Dev question: Korea and the Imjin War

[ohnoitsalex]

The 'developer comments'-section mentions a startdate of 1471 for the game. It is probably not wrong to assume that with the standard 1-day-per-turn time system the end date will be considerably later than 1592, the year Toyotomi Hideyoshi invaded Korea in what is known today as the Imjin War. This war ended up being a disaster for both Korea and Japan, and ruined the ruling Toyotomi clan - So it cannot be said to have no significance in a Japanese-focused game.

So far there have been no comments confirming or denying the inclusion of this war. Is the dev team considering to 'unlock' the Korean peninsula (with Korea as a non-playable entity) in any game during which a faction unites Japan? The combined Joseon/Ming forces would make an excellent endboss and keep things interesting after having achieved so much (a common problem in paradox games)!

 

[safferli]

The map we saw (baring in mind, it's an alpha map and I have no inside information whatsoever) didn't show Korea. So, I guess the Korean war will be ignored. It could be simulated by an event chain, though.

 

[ohnoitsalex]

The map we saw (baring in mind, it's an alpha map and I have no inside information whatsoever) didn't show Korea. So, I guess the Korean war will be ignored. It could be simulated by an event chain, though.

That would be horrible. Imagine having the crusades in Crusader Kings simulated like that! But yeah, I suppose it's possible, and that's why I'll remain worried until I hear a developer speak on this issue.

 

[khannate]

I am against the idea of including the invasion of Korea, since if it is included, then the aim of the game will change from the unification of Japan to the conquest of China, because for the players there is no point for not invading Korea (and hence China) as this game has a heavy enphasis on wars. The coquest of China is highly unhistorical, and to make the invasion possible but the conquest impossible, is difficult to recreate (just remenber how China is conquered by Japan in every game in HOI2). Yes, NOT being able to invade the continent is also unhistorical, but to me this is better than the other option.

In addition, if they are to include Korea, China and so on, then they have to recreate the historical events in those countries, e.g. civil war in China, the invasion of Manchu, Southern Ming resistance and so on. This cannnot be easily done, and I would much prefer if they just concentrate on Japan.

I instead hope that this game includes the events after the unification, such as the consolidation of the power of shogun, demilitarisation of Japan, establishment of the control over the emperor and the religions, such that failing in one of these may cause the nation to go back to Sengoku era. This would make the game more challenging and interesting.

 

[ZhugeKongming]

I am against the idea of including the invasion of Korea, since if it is included, then the aim of the game will change from the unification of Japan to the conquest of China, because for the players there is no point for not invading Korea (and hence China) as this game has a heavy enphasis on wars. The coquest of China is highly unhistorical, and to make the invasion possible but the conquest impossible, is difficult to recreate (just remenber how China is conquered by Japan in every game in HOI2). Yes, NOT being able to invade the continent is also unhistorical, but to me this is better than the other option.

In addition, if they are to include Korea, China and so on, then they have to recreate the historical events in those countries, e.g. civil war in China, the invasion of Manchu, Southern Ming resistance and so on. This cannnot be easily done, and I would much prefer if they just concentrate on Japan.

I instead hope that this game includes the events after the unification, such as the consolidation of the power of shogun, demilitarisation of Japan, establishment of the control over the emperor and the religions, such that failing in one of these may cause the nation to go back to Sengoku era. This would make the game more challenging and interesting.

All good points.

I will also add that Korea and China were more or less completely irrelevant to the Sengoku period until Hideyoshi's invasion. I don't think it's a good idea to add a region to the game that will just sit there passively until it's invaded by the player. If they want to make Joseon Korea interesting to play in its own right, that's one thing, but the idea that many posters are floating of having Korea as an "end game goal" is bad for gameplay IMO.

 

[Blastaz]

That would be horrible. Imagine having the crusades in Crusader Kings simulated like that! But yeah, I suppose it's possible, and that's why I'll remain worried until I hear a developer speak on this issue.

It would be roughly the same as simulating the mongol invasion of Europe and the Middle East as just having some really big stacks popping up on the east of the map wouldn't it...

Also on the alpha map status, if the game really is coming out in 6 months, you can't really expect the game to change as fundamentally as that can you?

Personally I think it is a sensible decison. If you wanted to simulate one war with China and Korea by putting both countries on the map then you would be expanding the scope of the game many times. And really all the flavour in Japan would be pointless if you could just play as China and crush the entire island in 20 years. The game is about your rise to power in Japan, not what you do when you get there.

 

[Negru Voda]

The game is about your rise to power in Japan, not what you do when you get there.

hear! hear!

I expect modders will work with the map soon enough after the release, to add surrounding lands so that it won't look like Japan is lost at sea. But personally I don't care. In fact I think the lost at sea situation adds to the atmosphere of isolation. Add to that a good traditional Japanese music score (paradox has never let us down with their music choices). And also add a nice interface, with pretty clicks that sound like unrolling bamboo paper, and you're getting into the mentality already.

 

[ohnoitsalex]

Is everyone just reading half of my posts? I never said anything about including a ton of events for the other two countries (at least during their 'inactive' phase in the game), or playing as China or WHATEVER.

This is what I suggested, again: Play on a map of Japan until it's unified, then AFTER it's unified, unlock the Korean peninsula as an UNPLAYABLE entity to the west of it. While it's hidden away, no unit movements or character developments or anything would have to be simulated at all, all of that would be generated when Korea is activated. I realize that Toyotomi wanted to invade China, primarily, but even if he had been successful in Korea, he probably would have found his hands quite full with that (there was quite a bit of resistance against the Japanese). So expeditions from Korea into China should not be far-reaching and could be simulated by event, I'll agree with that.

One thing I'd like to adress specifically is the 'Mongol' comparison by Blastaz, because not displaying the Japanese invasion of Korea would have been exactly the opposite thing: With the Mongols, you don't care where they come from, but have to tactically deal with their forces by using what you have built up so far. With Korea, you build up an army and then don't care where it goes. I know which one is more fun!

 

[semaphore]

If Korea ever makes it into the game it could be implemented similarly to Muslims in CK, an unplayable faction for you to go to war against. That works pretty well for CK, but of course CK is sort of built around crusades against Muslims while Korea is at most peripheral to Sengoku.

Don't get me wrong I agree it's definitely cool to have, but not exactly essential to the Sengoku era per se. So if Paradox decides that resources are better spent elsewhere, then that's a reasonable decision too.

 

[chatnoir17]

The war against Korea and China was not the "manifest destiny" of Japan in the sengoku era.
Many daimyos wanted rather trade with Korean and Chinese or raiding their lands, and they fought in Korea simply because their overload Hideyoshi ordered it.
After his death Tokugawa Ieyasu and his successors closed Japan and recovered diplomatic relationship with Korea instead of restarting the war .

So I think the war in korean penninsula is not one of the absolute factors for the japanocentralized game like Sengoku.
In addition if the game would have korean map, players wouldn't satisfy with it and want more and more, China, Manchu, Southeastasia, India...).

 

[ohnoitsalex]

In addition if the game would have korean map, players wouldn't satisfy with it and want more and more, China, Manchu, Southeastasia, India...).

That's a VERY bold assumption. Noone except you ever said anything about Southeastern Asia (!) or India (!!), and even the few suggestions I've seen for China to be represented territorially were all related to the (historically relevant) Imjin war. The whole Three Kingdoms-speculation died when project Glory was revealed to be a Japan-centered game.

 

[Zechariah Zevi]

The war against Korea and China was not the "manifest destiny" of Japan in the sengoku era.
Many daimyos wanted rather trade with Korean and Chinese or raiding their lands, and they fought in Korea simply because their overload Hideyoshi ordered it.
After his death Tokugawa Ieyasu and his successors closed Japan and recovered diplomatic relationship with Korea instead of restarting the war .

So I think the war in korean penninsula is not one of the absolute factors for the japanocentralized game like Sengoku.
In addition if the game would have korean map, players wouldn't satisfy with it and want more and more, China, Manchu, Southeastasia, India...).

Two points:

(1) Why should players be forced to do what Tokugawa did?
(2) Why would people not be satisfied with it? This is a random assumption which you have made and I have no idea why.

 

[chatnoir17]

That's a VERY bold assumption. Noone except you ever said anything about Southeastern Asia (!) or India (!!), and even the few suggestions I've seen for China to be represented territorially were all related to the (historically relevant) Imjin war.

Maybe expect me and Hideyoshi, since he ordered Phillip II to come to Japan and pay tribute (!).

 

[chatnoir17]

Two points:

(1) Why should players be forced to do what Tokugawa did?
(2) Why would people not be satisfied with it? This is a random assumption which you have made and I have no idea why.

Yes, these are my assumption, but I don't see why only Korea or some provinces of China should be included.
I could also ask why should players be forced to do what Hideyoshi did?
Since we have already EU3 DW as such a world wide game, I would rahter see the compatibility of savedatas to EU3 than playable asian continent in Sengoku.

 

[semaphore]

(1) Why should players be forced to do what Tokugawa did?

Well Sakoku is after the Sengoku era, so beyond the scope of the game. Imjin can marginally fit in (the game, not era), but that depends on the timeline, which hasn't been announced yet I think.

 

[ohnoitsalex]

Yes, these are my assumption, but I don't see why only Korea or some provinces of China should be included.
Since we have already EU3 DW as such a world wide game, I would rahter see the compatibility of savedatas to EU3 than playable asian continent in Sengoku.

By that logic the Middle East might as well be excluded from Crusader Kings, since Europa Universalis handles the non-christian parts of the world already! I would rather have an enjoyable standalone game than unconditional save-game compatibility (which, from my experience with previous games that supposedly had it, doesn't really mean much, anyway ).

Also, read this again, for the third time:

NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A PLAYABLE ASIAN CONTINENT.
You are making things up to suit your argumentation.

 

[Zechariah Zevi]

Well Sakoku is after the Sengoku era, so beyond the scope of the game. Imjin can marginally fit in (the game, not era), but that depends on the timeline, which hasn't been announced yet I think.

Considering it's after the Sengoku era by some twenty to thirty years, I don't think one can simply dismiss it as being irrelevant unless the game doesn't deal with the whole period (which we don't know yet) or is totally historically determined as to when the era ends. Either way, it's not a consideration which should be forced upon the player.

chatnoir: I don't think your assumption and the arguments based upon it are relevant to the discussion. If someone were to suggest that the 'whole Asian continent' be included, then it would be a valid point, but no one has.

 

[chatnoir17]

By that logic the Middle East might as well be excluded from Crusader Kings, since Europa Universalis handles the non-christian parts of the world already!

The thema of CK was the representation of european feudal system(s) and crusaders against muslims, as far as I understand. And the timeline of Ck has many crusades.
On the other hand the thema of Sengoku would be mainly the representation of the sengoku era, but not conflicts with Korea or China, these were also important elements in this period, though.

Also, read this again, for the third time:

NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A PLAYABLE ASIAN CONTINENT.
You are making things up to suit your argumentation.

With "playable asian continent" I meant the continent where players can conquer. Middle East in CK is not playable in your definition, but playable in mine. I should clarified it. However I don't like unplayable factions.

 

[semaphore]

Considering it's after the Sengoku era by some twenty to thirty years, I don't think one can simply dismiss it as being irrelevant unless the game doesn't deal with the whole period (which we don't know yet) or is totally historically determined as to when the era ends. Either way, it's not a consideration which should be forced upon the player.

Well, the game is going to have a set end date. But more importantly, it is focused on the internal struggles of Sengoku Japan. What you do with the country once it is unified is not the point, so in that sense whether you pursue Sakoku or embrace modernity is firmly outside the game's scope.

Imjin War is slightly different, in that it partly grew out of a need to dispose of the highly militarised society that came into existence at the end of the era. So a ruler could go, 'Hey I need a way to keep my samurai/ashigaru occupied now that demand for their expertise has crashed... I know! A foreign war stimulus!' But again it is not particularly relevant to the core game itself.

 

[chatnoir17]

chatnoir: I don't think your assumption and the arguments based upon it are relevant to the discussion. If someone were to suggest that the 'whole Asian continent' be included, then it would be a valid point, but no one has.

I understand your point. My question is where should be the geographical border if Sengoku could represent wars in the asian continent.
Developers have already said "conquering the world is the goal". Conquering Japan suits this statement, even it is a very small world though. But conquering only Korea can't do, since both countries belong to larger eastasian world.