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unmerged(43915)

Aspiring Global Hegemon
May 4, 2005
638
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I don't see a thread up of this nature, but it seems like an obvious topic, especially given the announcement of King Arthur 2.

First off, interpret my criticism from this perspective. I really enjoy the RPG aspects of King Arthur. I understand how the original game was not intended to be a serious grand strategy title, and that many of the game mechanics work in a variety of odd ways specifically because that was not the goal. And, once I figured out what was going on, I came to appreciate and respect the decisions made by the designers on a variety of topics.

However, I think there are some things that could be improved.

1) Sorting units by ethnicity is a great idea, but it is implemented oddly. Why should all Welsh units be better than all Briton units in every way, for example? Different is fine. Different is good. But across the board better? I understand, from the RPG perspective, that making them available is a form of leveling up. However, its still jarring, and I think better handled through various forms of eliteness or specialness.

2) On that note, having the ethnicity of knights, and army leaders, tied into the performance of the units in that army would add another interesting layer. One of the games strengths is the heavy amount of unit detail, and the opportunity that gives for complicated balancing acts. Adding one more intuitively reasonable layer of balancing that must be accomplished just adds more to the game. Anything that forces players to make their armies kludges of convenience and circumstance, rather than the best possible maxed-out death-stack, is a positive in my opinion. This would also give extra value to the non-ethnic-coded generic units, that are improved by upgrading - and thus give more value to upgrading. As is, why go for good bows if you know you're going to get the Welsh Bowmen soon?

3) I like the distinctiveness of the factions in terms of units available and weapon assortment - better Welsh archers, better Saxon horse. More of this wouldn't hurt, especially if they're balanced.

4) More unique units. They make the armies more personal, and the leveling all the more cool. For example, when you get Balin, he comes with a unit of Golden Gryphons, which will be unavailable until MUCH later in the game. This squad is special. It's better than all the other heavy infantries in my armies, and I pay attention to it and its usage. This is cool, and should be encouraged. Perhaps quests whose payoff is a unique squad?

5) The tactical battles are a blast, and one of the games best features. However, I hear reports that magic breaks them, making lossless victories possible. Those who know how this is done can comment at greater length on this. However, the possibility of lossless victories points to the presence of exploitable gimmicks. The fewer of these the better. For example, if the AI can't be made competent in dealing with Sidhe Roads, then cut it. It's cool, but if it's game breaking it shouldn't stay. Some losses should be expected even from a good win.

6) Speaking of a good win, in the current game it usually means a total kill of the enemy. While cool and all, this is ridiculously unrealistic. No armies fight to the man. I really don't know how complicated or difficult it would be to have morale lead to breakage and reatreat, and I would rather keep something that works rather than break it to be more "realistic." However, a system where units break and run when they're clearly outmatched, opening up tactical opportunities on the battlefield, would add a new element to the game and keep it from seeming too much the same. Also, it would give cavalry another bit of usefulness, as one of their main roles is always chasing down retreats, or exploiting the holes that result.

7) No matter what its relative standing regarding battle strength, the AI goes for a decisive showdown in battle. It sends units for the victory locations, but it rarely tries for defensive or evasive tactics. That makes the battles much easier, as the AI can be relied upon to never stay with advantageous positions. I know there's one map with a river down the middle, and the AI loves to sit with archer-heavy armies watching the two crossing points, waiting to cut you down. That's a nasty battle because the AI plays it right, but that map seems to be the only one where it really takes advantage of a strong defensive point. The stronghold battles in particular seem odd - what's the point of a fortress that doesn't give the defenders an advantage?

8) Minor interface tweak - on the upgrades screen, it tells you what units will be available in the future, but there's no way to see what those units will be. I want to know what I'm spending money to get. Why spend to get Longaxes if I don't know what they are?

9) The XP point generating zones can be abused easily. There's no reason to allow that.

10) I've heard that the enemy heroes are toned down. Why? Also, they tend to come with very odd assortments of abilities, which tend to be distinctly sub-optimal. If I have a quest battle versus a nasty hero, he/she should be truly nasty.

11) The extensive set of buildings available in Strongholds is cool, however it's really not clear how they work/don't work when you have multiple strongholds. Further, improvements in particular towns and sites might also be cool.

12) A way to view my unit maintenance costs in a more detailed way, on both a monthly and yearly basis, would be nice.

13) Speaking of maintenance . . . from a game balance perspective, having the Unseelie units consume vast quantities of food makes sense . . . but the idea that 12 archers need three times as much food as a company of horse is just silly. Could the maintenance be made more gold-dependent, or is that really the only way to balance it?
 
A few points:

1) Welsh Bowmen have better Accuracy and Ranged Damage than Master Longbowmen, but ML have better Armour, HP, Melee Damage, Ranged Defence and Resistance. If the enemy can get into melee with WB, they die like flies. ML actually have a chance of holding out until you can get some reinforcements to help them. This is balanced because it depends on what you want: Do you prefer high-damage but weak WB, or the lower-damage but tougher ML?
Welsh Infantry are actually one of the weakest heavy infantry units in the game. Breakshields Elite are just superior in every aspect. Their only advantage is a good selection of Special Abilities, like Magic Resistance and Ranger.
Saxon Huscarls may have better stats than any other spearman unit but their weakness is the smallest unit size of any spearman unit.
Saxon Riders: Their advantage is higher damage than the Cavalry Elite, and their weakness is a very low Armour value.

The point? None of the ethnic units are just plain better. All of them have good points and bad points (except WI, which just plain suck).

8) There is a way to see the unit you get from research: hold the mouse cursor over that small shield at the bottom of the research box. It's a poorly documented feature - I only discovered this by accident.

10) I'm pretty sure the enemy heroes are only toned down on Beginner and Easy difficulties. Play a Very Hard game - the enemy knights *will* make you cry like a little girl.

11) Multiple stronghold upgrades are simply additive: for example, if you had 3 Royal Workshops, you would get +45% Research points, each RW giving +15% Research points. It's not stated explicitly anywhere, that's true.
 
I don't see a thread up of this nature, but it seems like an obvious topic, especially given the announcement of King Arthur 2.

First off, interpret my criticism from this perspective. I really enjoy the RPG aspects of King Arthur. I understand how the original game was not intended to be a serious grand strategy title, and that many of the game mechanics work in a variety of odd ways specifically because that was not the goal. And, once I figured out what was going on, I came to appreciate and respect the decisions made by the designers on a variety of topics.

However, I think there are some things that could be improved.

1) Sorting units by ethnicity is a great idea, but it is implemented oddly. Why should all Welsh units be better than all Briton units in every way, for example? Different is fine. Different is good. But across the board better? I understand, from the RPG perspective, that making them available is a form of leveling up. However, its still jarring, and I think better handled through various forms of eliteness or specialness.

Bascily you are correct. But this is not TW, this is exactly kind of RPGish game.

2) On that note, having the ethnicity of knights, and army leaders, tied into the performance of the units in that army would add another interesting layer. One of the games strengths is the heavy amount of unit detail, and the opportunity that gives for complicated balancing acts. Adding one more intuitively reasonable layer of balancing that must be accomplished just adds more to the game. Anything that forces players to make their armies kludges of convenience and circumstance, rather than the best possible maxed-out death-stack, is a positive in my opinion. This would also give extra value to the non-ethnic-coded generic units, that are improved by upgrading - and thus give more value to upgrading. As is, why go for good bows if you know you're going to get the Welsh Bowmen soon?

2. Again as in 1). There is no RPG if you get all the best stuff from the beginning. And knowing you will at some point you are going to get better stuff don't make you run naked on the battlefield (why bother getting armor when at some point you will get beter armor)

3) I like the distinctiveness of the factions in terms of units available and weapon assortment - better Welsh archers, better Saxon horse. More of this wouldn't hurt, especially if they're balanced.

3. The keyword is "balanced". In this game the archers rule in the beginign but are next to useless in the end. Who will play about the some nation archers when they will be able to crush everything with army of 16 saxon horsemen?

4) More unique units. They make the armies more personal, and the leveling all the more cool. For example, when you get Balin, he comes with a unit of Golden Gryphons, which will be unavailable until MUCH later in the game. This squad is special. It's better than all the other heavy infantries in my armies, and I pay attention to it and its usage. This is cool, and should be encouraged. Perhaps quests whose payoff is a unique squad?

4.I kinda agree. Everyone likes better quest rewards. But I think the developpers now are trying to balance the quest rewards with pros and cons. If you were able to get a lot of super duper units from them relatively quickly everyone will finish the quests in this way only and soone the human player will crush everything on the map. Now you are forced to choose - to get a knight or to get an powerful artifact or to get +\- stats...

5) The tactical battles are a blast, and one of the games best features. However, I hear reports that magic breaks them, making lossless victories possible. Those who know how this is done can comment at greater length on this. However, the possibility of lossless victories points to the presence of exploitable gimmicks. The fewer of these the better. For example, if the AI can't be made competent in dealing with Sidhe Roads, then cut it. It's cool, but if it's game breaking it shouldn't stay. Some losses should be expected even from a good win.

5)Agree. There are several spells which are game breakers. Sidhe roads between them. Soul mirror comes next.

6) Speaking of a good win, in the current game it usually means a total kill of the enemy. While cool and all, this is ridiculously unrealistic. No armies fight to the man. I really don't know how complicated or difficult it would be to have morale lead to breakage and reatreat, and I would rather keep something that works rather than break it to be more "realistic." However, a system where units break and run when they're clearly outmatched, opening up tactical opportunities on the battlefield, would add a new element to the game and keep it from seeming too much the same. Also, it would give cavalry another bit of usefulness, as one of their main roles is always chasing down retreats, or exploiting the holes that result.
Knock, knock! Who's there? I almost never suceed to kill all the enemy units on the battlefied. Even when I try hard because I need the kills (to unlock an artifact etc).

7) No matter what its relative standing regarding battle strength, the AI goes for a decisive showdown in battle. It sends units for the victory locations, but it rarely tries for defensive or evasive tactics. That makes the battles much easier, as the AI can be relied upon to never stay with advantageous positions. I know there's one map with a river down the middle, and the AI loves to sit with archer-heavy armies watching the two crossing points, waiting to cut you down. That's a nasty battle because the AI plays it right, but that map seems to be the only one where it really takes advantage of a strong defensive point. The stronghold battles in particular seem odd - what's the point of a fortress that doesn't give the defenders an advantage?

7)The main problem for the AI is it always tries to attack no matter if it has an upper hand in the VL and just have to sit tight and defend. On the other hand quite often when it attacks and starts to get heavy losses it starts just to "wonder" what to do. The resuts - the AI units just try to advacne, then start to retreat only to start advancing again before next retreat etc. It is true - I yet have to see a game with perfect AI and I suppose a small hungarian company mau not be able to afford the resourses to make a better AI. Still if just the AI was "smart" enough" to sit in defence when it has more VL the battles would be much more challenging.
8) Minor interface tweak - on the upgrades screen, it tells you what units will be available in the future, but there's no way to see what those units will be. I want to know what I'm spending money to get. Why spend to get Longaxes if I don't know what they are?

8)You mean "research" screen? It will be nice although it is quite minor problem. Not to mention the dead end researches are very few. Most of the research options are chained. But an addional info about the units will not hurt.
9) The XP point generating zones can be abused easily. There's no reason to allow that.
9) +100 on this! Who need battles and quests for XP when just sitting on a +XP spot with a single 4 levels area lore knight gives much better results:-(

10) I've heard that the enemy heroes are toned down. Why? Also, they tend to come with very odd assortments of abilities, which tend to be distinctly sub-optimal. If I have a quest battle versus a nasty hero, he/she should be truly nasty.

10) Without "soul mirror" spell OR 100% magic resistance the enemy heroes can be quite nasty in the battle. Also the problem there is the human player streamlines for the best heroes efficience. Unlike this the AI goes for an assortment of skills some of which are complettely or at least relatively useless.

11) The extensive set of buildings available in Strongholds is cool, however it's really not clear how they work/don't work when you have multiple strongholds. Further, improvements in particular towns and sites might also be cool.
11) +1 here

12) A way to view my unit maintenance costs in a more detailed way, on both a monthly and yearly basis, would be nice.

12) +1 here. Although it seems if you don't spam armies like the AI does the costs are not that important.

13) Speaking of maintenance . . . from a game balance perspective, having the Unseelie units consume vast quantities of food makes sense . . . but the idea that 12 archers need three times as much food as a company of horse is just silly. Could the maintenance be made more gold-dependent, or is that really the only way to balance it?

13) Lol! Never thought about this. I guess the archers use the "food" to make arrows:)


8) There is a way to see the unit you get from research: hold the mouse cursor over that small shield at the bottom of the research box. It's a poorly documented feature - I only discovered this by accident.

Grrrr.... *much* better manual. Now we just have to make wild guesses - how is this working, does it work at all and is this a bug or a feature.
Ohh - a proper translation too. Now there are a lot of controversies between descriptions, game hints, developer forums posts. There should be an unified description for all the skills for heroes, artifacts and units. Now some artifact bonuses are shown as working only if equipped on leader of the army but other artifact bonuses are said to work on "hero army" which implies the bonus exists even if the artifact is equipped on every hero.
Overall I have the impression the translation are made by two different people. One of them was careful enough to make difference between "army leader" and "hero army" and the other seems to think it is the same (I guess the second translator was a woman - they are not much into warfare)
 
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Originally Posted by Zwackus
13) Speaking of maintenance . . . from a game balance perspective, having the Unseelie units consume vast quantities of food makes sense . . . but the idea that 12 archers need three times as much food as a company of horse is just silly. Could the maintenance be made more gold-dependent, or is that really the only way to balance it?
13) Lol! Never thought about this. I guess the archers use the "food" to make arrows:)

Actually, they distribute the extra food they're not eating to the poor (after taking it from the rich knight).;)

Originally Posted by Zwackus
7) No matter what its relative standing regarding battle strength, the AI goes for a decisive showdown in battle. It sends units for the victory locations, but it rarely tries for defensive or evasive tactics. That makes the battles much easier, as the AI can be relied upon to never stay with advantageous positions. I know there's one map with a river down the middle, and the AI loves to sit with archer-heavy armies watching the two crossing points, waiting to cut you down. That's a nasty battle because the AI plays it right, but that map seems to be the only one where it really takes advantage of a strong defensive point. The stronghold battles in particular seem odd - what's the point of a fortress that doesn't give the defenders an advantage?
7)The main problem for the AI is it always tries to attack no matter if it has an upper hand in the VL and just have to sit tight and defend. On the other hand quite often when it attacks and starts to get heavy losses it starts just to "wonder" what to do. The resuts - the AI units just try to advacne, then start to retreat only to start advancing again before next retreat etc. It is true - I yet have to see a game with perfect AI and I suppose a small hungarian company mau not be able to afford the resourses to make a better AI. Still if just the AI was "smart" enough" to sit in defence when it has more VL the battles would be much more challenging.

If the enemy can cap VLs with destructive powers: CoS or Lightning, then they will sit on them and wait for you to attack, especially if they have more VLs than you. There's one map with a river bisecting it and three VLs on the enemy side: CoS, Lightning, and Village. You have two on your side: a village and a mill, if I remember correctly. The enemy will rush to occupy their side's VLs before you can get your two (unless you have sidhe roads) and then just sit there waiting for you to attack. They have their terrain covered, usually by archers as well as the spell radius.

The only way I've found around this was to quickly and quietly occupy the village on their side before they can get to it, then hide my unit in the nearby forest so that they couldn't cap my newly acquired VL. With autofire off, my hidden unit remains where they are placed: hidden, but protects the VL from being turned to the enemy.

Then, with 3 VLs to their two, I can just wait it out at 4x and watch the enemy's morale slowly diminish (or go grab a drink, etc. then come back).

The enemy tries to grab that VL on their side, but can't with my unit hidden close by. It's funny to watch them attempt it. My point is that the AI is doing everything it can to maintain the upper hand: waiting for you to attack a superior defensive location.
 
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Thanks for the reasoned commentary.

First off, thanks for the response. And, feel free to make your own completely un-related suggestions. Better to collect them all on a single forum.

Regarding the unit balance, I suppose it's a bit more balanced than I'd realized . . . in part because since I lack many of the units under discussion in my own game, I haven't been able to make clear comparisons. Some sort of "civilopedia" type in-game index, maybe windowed and accessible via hyperlinks, would be nice.

And as the game is supposed to be RPGish, having more advanced units available later in the game is obviously important. It just seems like there's more balancing work that could be done in interesting ways with ethnically-coded units. Perhaps available only in limited numbers, only granted a single time after a particular quest is accomplished, only can be recruited in particular locations, etc. Say, after you conquer Wales, you have the option to get one set of Welsh Bows - and that's that.

I guess that, generally speaking, I'm suggesting that it might be more interesting from an army composition perspective if there was some sort of re-balancing of power versus availability, so that cool and elite sounding units are limited not just in time (not made available until later in the game) but also in quantity, and perhaps with a bit of randomness involved. Random events can have their probabilities balanced so that they're not likely to happen too early or too often, preventing a surplus of unique unit types available too early. Or, the unique units provided could be balanced to gain FAR more from promotion than normal units, and perhaps at a slower rate, so that even though they are available early, they're not that powerful until later in the game after they've leveled. And if the random event they are tied to is hard enough, then getting something nice seems like a just reward.

As far as my comments on tactical battles go, I suppose I should clarify that I'm playing on normal, and that hard and very hard are likely different. I'm never a fan of gamey tactics, or really seriously thinking through min-max situations to their final conclusion, as they typically lead to utter silliness. Thus, I rarely bother with higher difficulty levels - but maybe King Arthur will be different. I'll try it on hard my next playthrough.
 
In my Very Hard playthrough I am having a hard time just because the AI has more mana than me.

Until playing at highest difficulty, I know magic can be very powerful, but not to this extent. Triple stacked Curse of Shadows, 10,000 HP and 300 mana? God help us.
The magic system is very abusable if all they did is direct damage. I really prefer if they tone down the attacking and made it support-based magic.
 
As for the top units they are not available "later" in the game, they are available when you get to very extremities of governing/religion. As the Lady of the Lake hints you cannot conquer Britannia if you stay in the neutral zone - being somewhat tyrant or somewhat christian.
Even on "normal" difficulty with the magic abuse you will have very hard times against 16 ghost units if you are still with the lower tier units.
 
Beg to differ. Magic is way overpowered and the AI fails to properly use countermeasures on any difficulty. because of the magic, there is no need for complicated tactics. There is no need for adapting the army composition to counter the enemy. I was actually fearing the ghosts, having read so much about them. But I needed change nothing - they will fall for the magic just like any unit. I don't even bother with an army - 4 heroes in a stack with some decent knights or heavy cavalry attached, proper artifacts (of which there are way too much) and the four heroes will beat anything once they have acces to the right magic skills/spells. I don't bother with other abilities than magic the first 20 levels for ANY hero. Mana will win the day.

I like the game. It has tremendous potential. There are concepts in there that are a lesson to other designers in how to make a good tactical battle game. But magic breaks it, and makes battles repetitive because any battle on any difficulty is easily defeated with zero casualties. Boring - you can stick with one tactic for the entire game after book 1. Magic takes away any sense of accomplishment on beating the big battles that advance the storyline. Magic, in stead of opening a whole set of new variables in battle that make for a more changing, complex environment that would force a player to be alert and thinking throughout because the need to adapt is ever present, in stead has DIMINISHED the number of tactical options - because it will work, exactly the effective same as before.

You mileage will not vary.
 
Paradox has a small group of dedicated fans for its games. But the "small" groups of dedicated fans pay even less (because the games are with discount) then the large groups of non-dedicated fans. If you need a proof check the Gamefaqs - this game is one of the few games which still have not a single FAQ submitted. The game have great potential but at the same time it have big number of issues - starting from non-existing infopedia (a must for such complicated games), the fatal bugs (very few players will buy a game and will wait several months to be able to play), the lack of balance (the overpowered magic and the abuse of XP locations - my heroes sitting on XP location are lvl 38 until my battle heroes are lvl 18-22), the frustration of the players due to the possibility to unlock and enter chapters which are not intended to be entered yet (every RPG have a system which guides the player and prevents him from going where it is not supposed to be), the broken autocalculate - I am forced to battle manually practically all of the battles (the autocalculate even don't counts the heroes captured and warriors killed when it is needed for the artifacts and making 5-6 battles per turn is tedious work not a pleasure), the inadequate AI on some maps (often an enemy melee squad just stands still until it is totally killed by the archers etc).
Hope this may be useful for the developers for the next instalment.
 
a download able game manual would be a great thing for pradox to start putting online for every game they make, its just helpful and dosent have to spol the game like cheats that make up for the lack of manuals do.