EU3 was in need of a
graphical face lift. While this map technology looked good in the
mentioned games, there were certain technological limitations which we
wanted to improve upon or get rid of.

With CK2, we have devoted time to rewrite the graphics code for the map
from scratch. We are back to a pure 3D map similar to the one used in EU3:
Rome. We have visible topology and you will be able to rotate the world
around the way you please. While neither the technology nor the art assets
are in any way final, we do feel that the new map already has great
potential and is a big step in the right direction towards our visual
goals. Hopefully this new tech will also span multiple games, so we
can steadily improve it.

crusader_kings_2_devdiary_5_ss1.jpg

To be fair, if I would describe what we have done with the map so far, it
would just be sentence after sentence of technical mumbo-jumbo, so I'll
spare you the details. Let's instead focus on what visual details that
have been improved and what we want to add before the game is shipped.

We've improved the looks of the water significantly and added refraction
so you can actually see topology under the ocean surface. Aerie has taken
the time to find real-world topology data(although we've exaggerated it
somewhat), it definitely gives a cool feel to the terrain. Borders have
also gotten some love and now use a new system which enables us to make
them much smoother. Much of the previous jaggedness is gone. We've also
begun to implement and test a more detailed lighting model, which we will
continue to improve upon until we release the game. Another cool
feature(which isn't really part of the map) are the units, whose tabards
now show the heraldic flag of the unit leader.

crusader_kings_2_devdiary_5_ss2.jpg

But there are still some things which we're missing. We need trees and
rivers. We need to add province names and realm names, which exist in all
our latest games. I'd like to add more information to borders, so borders
between two realms are colored by the realms' respective colors. There are
of course lots of more things we want to do, but I won't spill the beans
just yet.

crusader_kings_2_devdiary_5_ss3.jpg

All in all, we are very happy with the way the new map is coming along.
Hopefully you will enjoy it as well once you get to play the game!

Fredrik Zetterman, Deluxe programmer, currently working on Crusader Kings
II
 
I noticed a mistake in your second developer screenshot, so I took the liberty of fixing it.
 

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I fear it's you who doesn't understand. The purpose of that shot is to show the new tabard system. Nothing else is done. ALPHA screenshot etc.

I think we can go on with that "no, it is YOU who doesn't understand" for eternity. ;)
If you tell us that it will look completly different at the end - okay, guess we have no other option to trust you and wait & see anyways.

But as I said previously, never before PI's games looked completly different at the end, compared to the first trailers etc.
And you mentioned once how beautiful you find the map already. So you'll have to understand that we fear that your ratio seems to differ from ours in this aspect.

All that we critical minds do, is that we try to alert those who are responsible. If this game should look at the end as frightening as it does now in the first 2 screens, this will be a problem. I can't say for how many, but I predict that it will cost you more than you'll earn by being "rotatable 3D with undersea topography".
I see no logical reason why we should tell you so after the release and not now, a developer should be thankful if he gets such a feedback just in time. I also haven't seen any unpolite or rude comments from our side, but very well some "we better ignore you for your own best" from the developer's side.

Edit: And just for King, as it seems that he didn't understand it yet. I'm all for 3D, I don't mind if the option to rotate is there or not. I just don't like what I have seen so far, not at all. So nope, I am NOT against technical evolution.
 
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Who's this 'we', Golwar? Most people here like the map

I didn't say "we all", I said "we critical minds". Don't try to fake what I said. Thx.
Edit: And hereby I don't claim that those who are currently unhappy with the map, are the only ones being able to be critical minds. :D ;)
 
Just to add:

I think the point is rather the final artistic and usefulness appeal of the map, rather than whether it's 3d or 2d.
You can make a 2d map that looks like crap and is extremely hard to use. Or a 3d map that looks like crap and is extremely hard to use.
Or you can make a 2d map that looks brilliant and is most useful. Or a 3d map that looks brilliant and is most useful.
The point is that 2d and 3d are not the issue.
Usefulness and Aesthetic Appeal are!

And presently, judging by the response of this thread, atleast some potential players do not find the map aesthetically pleasing.
Also, there are questions raised about the actual utilitarian value of the map in its present state. (ie how FoW will work)

So at the end of the day: It's not 2d vs 3d, but rather Aesthetics & Utility.
And I sincerely hope/look forward to a CK2 that is most brilliant in both of those categories.
Let 3d come, but let it be as pleasing and useful as 2d was before; In fact, let it better.
 
Until the second half of the 2000s there generally wasn't much difference, and I played all state of art games on laptops until then. Even in early 2007 when I bought a 2GB Ram laptop (specs unusually high at the time), I was caught out ignorant on the limitations of the Intel GMA chipset and trapped with a $40 copy of EU3 I couldn't play. This was designed to save power (useless to me as I always had it plugged in), but I guess the market must have changed ... graphics management got more intense and it has not been profitable to make desktop market sacrifices for those with normal laptops. But, to reiterate, that is relatively new (esp. for games like this).

Oh yeah, a lot of laptops have been capable of supporting games. Some even had a semi-decent graphics card to support this. But they were never meant for it and I think someone who likes to game on PCs should still have a desktop computer.

I also wonder why you have a laptop if you're always plugged in, or are you plugged in at work/elsewhere too sometimes? :p I know some lady friends of mine had a laptop but never moved it off it's place. I was always confused why they bought a laptop if they don't use it's mobility.
 
I think we can go on with that "no, it is YOU who doesn't understand" for eternity. ;)
If you tell us that it will look completly different at the end - okay, guess we have no other option to trust you and wait & see anyways.

No, really. He said:
I'm sorry it's shame to post this in 2011 year with such pride like in the 1st post, and telling about innovations.I'm sorry it's true. Its 8-bit gameboy zombies strikes from the swamp

He was saying the graphics look dated so there's no "innovations", but my point was the innovation shown there isn't the general graphics, it's the tabard system where troops wear the tabard of their liege. That was the part he didn't understand. It's utterly pointless to comment on their other graphics as if they are final as they are (almost?) all placeholders or works in progress.
 
I noticed a mistake in your second developer screenshot, so I took the liberty of fixing it.

the portrait system actually supports scripting in the Ulm guy as ruler of ulm looking like that (and make his descendants look like him too) so I hope someone does that if we dont :D (actually you can even make him pop out different speech bubbles using triggers when stuff happens to his country).
 
the portrait system actually supports scripting in the Ulm guy as ruler of ulm looking like that (and make his descendants look like him too) so I hope someone does that if we dont :D (actually you can even make him pop out different speech bubbles using triggers when stuff happens to his country).

What.

I can already see the hilarity. :D
 
(actually you can even make him pop out different speech bubbles using triggers when stuff happens to his country).

Speech bubbles? I think this could get rather dangerous!

I can already see the bubles of profanity in my head on revolting vassals ;)
 
I noticed a mistake in your second developer screenshot, so I took the liberty of fixing it.

Yes! This is how Ulm is supposed to show on the map.

Furthermore:

the portrait system actually supports scripting in the Ulm guy as ruler of ulm looking like that (and make his descendants look like him too) so I hope someone does that if we dont (actually you can even make him pop out different speech bubbles using triggers when stuff happens to his country).

You really should make a smiley that expresses pure joy (tears streaming down its massively dilated pupils), for situations like this. For now I must make do with :D :D :D :D :D :D ad infinitum.
 
Sadly, I must say I find this map as a step back from Victoria II map. Rotating camera and undersea topography is nice but hardly useful in a Paradox strategy game. It still does not look 'bad' (as in EU III graphics pre-DW. Dear God, no!) and I'm holding my breath for political map-mode screenshots as that is what I play on anyway. :)
 
Will weather effects show up on the terrain map? I think some light/heavy cloud cover, drought effects, rain and snow storms, and changing seasons would look really great, if included in the game. I would also like to see the map portray provinces that are under siege, or pillaged, or suffering from various plagues.

I also want to see that comet streak across the sky, when applicable :)
 
Speech bubbles? I think this could get rather dangerous!

I can already see the bubles of profanity in my head on revolting vassals ;)

just to clarify, we dont actually have speach bubbles in CK2, but it would be possible to mod it into the portrait system for ulm etc. figured it might be a good idea to point this out before the rumor-mobile kicked into 2nd gear.
 
the portrait system actually supports scripting in the Ulm guy as ruler of ulm looking like that (and make his descendants look like him too) so I hope someone does that if we dont :D (actually you can even make him pop out different speech bubbles using triggers when stuff happens to his country).

Best... news... ever....
 
"Hi! I see you are trying to raise an army. Would you like help with that?".

"No!"
"Are you sure??"
"YES!!"
"Army recruitment can be tricky, and I can really help"
"SHUT UP!!!"
"That answer doesn't compite, please try again"

..... burns monitor

aahhh, how sad life would be without everyone's favorite paperclip/Ulm guy :)
 
For Victoria 2 we looked at having multiple soldiers. The reason we decided not have them was partly aesthetic, the soldiers became to small and that looked bad. But the main reason was performance. one soldier has about 25 bones for animation. with 6 soldiers you have 150. For each unit on the map! This is a lot of vertex calculation calculations to make! And at times there will be very many units on the map at once and it would be unsustainable.

you might say, but Victoria 1 had groups, and so dose Civ 5.

- Well, in Victoria 1 they were a single pre-rendered 2d sprite, which is just not viable option anymore.
- And in Civ 5, there are no where near the amount of units on the map, compared to a Paradox game.

But for every game we re-review things like this, and see if we can be done. We have dreams too, but we can't do the impossible.

Maybe you (paradox) can "mirror" the animation so its only a copy of the original. Nba 2k games (lika nba2k) have the stadium`s crowd like this. A lot of viewers are doing the same, are the same model, but when playing, you didnt care, and its a very nice effect.

example:
http://www.monodetrescabezas.com/wp-content/gallery/nba2k10/nba-2k10-2-large.jpg
http://nba-live.com/jaosming/nba2k10 2009-10-26 07-38-02-67.jpg

Sorry, i could not explain better with my current level of english.